I have a few questions, maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but here it goes....
How do religious people explain all the wonderful things that happen in an atheist life?
I think they call them blessings.
Would they agree that maybe their god loves us and rewards us? But, how is that possible? Aren't non-believers supposed to be suffering because god punishes people like us?
What delusional answer could they possibly have to explain how a person is happy, prosperous and healthy without the grace or will of a god?
I think what some like to think is that people choose to live good happy and godless lives on Earth but will suffer for their godlessness in the afterlife. Funny vindictive godly wishful thinking going on there...
Well....
Some Christians are Theological Determinists.
And some Christians are Inclusivists.
And some Christians are Religious Pluralists.
The worst suffering doesn't come until after your dead.
Quote from: magdalena on November 05, 2011, 05:02:37 AM
I have a few questions, maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but here it goes....
How do religious people explain all the wonderful things that happen in an atheist life?
I think they call them blessings.
Would they agree that maybe their god loves us and rewards us? But, how is that possible? Aren't non-believers supposed to be suffering because god punishes people like us?
What delusional answer could they possibly have to explain how a person is happy, prosperous and healthy without the grace or will of a god?
This question is interesting to me because I'm going through a study of Job now. Job's friends claim that he must have done something evil because God was obviously punishing him. Their theology was basically that "the good are blessed and the evil are cursed." At a couple of places, however, Job challenges that assumption and points out that some people who in their book would be considered "evil" were actually doing quite well.
Jesus took a different view of things and pointed out in Matthew 5:45 when he taught that God gives sunlight and rain ("blessings") to everyone, regardless of whether they are good or evil. Now, please don't misunderstand me - I'm not saying atheists are evil. I'm simply pointing out that there are strands of teaching in the Judeo-Christian tradition that recognize that people of different faiths or of no faith at all can be blessed by God.
In my view (which is a minority among Christians) God loves the atheist and the Muslim and the Hindu as much as he loves the Christian and the Jew. It's all part of his plan, and he blesses people of no faith just as he blesses people of faith. The atheist serves a purpose in this plan.
For me, there is no eternal torment as some have interpreted early Christian writings. We all go through judgment, but ultimately there is hope for all, and the door to the kingdom will never be locked permanently from within.
I can't remember if the bible addresses this since it's been a while since I read it. However, while I have not read the whole koran I did read a bit a while back and remember it directly addressing this question. I can't remember the part of the book (somewhere towards the front) but it basically says that the unbeliever will be treated nicely by god in this life because god is merciful. (not saying that makes sense)
Quote from: xSilverPhinxI think what some like to think is that people choose to live good happy and godless lives on Earth but will suffer for their godlessness in the afterlife. Funny vindictive godly wishful thinking going on there...
That's what I've always assumed. Kind of live now, pay later. ;D
But of course, we can't tell what
extra blessings we might get if we did believe.
The PoE has been THE major stumbling block for Christianity.
Quote from: magdalena on November 05, 2011, 05:02:37 AM
What delusional answer could they possibly have to explain how a person is happy, prosperous and healthy without the grace or will of a god?
It may be they don't notice all that. I remember when I was a kid in Sunday school someone brought up seeing people at the beach on Sundays, instead of in church, and how miserable and unhappy they all looked. The rest of the class, esp. the teacher, nodded in grave agreement with this observation. I'd seen those people myself and they looked quite happy to me, like they were having a ball in fact.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 05, 2011, 06:26:52 PM
Quote from: magdalena on November 05, 2011, 05:02:37 AM
What delusional answer could they possibly have to explain how a person is happy, prosperous and healthy without the grace or will of a god?
It may be they don't notice all that. I remember when I was a kid in Sunday school someone brought up seeing people at the beach on Sundays, instead of in church, and how miserable and unhappy they all looked. The rest of the class, esp. the teacher, nodded in grave agreement with this observation. I'd seen those people myself and they looked quite happy to me, like they were having a ball in fact.
Haha, wow. Even in my most religious days, I don't think I ever thought that church was "fun".
Quote from: Gawen on November 05, 2011, 06:22:15 PM
The PoE has been THE major stumbling block for Christianity.
Problem of Evil? Not really a problem at all. All God has to do is make it all end well (if he is a just and loving and powerful God). Since the last chapter hasn't been written yet, it remains to be seen if he can do that, and if so, how it will be done.
The main reason evil has seemed like such a problem is that Christians often demand a definition of God as being
all-powerful,
all-knowing, etc. Even the Bible mentions certain limits to his power and knowledge, so the classic theodicy of "if God is all-powerful and all-beneficent, how can evil exist" is not as rigid a problem as often thought. If you back off of each of these "omni" statements just a little, it gives enough wiggle-room to escape the problem.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on November 05, 2011, 07:41:48 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 05, 2011, 06:26:52 PM
Quote from: magdalena on November 05, 2011, 05:02:37 AM
What delusional answer could they possibly have to explain how a person is happy, prosperous and healthy without the grace or will of a god?
It may be they don't notice all that. I remember when I was a kid in Sunday school someone brought up seeing people at the beach on Sundays, instead of in church, and how miserable and unhappy they all looked. The rest of the class, esp. the teacher, nodded in grave agreement with this observation. I'd seen those people myself and they looked quite happy to me, like they were having a ball in fact.
Haha, wow. Even in my most religious days, I don't think I ever thought that church was "fun".
I did, I liked going to church. I just didn't think those people at the beach weren't also enjoying themselves. Besides, I don't think the idea was that church was so much more fun than the beach, but that going to church glorified you whereas going to the beach did not. I'd have a considerable arguement with that, but people see things as they will.
A flipside of the coin:
Why are so many people who try to be good believers miserable?
Quote from: magdalena on November 05, 2011, 05:02:37 AM
I have a few questions, maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but here it goes....
How do religious people explain all the wonderful things that happen in an atheist life?
I think they call them blessings.
Would they agree that maybe their god loves us and rewards us? But, how is that possible? Aren't non-believers supposed to be suffering because god punishes people like us?
What delusional answer could they possibly have to explain how a person is happy, prosperous and healthy without the grace or will of a god?
We have a winner.
Quote from: Asmodean on November 07, 2011, 02:54:57 PM
A flipside of the coin:
Why are so many people who try to be good believers miserable?
You collect frequent miserable points in this life and get to claim soft furnishings/white goods/ electricals/virgins in the next life.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on November 07, 2011, 03:55:14 PM
You collect frequent miserable points in this life and get to claim soft furnishings/white goods/ electricals/virgins in the next life.
Screw that! I want a hollowed out volcano in which to build my evil lair. >:(
Ah... Right... Gods and Goodness... Eh... I meant, my
charity camp. Yes, yes. That's what I meant to say. Who wants an evil lair anyways?! Ridiculous! ;D
Quote from: Asmodean on November 07, 2011, 03:59:47 PM
Ah... Right... Gods and Goodness... Eh... I meant, my charity camp. Yes, yes. That's what I meant to say. Who wants an evil lair anyways?! Ridiculous! ;D
Ah man, didn't you absorb Orwell, just name things for their opposites, Volcano of Despair / Cone of Hope, it's not a lie, everyone there will be hoping they were elsewhere.
???
..!
Genius! :-D
Will be my "Prayer Mountain" because there will be a lot of torturing of theists going on in there and those, they pray in such situations, or so I hear...
Quote from: magdalena on November 05, 2011, 05:02:37 AM
I have a few questions, maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but here it goes....
How do religious people explain all the wonderful things that happen in an atheist life?
I think they call them blessings.
Would they agree that maybe their god loves us and rewards us? But, how is that possible? Aren't non-believers supposed to be suffering because god punishes people like us?
What delusional answer could they possibly have to explain how a person is happy, prosperous and healthy without the grace or will of a god?
I'd go on and ask a further question. Why are a large percentage of non-believers highly educated and intelligent and living in advanced wealthy countries, whereas the majority of believers are poorly educated and live in relative poverty in less advanced countries?
For moderators: my use of biblical verses below should not be considered prostyletizing or trolling as I'm using them to directly answer the OP
Quote from: magdalena on November 05, 2011, 05:02:37 AM
I have a few questions, maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but here it goes....
How do religious people explain all the wonderful things that happen in an atheist life?
I think they call them blessings.
Would they agree that maybe their god loves us and rewards us? But, how is that possible? Aren't non-believers supposed to be suffering because god punishes people like us?
What delusional answer could they possibly have to explain how a person is happy, prosperous and healthy without the grace or will of a god?
It's part of the hiddenness and mercy of God. A "mercenary" world of immediate reward for alignment with God and immediate justice for misalignment with God would be a type of world in which the best forms of righteous acts would not be possible (e.g., acting toward someone in love with no expectation of reward). And so, Matthew 5:45: "He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Justice delayed is an act of mercy, but this state of things will not last forever.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on November 08, 2011, 01:04:01 PM
I'd go on and ask a further question. Why are a large percentage of non-believers highly educated and intelligent and living in advanced wealthy countries, whereas the majority of believers are poorly educated and live in relative poverty in less advanced countries?
1 Cor 1:21-31
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand sins and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord."
Quote from: Too Few LionsI'd go on and ask a further question. Why are a large percentage of non-believers highly educated and intelligent and living in advanced wealthy countries, whereas the majority of believers are poorly educated and live in relative poverty in less advanced countries?
Right! That used to be very noticeable between the catholic and the protestant countries, too. Not so much nowadays, now the priests are losing their grip.
The present EU financial crisis is mostly among the PIIGS - Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, Spain. All the deeply catholic members plus the orthodox one.
Quote from: bandit4god on November 08, 2011, 01:41:37 PM
For moderators: my use of biblical verses below should not be considered prostyletizing or trolling as I'm using them to directly answer the OP
Quote from: Too Few Lions on November 08, 2011, 01:04:01 PM
I'd go on and ask a further question. Why are a large percentage of non-believers highly educated and intelligent and living in advanced wealthy countries, whereas the majority of believers are poorly educated and live in relative poverty in less advanced countries
Quote
1 Cor 1:21-31
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand sins and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord."
hmmm, all you're telling me is what I already knew, that the earliest believers in the Christian god were similar to those today...generally the less intelligent and poorly educated. All the above quote appears to be doing is glorifying ignorance over wisdom, which is something that epitomises the history of Christianity.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on November 08, 2011, 04:40:50 PM
Quote from: bandit4god on November 08, 2011, 01:41:37 PM
For moderators: my use of biblical verses below should not be considered prostyletizing or trolling as I'm using them to directly answer the OP
Quote from: Too Few Lions on November 08, 2011, 01:04:01 PM
I'd go on and ask a further question. Why are a large percentage of non-believers highly educated and intelligent and living in advanced wealthy countries, whereas the majority of believers are poorly educated and live in relative poverty in less advanced countries
Quote
1 Cor 1:21-31
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand sins and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord."
hmmm, all you're telling me is what I already knew, that the earliest believers in the Christian god were similar to those today...generally the less intelligent and poorly educated. All the above quote appears to be doing is glorifying ignorance over wisdom, which is something that epitomises the history of Christianity.
The weight of the second paragraph centers around the phrase "by human standards". A bright thread through all accounts of the Christian God is that He often fulfills His purpose by exalting those in low esteem by human standards "so that no one may boast before him". Contemporary Christians, by and large, do match your description of being among the lowly and unwise by human standards.
"Human standards? Quite right! That's the only standard there is!" Your wager may be right, but it's quite a daring wager indeed.
Quote from: bandit4god on November 10, 2011, 11:37:46 PM
Your wager may be right, but it's quite a daring wager indeed.
if I'm making a wager (and I don't think that I or any other atheist are), I consider it a substantially less daring wager than falling asleep each and every night. I actually consider your theological position to be a far more dangerous and daring position than mine. Given the amount of other deities Christianity's proscribed and generally pissed off over the centuries, you have far more to worry about than me if gods actually do exist!
A Christian recently told me that Christianity is about finding meaning in suffering and that suffering was a blessing and would make a person better in the afterlife.
Quote from: Stevil on November 15, 2011, 09:26:45 AM
A Christian recently told me that Christianity is about finding meaning in suffering and that suffering was a blessing and would make a person better in the afterlife.
Well, if you're going to be miserable there might as well be some pay off for it. What I don't understand, esp. in first world countries, is where are all these miserable people coming from and why are they miserable? The only thing I can think of is clinical depression, but Xtians represent a very high percentage of human beings in the West and it's just hard to believe that so many people can be clinically depressed.
Quote from: Stevil on November 15, 2011, 09:26:45 AM
A Christian recently told me that Christianity is about finding meaning in suffering and that suffering was a blessing and would make a person better in the afterlife.
Sounds very Mother Theresa
And yet, I'm willing to bet that most Christians avoid suffering in their day-to-day lives as much as we do. Unless they're flagellants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellant). But I think that went out of fashion, for the most part, some time ago.
Quote from: Stevil on November 15, 2011, 09:26:45 AM
A Christian recently told me that Christianity is about finding meaning in suffering and that suffering was a blessing and would make a person better in the afterlife.
I cringed when I read what some Christian told you.
I found this link (http://www.theocentric.com/spirituality/suffering/should_we_pray_for_suffering.html) on praying for suffering. It relays how I feel about the subject of praying FOR suffering. I dare say, it may relay what most Christianity thinks about this.
Quote from: Stevil on November 15, 2011, 09:26:45 AM
A Christian recently told me that Christianity is about finding meaning in suffering and that suffering was a blessing and would make a person better in the afterlife.
Cilices for everyone!!!
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 15, 2011, 11:35:11 AM
Well, if you're going to be miserable there might as well be some pay off for it. What I don't understand, esp. in first world countries, is where are all these miserable people coming from and why are they miserable? The only thing I can think of is clinical depression, but Xtians represent a very high percentage of human beings in the West and it's just hard to believe that so many people can be clinically depressed.
Being surrounded by Christians will make you depressed pretty quickly.
Quote from: bandit4god on November 10, 2011, 11:37:46 PM
"Human standards? Quite right! That's the only standard there is!" Your wager may be right, but it's quite a daring wager indeed.
::)
There are variations in wisdom in a species even if there are some types of knowledge that might be out of our reach...
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 16, 2011, 03:40:40 AM
There are variations in wisdom in a species even if there are some types of knowledge that might be out of our reach...
What do you mean by this? I take it to mean that just because the human brain cannot fathom particular matters doesn't mean that those matters do not reflect reality. In other words, the sum total of all reality is not measured by what the human brain can comprehend. Am I interpreting this correctly?
I mean to say that if there are unknowables out there, then it's pointless to speculate on what they are, especially if we don't even know that what unknowables are out there (that do reflect reality, but that's besides the point).
Unknowables for whatever reason, going from being beyond our human ability to comprehend to simply being out of reach for now, due to whatever limitations that can be eventually surpassed.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 16, 2011, 06:45:30 AM
I mean to say that if there are unknowables out there, then it's pointless to speculate on what they are, especially if we don't even know that what unknowables are out there (that do reflect reality, but that's besides the point).
Unknowables for whatever reason, going from being beyond our human ability to comprehend to simply being out of reach for now, due to whatever limitations that can be eventually surpassed.
The trouble with the 'unknowable' issue is that IMO humans can't cope with not knowing, we are infinitely curious and even when faced with the 'unknowable' we have to have an answer, hence superstition.
I don't think it is unexpected that people speculate about the unknowable it's part of our nature. The issue is that some people believe the speculations and then act on those beliefs despite all reasonable/rational arguments.
Whether there are 'unknowables' or not I think it's endemic in human nature that we will always try to know the unknowable, that is after all the basis of science aka Institutionalised Curiosity.
I actually find the belief in god to rationalize the questions we can't answer to be pretty arrogant. It's like they're saying 'I can't figure this out, and since I'm so smart the only explanation is that god did it.' People think they're 'humbling' themselves before god, but I couldn't disagree more.
These are the same people who claim that our complex bodies couldn't have evolved into what they are and that there's no life elsewhere in the universe. I find humility in admitting that our existence is nothing more than a cosmic 'accident' (except for the evolution part which seems to be inevitable given the right conditions). We exist because our planet is the right size, the right distance from our star which is also the right size, and covered with water. An asteroid could wipe us out tomorrow and it would be as though we never existed. We are absolutely not special in any way shape or form except that we happened to be born into the species at the top of the totem pole. You could just as easily have been born a dung beetle.
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 16, 2011, 02:19:33 PM
I actually find the belief in god to rationalize the questions we can't answer to be pretty arrogant. It's like they're saying 'I can't figure this out, and since I'm so smart the only explanation is that god did it.' People think they're 'humbling' themselves before god, but I couldn't disagree more.
These are the same people who claim that our complex bodies couldn't have evolved into what they are and that there's no life elsewhere in the universe. I find humility in admitting that our existence is nothing more than a cosmic 'accident' (except for the evolution part which seems to be inevitable given the right conditions). We exist because our planet is the right size, the right distance from our star which is also the right size, and covered with water. An asteroid could wipe us out tomorrow and it would be as though we never existed. We are absolutely not special in any way shape or form except that we happened to be born into the species at the top of the totem pole. You could just as easily have been born a dung beetle.
As someone who believes in God but also accepts evolution and the possibility of extraterrestrial life, I don't seen anything arrogant about faith. If you don't have it, fine. But if someone's personal experience leads them to believe, I don't see what is arrogant about that.
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 16, 2011, 02:19:33 PM
I actually find the belief in god to rationalize the questions we can't answer to be pretty arrogant. It's like they're saying 'I can't figure this out, and since I'm so smart the only explanation is that god did it.' People think they're 'humbling' themselves before god, but I couldn't disagree more.
These are the same people who claim that our complex bodies couldn't have evolved into what they are and that there's no life elsewhere in the universe. I find humility in admitting that our existence is nothing more than a cosmic 'accident' (except for the evolution part which seems to be inevitable given the right conditions). We exist because our planet is the right size, the right distance from our star which is also the right size, and covered with water. An asteroid could wipe us out tomorrow and it would be as though we never existed. We are absolutely not special in any way shape or form except that we happened to be born into the species at the top of the totem pole. You could just as easily have been born a dung beetle.
If it was not for the human ability
in the past to fill in the gaps in our knowledge with superstition I seriously think that there would be no humans now. I explain my ideas in this thread 'Why God (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8210.0)
Quote from: Tank on November 16, 2011, 03:32:20 PM
If it was not for the human ability in the past to fill in the gaps in our knowledge with superstition I seriously think that there would be no humans now. I explain my ideas in this thread 'Why God (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8210.0)
Yes a good link.
We've had the view expressed today that humans should see life as a bit of shit and give up. I don't think it's a thing many other animals consider, but for humans religion probably helped them choose to live in bleak times past.
Quote from: Tank on November 16, 2011, 07:09:46 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 16, 2011, 06:45:30 AM
I mean to say that if there are unknowables out there, then it's pointless to speculate on what they are, especially if we don't even know that what unknowables are out there (that do reflect reality, but that's besides the point).
Unknowables for whatever reason, going from being beyond our human ability to comprehend to simply being out of reach for now, due to whatever limitations that can be eventually surpassed.
The trouble with the 'unknowable' issue is that IMO humans can't cope with not knowing, we are infinitely curious and even when faced with the 'unknowable' we have to have an answer, hence superstition.
I don't think it is unexpected that people speculate about the unknowable it's part of our nature. The issue is that some people believe the speculations and then act on those beliefs despite all reasonable/rational arguments.
Whether there are 'unknowables' or not I think it's endemic in human nature that we will always try to know the unknowable, that is after all the basis of science aka Institutionalised Curiosity.
Let me rephrase what I mean by 'unknowable' in this context. Liken it to what's beyond the observable universe...that would be unknowable to us, unless there is a way to gain observable information that is not limited by the speed of light. I never meant it in a way that we shouldn't keep trying to figure out how the universe works :)
You could say that quantum mechanics are unknowable to dogs. We know that it exists, it's demonstrable, it's scientific but even though dogs live in the same objective realty as us, they will never have that concept or the means to know anything about quantum mechanics.
They don't even know that there is such a thing called quantum mechanics that is unknowable to them... We know that we can't observe what's beyond the observable universe, at least for now, but what about all our unknowable unknowables?
I meant it more in this context, and not like when the religious say things like "lean not on your own understanding
(but on the understanding of a self proclaimed authority...)"
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 16, 2011, 02:49:19 PM
But if someone's personal experience leads them to believe, I don't see what is arrogant about that.
So why you? Why is god allowed to show his presence to you and not everyone? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to show the non-believers that he exists than the believers?
And why is it that so many people who claim to experience god say it happened at a low point in their life or while they were on drugs? By believing in god based on personal experience, you're basically saying you deserved his presence more than everyone else.
Quote from: Tank on November 16, 2011, 03:32:20 PMIf it was not for the human ability in the past to fill in the gaps in our knowledge with superstition I seriously think that there would be no humans now. I explain my ideas in this thread 'Why God (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8210.0)
I couldn't help but notice you italicized 'in the past', and that may well have been true in the past. But it sure isn't true now, yet people still do it.
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 16, 2011, 08:39:35 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 16, 2011, 02:49:19 PM
But if someone's personal experience leads them to believe, I don't see what is arrogant about that.
So why you? Why is god allowed to show his presence to you and not everyone? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to show the non-believers that he exists than the believers?
And why is it that so many people who claim to experience god say it happened at a low point in their life or while they were on drugs? By believing in god based on personal experience, you're basically saying you deserved his presence more than everyone else.
I disagree. I'm certainly not the only person who has ever had a personal experience. Furthermore, it may be that everyone has the experience of God at some point, either now or even after death. The timing is not all that important. Neither are the attending circumstances (drugs, low point in life, etc.) all that significant. Many have had religious experiences in the absence of these circumstances. Time and circumstance may not be all that significant to God. He simply reveals himself as he pleases for his purposes. I am definitely not saying I deserved anything more than anyone else - I'm simply reporting my own personal experience. You may have a similar experience tomorrow.
I'm not saying you're actually saying that you're better than those who haven't 'experienced god' or even that you actually believe it. I just think that its an implication of believing that god speaks to you.
If I heard voices in my head, I wouldn't think it was god, I would check myself into a fuckin hospital. Know why? Because why me...
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 16, 2011, 09:18:48 PM
If I heard voices in my head, I wouldn't think it was god, I would check myself into a fuckin hospital. Know why? Because why me...
That might be a reasonable choice if you were hearing actual voices. But religious experiences don't have to involve that - for me it's more of a sense of a presence. Since you brought up Star Wars in another thread, it's a little like Darth Vader saying "I sense a presence" when Obi-Wan was near (bad analogy, I know). Religious faith is not considered a mental illness in the DSM, so if you came to the hospital and said that you had had a religious experience, they wouldn't admit you. They would consider you to be normal.
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 16, 2011, 08:41:26 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 16, 2011, 03:32:20 PMIf it was not for the human ability in the past to fill in the gaps in our knowledge with superstition I seriously think that there would be no humans now. I explain my ideas in this thread 'Why God (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8210.0)
I couldn't help but notice you italicized 'in the past', and that may well have been true in the past. But it sure isn't true now, yet people still do it.
We shouldn't rely on institutionalised superstition anymore. Humanity has to grow up and realise there is no plan, the only purpose in life is down to the person living the life, there is no Sky Daddy waiting to pick up the pieces and when you die that's it; game over. Only when all humans appreciate these facts will humanity stand a chance of realising its destiny, whatever that may be.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 16, 2011, 09:05:46 PM
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 16, 2011, 08:39:35 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 16, 2011, 02:49:19 PM
But if someone's personal experience leads them to believe, I don't see what is arrogant about that.
So why you? Why is god allowed to show his presence to you and not everyone? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to show the non-believers that he exists than the believers?
And why is it that so many people who claim to experience god say it happened at a low point in their life or while they were on drugs? By believing in god based on personal experience, you're basically saying you deserved his presence more than everyone else.
I disagree. I'm certainly not the only person who has ever had a personal experience. Furthermore, it may be that everyone has the experience of God at some point, either now or even after death. The timing is not all that important. Neither are the attending circumstances (drugs, low point in life, etc.) all that significant. Many have had religious experiences in the absence of these circumstances. Time and circumstance may not be all that significant to God. He simply reveals himself as he pleases for his purposes. I am definitely not saying I deserved anything more than anyone else - I'm simply reporting my own personal experience. You may have a similar experience tomorrow.
What an amazing piece of pointless gobbledygook. Given that you admit that your epiphany occurred on the day you took LSD your 'evidence' via experience is totally incredible. You are simply not a reliable or credible witness. All the above simple creates a safe place for you to believe exactly what you want to believe irrespective of reality.
Quote from: Tank on November 17, 2011, 07:32:45 AM
What an amazing piece of pointless gobbledygook. Given that you admit that your epiphany occurred on the day you took LSD your 'evidence' via experience is totally incredible. You are simply not a reliable or credible witness. All the above simple creates a safe place for you to believe exactly what you want to believe irrespective of reality.
I love psychedelics, and have had plenty of wonderful experiences on them. Many a time on mushrooms I've thought that I've sussed the meaning of life the universe and everything, and seen patterns in the whole cosmos, then I've come down off the trip and realised it was just the effect of the mushrooms on my brain...and shouldn't be taken any more seriously than that.
I find the talk of 'feeling a presence' interesting, it sounds like your temporal lobes were affected, and an awful lot like the results of the 'God helmet' experiments;
http://www.shaktitechnology.com/god_helmet.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YPOTaUyvA0
Quote from: Tank on November 17, 2011, 07:32:45 AM
What an amazing piece of pointless gobbledygook. Given that you admit that your epiphany occurred on the day you took LSD your 'evidence' via experience is totally incredible. You are simply not a reliable or credible witness. All the above simple creates a safe place for you to believe exactly what you want to believe irrespective of reality.
I've also informed you that that was only one experience. But selective deafness is a person's right - a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. Personal experience is a completely valid reason for a person to adopt a point of view. And I've seen nothing from any source that excludes the possibility of my God being a part of or even the foundation of reality.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 17, 2011, 07:21:53 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 17, 2011, 07:32:45 AM
What an amazing piece of pointless gobbledygook. Given that you admit that your epiphany occurred on the day you took LSD your 'evidence' via experience is totally incredible. You are simply not a reliable or credible witness. All the above simple creates a safe place for you to believe exactly what you want to believe irrespective of reality.
I've also informed you that that was only one experience. But selective deafness is a person's right - a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. Personal experience is a completely valid reason for a person to adopt a point of view. And I've seen nothing from any source that excludes the possibility of my God being a part of or even the foundation of reality.
My bad, I must have missed that, appologies. But LSD can lead to long term effects can it not?
Quote from: Tank on November 17, 2011, 07:36:22 PM
My bad, I must have missed that, appologies. But LSD can lead to long term effects can it not?
Yes, but that's not what I experience. I've never had a relapse or any effects from the few times I did LSD when I was in my late teens. But, if you choose not to believe me, what can I say?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 17, 2011, 07:52:29 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 17, 2011, 07:36:22 PM
I've also informed you that that was only one experience. But selective deafness is a person's right - a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. Personal experience is a completely valid reason for a person to adopt a point of view. And I've seen nothing from any source that excludes the possibility of my God being a part of or even the foundation of reality.
My bad, I must have missed that, appologies. But LSD can lead to long term effects can it not?
Yes, but that's not what I experience. I've never had a relapse or any effects from the few times I did LSD when I was in my late teens. But, if you choose not to believe me, what can I say?
[/quote]
Well you can tell me if the experiences differed in any ways, before putting words in my mouth. But then it's always easier to burn down a straw man that the truth isn't it ;)
Quote from: Tank on November 17, 2011, 07:54:13 PM
Well you can tell me if the experiences differed in any ways, before putting words in my mouth. But then it's always easier to burn down a straw man that the truth isn't it ;)
Well, you've already told me that your opinion is that I am not a credible witness, so I'm not sure that more testimony is going do. But, most of my personal experiences just deal with the sense of God's presence, overwhelming senses of peace or joy sometimes spontaneously occurring, experiences in which Jesus seems to be leading or providing (opportunities, open doors, various circumstances that occur at opportune times), and just an overall sense of blessedness and well-being, all giving rise to a daily sense of thanksgiving.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 17, 2011, 08:59:11 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 17, 2011, 07:54:13 PM
Well you can tell me if the experiences differed in any ways, before putting words in my mouth. But then it's always easier to burn down a straw man that the truth isn't it ;)
Well, you've already told me that your opinion is that I am not a credible witness, so I'm not sure that more testimony is going do. But, most of my personal experiences just deal with the sense of God's presence, overwhelming senses of peace or joy sometimes spontaneously occurring, experiences in which Jesus seems to be leading or providing (opportunities, open doors, various circumstances that occur at opportune times), and just an overall sense of blessedness and well-being, all giving rise to a daily sense of thanksgiving.
Well whether I believe what you experience is due to God or not is irrelevent, but I'm still interested in what make you believe in him.
Quote from: Tank on November 17, 2011, 09:02:42 PM
Well whether I believe what you experience is due to God or not is irrelevent, but I'm still interested in what make you believe in him.
The sum total of my personal experiences in life, plus the historical evidence, primarily from the writings of Paul, regarding Jesus, plus hearing the experiences of other Christians. So there's a subjective prong and an objective prong to my faith.
Now, an atheist on another forum once told me that "two prongs don't make a right," and I agree that my experiences plus whatever historical evidence is in the New Testament is not enough to make a conclusive case. But that is why my response is faith, not a claim of knowledge. Again, it's sort of my own working hypothesis for life. So far, it works for me. There is always the possibility that it will stop working someday. But that hasn't happened yet.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 17, 2011, 09:15:36 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 17, 2011, 09:02:42 PM
Well whether I believe what you experience is due to God or not is irrelevent, but I'm still interested in what make you believe in him.
The sum total of my personal experiences in life, plus the historical evidence, primarily from the writings of Paul, regarding Jesus, plus hearing the experiences of other Christians. So there's a subjective prong and an objective prong to my faith.
I've never had an experience that suggests god is there. I think you are supposed to want and prey to feel god is there. You have to say please please please let me believe, I'm scared, I don't want to die, I don't want mine to die, protect me, I want to praise something greater than me, I believe, I believe, I believe, I believe, I believe, I believe. I find this kind of thing very dangerous, the wrongness of the process struck me at an early age. You don't have to imagine what crazy things such a mantra may produce, it's all around. Anyway it's nice to live in a society where you don't have to plead with yourself for a delusion or pretend success if you fail to fool yourself.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on November 18, 2011, 02:03:58 AM
I've never had an experience that suggests god is there. I think you are supposed to want and prey to feel god is there. You have to say please please please let me believe, I'm scared, I don't want to die, I don't want mine to die, protect me, I want to praise something greater than me, I believe, I believe, I believe, I believe, I believe, I believe. I find this kind of thing very dangerous, the wrongness of the process struck me at an early age. You don't have to imagine what crazy things such a mantra may produce, it's all around. Anyway it's nice to live in a society where you don't have to plead with yourself for a delusion or pretend success if you fail to fool yourself.
You know, that's your experience in life, and while it differs from mine, I can't fault it. If you have no experience that suggest God is there, there's probably no reason to believe in him.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 17, 2011, 07:52:29 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 17, 2011, 07:36:22 PM
My bad, I must have missed that, appologies. But LSD can lead to long term effects can it not?
Yes, but that's not what I experience. I've never had a relapse or any effects from the few times I did LSD when I was in my late teens. But, if you choose not to believe me, what can I say?
"I am deluded"?
Quote from: magdalena on November 05, 2011, 05:02:37 AM
I have a few questions, maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but here it goes....
How do religious people explain all the wonderful things that happen in an atheist life?
I think they call them blessings.
Would they agree that maybe their god loves us and rewards us? But, how is that possible? Aren't non-believers supposed to be suffering because god punishes people like us?
What delusional answer could they possibly have to explain how a person is happy, prosperous and healthy without the grace or will of a god?
Actually it is the other way around. May I post Bible verses on this topic?
Quote from: mayitry2answer on December 03, 2011, 12:58:25 PM
Actually it is the other way around. May I post Bible verses on this topic?
...And so the preaching begins. 8)
mayitry2answer, please refer first to the Screeves of our Lady St Postula. The answer to this and much besides will be found in the Parable of the Loud Fart and the Smelly Fart (Wailings 14 xxi - xliv).
As a general answer to this topic I would suggest that the faith-heads are suffering - from delusions - whilst we are out in the cold winds of reality.
Quote from: mayitry2answer on December 03, 2011, 12:58:25 PM
Quote from: magdalena on November 05, 2011, 05:02:37 AM
I have a few questions, maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but here it goes....
How do religious people explain all the wonderful things that happen in an atheist life?
I think they call them blessings.
Would they agree that maybe their god loves us and rewards us? But, how is that possible? Aren't non-believers supposed to be suffering because god punishes people like us?
What delusional answer could they possibly have to explain how a person is happy, prosperous and healthy without the grace or will of a god?
Actually it is the other way around. May I post Bible verses on this topic?
You can post a bible verse(s), but please make sure they are relevent.
Quote from: mayitry2answer on December 03, 2011, 12:58:25 PM
Actually it is the other way around. May I post Bible verses on this topic?
feel free to post quotes from the Bible, the Odyssey, Alice in Wonderland, 1984 or any other work of fiction that takes your fancy. So long as they're relevant and don't constitute preaching you should be fine.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 03, 2011, 02:25:30 PM
Quote from: mayitry2answer on December 03, 2011, 12:58:25 PM
Actually it is the other way around. May I post Bible verses on this topic?
feel free to post quotes from the Bible, the Odyssey, Alice in Wonderland, 1984 or any other work of fiction that takes your fancy. So long as they're relevant and don't constitute preaching you should be fine.
Quite right.
The bible isn't our holy book so it's a meaningless support for you argument. It's like saying 'Look somebody else wrote this!', and I agree!. So what? Why not quote from the Koran? It's just as valid.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on November 17, 2011, 11:02:18 AM
I find the talk of 'feeling a presence' interesting, it sounds like your temporal lobes were affected.
That's exactly what I thought. LSD induced hallucination mainly takes place in the temporal lobes (specifically the right temporal lobe), combine the research done on neurotheology with the knowledge of how LSD works within the brain and the immense pleasure that can arise during 'a trip' Bruce's experience seems like nothing more than the chemical reactions of LSD. From what Bruce has written about his experience on here the experience sounds like a very common reaction to the drug, especially from those that are religiously inclined or consider themselves to be very spiritual as how LSD effects the individual is greatly determined by the mindset of that individual whilst coming up.
Quote from: Tank on December 03, 2011, 02:29:12 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 03, 2011, 02:25:30 PM
Quote from: mayitry2answer on December 03, 2011, 12:58:25 PM
Actually it is the other way around. May I post Bible verses on this topic?
feel free to post quotes from the Bible, the Odyssey, Alice in Wonderland, 1984 or any other work of fiction that takes your fancy. So long as they're relevant and don't constitute preaching you should be fine.
Quite right.
The bible isn't our holy book so it's a meaningless support for you argument. It's like saying 'Look somebody else wrote this!', and I agree!. So what? Why not quote from the Koran? It's just as valid.
In the fourth grade, I had a teacher who supported his views on life with quotes from Rudyard Kipling's
The Jungle Book. I'd take a Xtian supporting his view with quotes from the bible on par with anything Kipling wrote.
Quote from: TankI'd take a Xtian supporting his view with quotes from the bible on par with anything Kipling wrote.
I'm not sure about that. A lot of Kipling's stuff makes sense. ;D
Quote from: OldGit on December 03, 2011, 07:51:04 PM
Quote from: TankI'd take a Xtian supporting his view with quotes from the bible on par with anything Kipling wrote.
I'm not sure about that. A lot of Kipling's stuff makes sense. ;D
...And is actually quite not bad.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 03, 2011, 08:43:51 PM
Quote from: OldGit on December 03, 2011, 07:51:04 PM
Quote from: TankI'd take a Xtian supporting his view with quotes from the bible on par with anything Kipling wrote.
I'm not sure about that. A lot of Kipling's stuff makes sense. ;D
...And is actually quite not bad.
Well, Kipling's work does have the advantage of not having 1,000 odd years of people playing Telephone with it, and that's just for starters. But I'm trying to be fair here.
I know. I wasn't snarking, just taking the chance of a cheap shot at the bible. ;D