Have you ever ask your god about His religion?
Let's discuss this :)
God worships himself ;D
He worships a bigger god, who worships a bigger one again ....
Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em,
And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum.
And the great fleas themselves, in turn, have greater fleas to go on,
While these again have greater still, and greater still, and so on.
Quote from: OldGit on October 08, 2011, 04:01:35 PM
He worships a bigger god, who worships a bigger one again ....
Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em,
And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum.
And the great fleas themselves, in turn, have greater fleas to go on,
While these again have greater still, and greater still, and so on.
Oh dear. Infinite regress.
*brain goes into short circuit*
Wasn't Jesus Jewish?
Quote from: Stevil on October 08, 2011, 08:00:11 PM
Wasn't Jesus Jewish?
Common misconception, he was actually atheist. :)
Quote from: LukevanVeith on October 08, 2011, 10:27:21 AM
Have you ever ask your god about His religion?
Let's discuss this :)
Are you asking me, an atheist, if I have ever asked my god about his religion?
Quote from: Stevil on October 08, 2011, 08:00:11 PM
Wasn't Jesus Jewish?
Never bought that one, if so why did he have a Mexican's name? :D
He was a real daddy's boy, worshipped his father
Quote from: Too Few Lions on October 08, 2011, 11:28:23 PM
Quote from: Stevil on October 08, 2011, 08:00:11 PM
Wasn't Jesus Jewish?
Never bought that one, if so why did he have a Mexican's name? :D
He was a real daddy's boy, worshipped his father
Funny you mention it, but Jesus was next door doing my neighbours lawn today. His father wasn't there...
Still waiting on Luke to get back with us. After all, he wanted to discuss it. Ahhh, not my neighbours lawn...or the Jesus doing it....
Although he...ummm...Jesus, not Luke...does trim a nice bush...
Maybe his daddy taught him that...part of his religion, ya know...
I can't believe I just said that...
I really need to go to bed.
Quote from: Gawen on October 08, 2011, 08:26:41 PM
Quote from: LukevanVeith on October 08, 2011, 10:27:21 AM
Have you ever ask your god about His religion?
Let's discuss this :)
Are you asking me, an atheist, if I have ever asked my god about his religion?
Um, for theism, but feel free for atheism to join this discussion.
Quote from: Gawen on October 09, 2011, 01:51:15 AM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on October 08, 2011, 11:28:23 PM
Quote from: Stevil on October 08, 2011, 08:00:11 PM
Wasn't Jesus Jewish?
Never bought that one, if so why did he have a Mexican's name? :D
He was a real daddy's boy, worshipped his father
Funny you mention it, but Jesus was next door doing my neighbours lawn today. His father wasn't there...
Still waiting on Luke to get back with us. After all, he wanted to discuss it. Ahhh, not my neighbours lawn...or the Jesus doing it....
Although he...ummm...Jesus, not Luke...does trim a nice bush...
Maybe his daddy taught him that...part of his religion, ya know...
I can't believe I just said that...
I really need to go to bed.
I beg your pardon?
I really don't understand what are you saying.
Quote from: Gawen on October 08, 2011, 08:26:41 PM
Quote from: LukevanVeith on October 08, 2011, 10:27:21 AM
Have you ever ask your god about His religion?
Let's discuss this :)
Are you asking me, an atheist, if I have ever asked my god about his religion?
It would appear that his question is aimed at the theists on the forum.
It is an interesting question. What does God believe? What is God's religion? Being that he is the founder of Judaism, that the Jews are his chosen people, pretty much answers it.
So Luke, you started the thread. What are your views?
Quote from: Gawen on October 09, 2011, 12:30:07 PM
It is an interesting question. What does God believe? What is God's religion? Being that he is the founder of Judaism, that the Jews are his chosen people, pretty much answers it.
So Luke, you started the thread. What are your views?
You are making the assumption that the god in question is Yahweh. I'm being pedantic, but the original question stated 'your god' so could have referred to any thousands of deities. I like to think that maybe Yahweh believed in El or Baal as he stole a lot of his religion from them. Or maybe Asherah, he certainly used to worship her once upon a time!
Quote from: Too Few Lions on October 11, 2011, 12:23:19 AM
Quote from: Gawen on October 09, 2011, 12:30:07 PM
It is an interesting question. What does God believe? What is God's religion? Being that he is the founder of Judaism, that the Jews are his chosen people, pretty much answers it.
So Luke, you started the thread. What are your views?
You are making the assumption that the god in question is Yahweh. I'm being pedantic, but the original question stated 'your god' so could have referred to any thousands of deities. I like to think that maybe Yahweh believed in El or Baal as he stole a lot of his religion from them. Or maybe Asherah, he certainly used to worship her once upon a time!
Nah, if there is 'no god but god', then god is an atheist. ;D Or suitheist. Or something ???
Quote from: Gawen on October 09, 2011, 12:30:07 PM
It is an interesting question. What does God believe?
"Believe" is reserved for things that one does not "know." If there is knowledge, there is no need for belief or faith. So, if God is omniscient, he doesn't "believe" anything. On the other hand, if God knows a whole lot, but is not quite omniscient, then he probably believes something. What would he believe? Things that he does not know. What does he not know? Every single thing that we are going to do. Otherwise, the idea of freedom (which even Jesus promised - "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free") would not be possible.
So, my God, the Christian God, is not quite omniscient. He doesn't know everything that people will do. He's smart enough to be prepared for all the contingencies, but how it actually plays out, he doesn't know. Think of a chess master playing a beginner - the end result is assured (chess master wins), but exactly what plays the beginner will make are unknown. But God "believes" that he has it all under control in the end.
There are a couple of statements in the first chapters of Genesis that I have always found intriguing. First, in Genesis 2, he watches Adam to see what he will name the various animals - he doesn't know. Then, in Genesis 10 (I think - too lazy to look it up), in the Tower of Babel story, God says that if he doesn't come in and disrupt things, that nothing man decides to do will be impossible. So, God doesn't know exactly what we will do, but he believes that we can do anything.
God believed in Job - that Job would pass the test. God believed in Jesus - that he would accomplish the plan. So, this is a theist's answer to what God believes - his "religion" (his faith) is wrapped up in human beings. In a real sense, He believes in us.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 11, 2011, 03:58:20 AM
If there is knowledge, there is no need for belief or faith.
You heard it here first...
Quote from: Scissorlegs on October 11, 2011, 09:41:29 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 11, 2011, 03:58:20 AM
If there is knowledge, there is no need for belief or faith.
You heard it here first...
Doesn't that make us atheists the most knowledgable on the subject of gods? ;)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 11, 2011, 03:58:20 AM
Quote from: Gawen on October 09, 2011, 12:30:07 PM
It is an interesting question. What does God believe?
There are a couple of statements in the first chapters of Genesis that I have always found intriguing. First, in Genesis 2, he watches Adam to see what he will name the various animals - he doesn't know. Then, in Genesis 10 (I think - too lazy to look it up), in the Tower of Babel story, God says that if he doesn't come in and disrupt things, that nothing man decides to do will be impossible. So, God doesn't know exactly what we will do, but he believes that we can do anything.
God believed in Job - that Job would pass the test. God believed in Jesus - that he would accomplish the plan. So, this is a theist's answer to what God believes - his "religion" (his faith) is wrapped up in human beings. In a real sense, He believes in us.
Really? Then why this?
'Approach, you nations, to hear,
and listen, you peoples;
let the earth hear, and everything in it,
the world and all its offspring;
the lord rages against the nationsand his wrath against all their host:
he has prepared them for slaughter and destruction.their slain shall be cast out,
the stench of their corpses will rise,
and the mountains will flow with their blood'
Isaiah 34.1-3
By discussing Yahweh's thoughts and motives in the Garden of Eden, the Tower of Babel and Book of Job I think you've reduced your deity to mythology and a literary creation. We may as well be discussing Ishtar's motives in descending to the underworld or Zeus' interaction with humanity in the Iliad. And what was 'the plan'? 'Go down to Earth son, preach a bit of Greek philosophy and get yourself crucified'
IMHO not the best plan ever conceived!
If objective morality is god, and good is god, and all those other flowery attributes are god... then all that there is left for god, is nihilism. There is no higher purpose for the god.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on October 11, 2011, 11:00:20 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 11, 2011, 03:58:20 AM
Quote from: Gawen on October 09, 2011, 12:30:07 PM
It is an interesting question. What does God believe?
There are a couple of statements in the first chapters of Genesis that I have always found intriguing. First, in Genesis 2, he watches Adam to see what he will name the various animals - he doesn't know. Then, in Genesis 10 (I think - too lazy to look it up), in the Tower of Babel story, God says that if he doesn't come in and disrupt things, that nothing man decides to do will be impossible. So, God doesn't know exactly what we will do, but he believes that we can do anything.
God believed in Job - that Job would pass the test. God believed in Jesus - that he would accomplish the plan. So, this is a theist's answer to what God believes - his "religion" (his faith) is wrapped up in human beings. In a real sense, He believes in us.
Really? Then why this?
'Approach, you nations, to hear,
and listen, you peoples;
let the earth hear, and everything in it,
the world and all its offspring;
the lord rages against the nations
and his wrath against all their host:
he has prepared them for slaughter and destruction.
their slain shall be cast out,
the stench of their corpses will rise,
and the mountains will flow with their blood'
Isaiah 34.1-3
By discussing Yahweh's thoughts and motives in the Garden of Eden, the Tower of Babel and Book of Job I think you've reduced your deity to mythology and a literary creation. We may as well be discussing Ishtar's motives in descending to the underworld or Zeus' interaction with humanity in the Iliad. And what was 'the plan'? 'Go down to Earth son, preach a bit of Greek philosophy and get yourself crucified'
IMHO not the best plan ever conceived!
That was not one of Isaiah's best days. Since all the nations were not slaughtered, perhaps whoever wrote this was not uttering a true prophecy. When I interpret the Bible, I do so from the standpoint of one who believes that he has experienced God. My personal experience of God is primary. I look for things in the Bible that match up with my personal experience, that resonate with how I see God. Since the Bible is not the primary source of my faith, the fact that I interpret certain parts of it metaphorically does not reduce God to a literary creation. I'm discussing how people have conveyed their experience of God in the Bible - that's all. Whatever the Bible means, I'm still left with my own experience.
Tell us about your primary experiences with god.
Otherwise your posts explaining that your faith is built on your own experiences are completely meaningless.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub
"Believe" is reserved for things that one does not "know." If there is knowledge, there is no need for belief or faith. So, if God is omniscient, he doesn't "believe" anything.
Now you know why, in past threads here, the word "belief" is not in my vocabulary. Belief automatically assumes doubt. I either know or do not know.
QuoteOn the other hand, if God knows a whole lot, but is not quite omniscient, then he probably believes something. What would he believe? Things that he does not know. What does he not know? Every single thing that we are going to do. Otherwise, the idea of freedom (which even Jesus promised - "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free") would not be possible.
That is not what Paul tells us. Yet another contradiction within the bible.
QuoteGod believed in Jesus - that he would accomplish the plan.
By introducing Jesus along with this plan, God screwed over his chosen people and revoked an eternal covenant with them. It is no different than a spouse cheating on the other for no good reason other than to arbitrarily cheat. IOW, "I do it because I can - never mind the vows I make". This act, in my opinion renders God into an empty douche bag. Even douche bags have a purpose, but when one changes the contents or it's only filled with hot air, it just doesn't do the job, does it?
Quote from: Ecurb NoselrubThat was not one of Isaiah's best days.
You would know this...how?
QuoteSince all the nations were not slaughtered, perhaps whoever wrote this was not uttering a true prophecy.
Then why is it in the Bible?
QuoteWhen I interpret the Bible, I do so from the standpoint of one who believes that he has experienced God. My personal experience of God is primary. I look for things in the Bible that match up with my personal experience, that resonate with how I see God.
How typical...for any believer in any religion.
QuoteSince the Bible is not the primary source of my faith, the fact that I interpret certain parts of it metaphorically does not reduce God to a literary creation.
So where/when do the literary portions stop and the real ones begin?
QuoteI'm discussing how people have conveyed their experience of God in the Bible - that's all. Whatever the Bible means, I'm still left with my own experience.
And despite your reasoning skills, of which you show proficient use thereof, you still cannot see the delusion?
I want to know what his experience is, otherwise it is all babble.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 15, 2011, 01:44:49 PM
I want to know what his experience is, otherwise it is all babble.
It could be interesting. But I attach no proof to religious experiences or their testimonials as they are only evidences to the one experiencing it.
Quote from: Gawen on October 15, 2011, 01:40:14 PM
Quote from: Ecurb NoselrubThat was not one of Isaiah's best days.
You would know this...how?
Just my opinion. He seems like he's ranting, and anyway, God didn't destroy all the nations.
Quote from: Gawen on October 15, 2011, 01:40:14 PM
QuoteSince all the nations were not slaughtered, perhaps whoever wrote this was not uttering a true prophecy.
Then why is it in the Bible?
You'd have to ask the ancient rabbis and scribes who assembled the OT that one. I suspect over time the more beautiful parts of Isaiah had come to be very popular (there is some excellent poetry in it) and the book was generally accepted. They considered it inspired, and eventually rabbis and priests began using it as an authoritative source. It evolved into scripture.
Quote from: Gawen on October 15, 2011, 01:40:14 PM
QuoteSince the Bible is not the primary source of my faith, the fact that I interpret certain parts of it metaphorically does not reduce God to a literary creation.
So where/when do the literary portions stop and the real ones begin?
You would have to look at each book. For example, I think the first 11 chapters of Genesis are primarily either poetical/metaphorical or mythical/legendary, while beginning in chapter 12 you have a general historical story, which has been edited and expanded over the years, probably going through a significant period of oral transmission before being written down. Every book is going to be different.
Quote from: Gawen on October 15, 2011, 01:40:14 PM
QuoteI'm discussing how people have conveyed their experience of God in the Bible - that's all. Whatever the Bible means, I'm still left with my own experience.
And despite your reasoning skills, of which you show proficient use thereof, you still cannot see the delusion?
I could be deluded, and we are all probably deluded about something (whether some person actually loves us or whether a politician is actually going to do what he promises, for example). But to date my overall personal experience causes me to conclude that it is more likely not a delusion. But that's just my opinion.
[/quote]
What is your personal experience? Do tell.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 15, 2011, 07:49:42 PM
What is your personal experience? Do tell.
There have been many, but the first one was when I was 19. While I was reading a passage from Matthew in a particularly low moment in my life, I felt the sensation of something entering me from the outside (actually at my solar plexus region), which was accompanied by the most intense ecstasy I have ever experienced. All I can say is that I had an inward assurance at the time that this was Jesus - there was no question in my mind about that, and the euphoria had a distinctly personal aspect to it. While I heard no audible voice, my thoughts were captive to what seemed to be an inner voice identifying itself as that of Jesus. While I had a Christian background, nothing in my previous experience had prepared me for this.
Over the years, I've had many subjective experiences in this category (none this intense), all of which included a sense of divine presence. When I was younger in college, a couple of these occurred while I was taking LSD, but since then none of them were related to drugs. They usually involved euphoria, ecstasy, peace or extreme joy. Once when I was driving I thought my jaw was going to pop, my mouth was open so wide in ecstatic joy. Always, again, the sense of the presence of Jesus/Spirit of God is there. On some occasions, I experience the phenomenon of speaking in tongues, which I don't understand, but which seem to bubble up from my mid-section.
On a more practical level, there is often the sense that I'm being led. Things work out, doors open up, inspiration comes for some problem. The overall end result of my life is that things have worked out OK, and sometimes I'm overcome by a sense of thankfulness and gratitude. These are all subjective sensations, and to the outside observer there would not be any blinding light or empirically established observation. They are personal experiences to me, and I've come to realize that they have little if any impact on anyone else. So I'm not very evangelical about them anymore, and just discuss them like I am now.
Damn right your experiences are subjective, but sadly because of their subjectivity they offer no strengthening to the theistic viewpoint that you put on here. I'd simply guess you just suffered personal delusions due to your faith. There is nothing there that says to me "god" As for doors opening and stuff, you never heard of co-incidence and good fortune?
Anyhow, thanks for telling. At least I understand more about how you still have faith when you reject half of the crap in the bible apart from the "good bits". Yep, my understanding now is that your faith is based on personal delusions. Don't take offence at me saying that though, because all theists are the same, it's nothing personal.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 15, 2011, 03:10:16 AM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on October 11, 2011, 11:00:20 AM
[Really? Then why this?
'Approach, you nations, to hear,
and listen, you peoples;
let the earth hear, and everything in it,
the world and all its offspring;
the lord rages against the nations
and his wrath against all their host:
he has prepared them for slaughter and destruction.
their slain shall be cast out,
the stench of their corpses will rise,
and the mountains will flow with their blood'
Isaiah 34.1-3
That was not one of Isaiah's best days.
That's an understatement, but an amusing answer, I like it. I guess the question is why one of Yahweh's prophets would have said it, and why it's still held as scripture and the utterings of a divinely inspired prophet and not just the ramblings of a crazy misanthrope!
QuoteSince all the nations were not slaughtered, perhaps whoever wrote this was not uttering a true prophecy.
Again, I think 'perhaps' is maybe an understatement! But Isaiah isn't the only prophet of god to utter false prophecy in the Bible , god's very own son is guilty of false prophecy (Matthew 24.34-5)
QuoteWhen I interpret the Bible, I do so from the standpoint of one who believes that he has experienced God. My personal experience of God is primary.
Out of interest Bruce, how do you feel about ancient Egyptians who experienced those exact same feelings for Osiris, or ancient Greeks who experienced them about Zeus, or Romans who experienced them about Mithras, or Hindus who experience them about Shiva etc etc. Do you concede that those deities must exist too as people have experienced their presence? Do you think that maybe you might have experienced Allah and not Jesus if you'd lived in Afghanistan, or Vishnu if you'd lived in India?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 15, 2011, 08:11:05 PM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 15, 2011, 07:49:42 PM
What is your personal experience? Do tell.
There have been many, but the first one was when I was 19. While I was reading a passage from Matthew in a particularly low moment in my life, I felt the sensation of something entering me from the outside (actually at my solar plexus region), which was accompanied by the most intense ecstasy I have ever experienced. All I can say is that I had an inward assurance at the time that this was Jesus - there was no question in my mind about that, and the euphoria had a distinctly personal aspect to it. While I heard no audible voice, my thoughts were captive to what seemed to be an inner voice identifying itself as that of Jesus. While I had a Christian background, nothing in my previous experience had prepared me for this.
Over the years, I've had many subjective experiences in this category (none this intense), all of which included a sense of divine presence. When I was younger in college, a couple of these occurred while I was taking LSD, but since then none of them were related to drugs. They usually involved euphoria, ecstasy, peace or extreme joy. Once when I was driving I thought my jaw was going to pop, my mouth was open so wide in ecstatic joy. Always, again, the sense of the presence of Jesus/Spirit of God is there. On some occasions, I experience the phenomenon of speaking in tongues, which I don't understand, but which seem to bubble up from my mid-section.
On a more practical level, there is often the sense that I'm being led. Things work out, doors open up, inspiration comes for some problem. The overall end result of my life is that things have worked out OK, and sometimes I'm overcome by a sense of thankfulness and gratitude. These are all subjective sensations, and to the outside observer there would not be any blinding light or empirically established observation. They are personal experiences to me, and I've come to realize that they have little if any impact on anyone else. So I'm not very evangelical about them anymore, and just discuss them like I am now.
Thank you very much for that post. Most interesting. Would you clarify one thing for me please? Had you taken LSD before your experience at 19?
Quote from: Tank on October 15, 2011, 10:24:20 PM
Thank you very much for that post. Most interesting. Would you clarify one thing for me please? Had you taken LSD before your experience at 19?
Before, yes, but at the time of the experience I was not on a trip. I had taken it earlier that day, and the hallucinations had ended.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on October 15, 2011, 09:29:23 PM
Out of interest Bruce, how do you feel about ancient Egyptians who experienced those exact same feelings for Osiris, or ancient Greeks who experienced them about Zeus, or Romans who experienced them about Mithras, or Hindus who experience them about Shiva etc etc. Do you concede that those deities must exist too as people have experienced their presence? Do you think that maybe you might have experienced Allah and not Jesus if you'd lived in Afghanistan, or Vishnu if you'd lived in India?
I can't really judge their experiences, but I think that it is highly possible that all people who have similar experiences are, in fact, having some form of contact with God. Yes, if I lived in another culture, that would color my experience. But all I know is what I have experienced, and there is no question for me about the identity of the one I have communed with. What that means about the validity of other's experiences, I really don't know. Maybe we are all approaching the same summit from different routes - it just seems that my route is the best/clearest path. But again, that's just me.
Bruce, have you ever had any of these experiences in a non religious setting? Like when you were just going about your day and not reading the bible, in a Church, surrounded by religious people or thinking deeply about religious issues?
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 15, 2011, 08:43:30 PM
Damn right your experiences are subjective, but sadly because of their subjectivity they offer no strengthening to the theistic viewpoint that you put on here. I'd simply guess you just suffered personal delusions due to your faith. There is nothing there that says to me "god" As for doors opening and stuff, you never heard of co-incidence and good fortune?
Anyhow, thanks for telling. At least I understand more about how you still have faith when you reject half of the crap in the bible apart from the "good bits". Yep, my understanding now is that your faith is based on personal delusions. Don't take offence at me saying that though, because all theists are the same, it's nothing personal.
I don't take offense. I wouldn't really expect you to alter your view based on my subjective experiences. I disagree about delusions, but I suppose in the final analysis it doesn't matter if you agree with me or I with you.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 16, 2011, 12:32:17 AM
Bruce, have you ever had any of these experiences in a non religious setting? Like when you were just going about your day and not reading the bible, in a Church, surrounded by religious people or thinking deeply about religious issues?
Absolutely. I love to travel and hike and camp out (the deserts and mountains of West Texas are my favorite areas - at night you can see the Milky Way like it was the Strip in Las Vegas), and sometimes I'm so overcome by the beauty that one of these experiences arises. Or I may just be on my back porch looking at a sunrise or the night sky. Or it might just happen in a common, every day occurrence. More often than not, they surprise me. Going to a very boring church service is probably a guarantee that it won't happen, but if it's inspirational, that's another matter.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 15, 2011, 11:10:48 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 15, 2011, 10:24:20 PM
Thank you very much for that post. Most interesting. Would you clarify one thing for me please? Had you taken LSD before your experience at 19?
Before, yes, but at the time of the experience I was not on a trip. I had taken it earlier that day, and the hallucinations had ended.
Trips can come back hours or days after ending, and so now we know that you hallucinated your god experience.
As if we didn't know it anyway.
So now we know, you reject large parts of the bible and hallucinated god experiences on drugs, and that forms the basis of your faith.
I'd be questioning my faith, in your shoes.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 16, 2011, 12:49:58 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 15, 2011, 11:10:48 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 15, 2011, 10:24:20 PM
Thank you very much for that post. Most interesting. Would you clarify one thing for me please? Had you taken LSD before your experience at 19?
Before, yes, but at the time of the experience I was not on a trip. I had taken it earlier that day, and the hallucinations had ended.
Trips can come back hours or days after ending, and so now we know that you hallucinated your god experience.
As if we didn't know it anyway.
So now we know, you reject large parts of the bible and hallucinated god experiences on drugs, and that forms the basis of your faith.
I'd be questioning my faith, in your shoes.
I have questioned it for the past 40 years, as I continued to have experiences of God's presence without any drugs. You are looking for an easy explanation and think you have found it. That's certainly your prerogative.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2011, 12:58:21 AM
I have questioned it for the past 40 years, as I continued to have experiences of God's presence without any drugs.
LSD flashbacks.
QuoteYou are looking for an easy explanation and think you have found it. That's certainly your prerogative.
I have no explanation for why you or any other theist continues to believe. It is extremely frustrating because the things that you all build your faith on can easily be destroyed by logic and reason.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 16, 2011, 01:13:02 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2011, 12:58:21 AM
I have questioned it for the past 40 years, as I continued to have experiences of God's presence without any drugs.
LSD flashbacks.
You don't know what you are talking about. Admit it now, before you start to look desperate.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2011, 12:39:18 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 16, 2011, 12:32:17 AM
Bruce, have you ever had any of these experiences in a non religious setting? Like when you were just going about your day and not reading the bible, in a Church, surrounded by religious people or thinking deeply about religious issues?
Absolutely. I love to travel and hike and camp out (the deserts and mountains of West Texas are my favorite areas - at night you can see the Milky Way like it was the Strip in Las Vegas), and sometimes I'm so overcome by the beauty that one of these experiences arises. Or I may just be on my back porch looking at a sunrise or the night sky. Or it might just happen in a common, every day occurrence. More often than not, they surprise me. Going to a very boring church service is probably a guarantee that it won't happen, but if it's inspirational, that's another matter.
Ok, but why do you attribute them to some sort of divine experience? Does anything follow that convinces you that it is god talking to you or even more specifically, the Christian god?
Edited to add: Now I'm wondering, was your religious experience in anyway like your LSD trips?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2011, 01:19:00 AM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 16, 2011, 01:13:02 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2011, 12:58:21 AM
I have questioned it for the past 40 years, as I continued to have experiences of God's presence without any drugs.
LSD flashbacks.
You don't know what you are talking about. Admit it now, before you start to look desperate.
Hey, I'm not the one that thinks he's been contacted by something that doesn't exist. No desperation here my friend.
When you start talking about things that you cannot prove and have zero measurable evidence for, you can't really say other people don't know what they are talking about?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2011, 01:19:00 AM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 16, 2011, 01:13:02 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2011, 12:58:21 AM
I have questioned it for the past 40 years, as I continued to have experiences of God's presence without any drugs.
LSD flashbacks.
You don't know what you are talking about. Admit it now, before you start to look desperate.
One simple Google search does make a start LSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid_diethylamide)
Quote
Spiritual
LSD is considered an entheogen because it can catalyze intense spiritual experiences, during which users may feel they have come into contact with a greater spiritual or cosmic order. Users claim to experience lucid sensations where they have "out of body" experiences. Some users report insights into the way the mind works, and some experience permanent shifts in their life perspective. LSD also allows users to view their life from an introspected point of view. From this point of view, a user can travel back in time to a specific moment or memory and relive that moment again.[citation needed] Some users report using introspection to resolve unresolved or negative feelings towards an individual or incident that occurred in the past. Some users consider LSD a religious sacrament, or a powerful tool for access to the divine. Stanislav Grof has written that religious and mystical experiences observed during LSD sessions appear to be phenomenologically indistinguishable from similar descriptions in the sacred scriptures of the great religions of the world and the secret mystical texts of ancient civilizations.[36]
Now I could go on but I think that I have seen enough to reasonably conclude that your Faith is probably based on the use of one of the most notorious hallucinogenic drugs known.
Meh....it is not unheard of of people taking drugs and finding the spiritual, mystical, miraculous...even the gods. And it makes quite a bit of sense for a person who's down on his luck, reading religious material right after a trip.
I use the word "delusion" in this context: A belief strongly held in spite of invalidating, no good or lack of evidence. I have to say that Bruce's finding god was brought on by hallucinogenics and emotion. It would appear no other evidence is necessary...because we all know LSD is a valid and superb evidence of the existence of God. I wonder if God made Bruce take an illegal drug so Bruce could find God....
I think Bruce was quite brave 'fessing up his use of LSD and the timing of its use relative to his first 'revalation as he must of realised it would undermine his position. Can't fault his honesty on this point.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2011, 12:30:01 AM
I can't really judge their experiences, but I think that it is highly possible that all people who have similar experiences are, in fact, having some form of contact with God. Yes, if I lived in another culture, that would color my experience. But all I know is what I have experienced, and there is no question for me about the identity of the one I have communed with. What that means about the validity of other's experiences, I really don't know. Maybe we are all approaching the same summit from different routes - it just seems that my route is the best/clearest path. But again, that's just me.
My point was that these people had experiences of gods other than your god, not the same god. I don't think you're towing the party line again if you're claiming that they were experiencing the same deity as you (eg John 14.6, Deuteronomy 5.9). You're also countering pretty much all Christian teaching of the past 1900 years that has claimed that all other deities are 'false gods' and 'devils'. Indeed the one thing that set Christianity apart from all the other religions of the Roman Empire was its extreme intolerance towards all other gods and faiths. The Roman Empire only became Christian because all other gods and religions were outlawed under penalty of death. Why did the Christian authorities do that if all those other faiths also led to god?
Plenty of people throughout history have had 'religious experiences / visions' of many different gods and saviours. The deity you encounter in such a vision depends on your background and original belief, and you as an American Christian would obviously experience Jesus.
Quote from: Tank on October 16, 2011, 03:47:02 PM
I think Bruce was quite brave 'fessing up his use of LSD and the timing of its use relative to his first 'revalation as he must of realised it would undermine his position. Can't fault his honesty on this point.
Quite correct, although he now has zero credibility.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 16, 2011, 01:13:02 AM
I have no explanation for why you or any other theist continues to believe. It is extremely frustrating because the things that you all build your faith on can easily be destroyed by logic and reason.
That's because faith, by definition, has nothing to do with logic and reason. You're arguing oranges and apples, it's never going to work.
Quote from: Tank on October 16, 2011, 10:20:20 AM
Now I could go on but I think that I have seen enough to reasonably conclude that your Faith is probably based on the use of one of the most notorious hallucinogenic drugs known.
There is a tendency among you to find the easy answer, jump on it, and triumphantly claim victory. My faith is based on 40 years of experiences. But, you've made up your mind, so I'm not going to try to change it.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on October 16, 2011, 05:09:17 PM
My point was that these people had experiences of gods other than your god, not the same god. I don't think you're towing the party line again if you're claiming that they were experiencing the same deity as you (eg John 14.6, Deuteronomy 5.9). You're also countering pretty much all Christian teaching of the past 1900 years that has claimed that all other deities are 'false gods' and 'devils'. Indeed the one thing that set Christianity apart from all the other religions of the Roman Empire was its extreme intolerance towards all other gods and faiths. The Roman Empire only became Christian because all other gods and religions were outlawed under penalty of death. Why did the Christian authorities do that if all those other faiths also led to god?
Again, I'm only giving you my take on it. The Roman Christians were on their way to becoming the Roman Catholic Church, and were consolidating political power. I don't have that motivation, so perhaps I interpret things differently than you, anyway.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 16, 2011, 07:33:36 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 16, 2011, 03:47:02 PM
I think Bruce was quite brave 'fessing up his use of LSD and the timing of its use relative to his first 'revalation as he must of realised it would undermine his position. Can't fault his honesty on this point.
Quite correct, although he now has zero credibility.
As if I ever had any to begin with. Be honest - whatever my experience, you were going to reject it.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2011, 09:08:19 PM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 16, 2011, 07:33:36 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 16, 2011, 03:47:02 PM
I think Bruce was quite brave 'fessing up his use of LSD and the timing of its use relative to his first 'revalation as he must of realised it would undermine his position. Can't fault his honesty on this point.
Quite correct, although he now has zero credibility.
As if I ever had any to begin with. Be honest - whatever my experience, you were going to reject it.
Given the medium we're on, none of us has any real credibility since none of us can back up any personal claims we make unless we can manage to physically meet everyone else on this forum and even then we'd have to present verifiable evidence, so we're all sunk. At least if we're making claims that have a high woo-woo factor.
For what it's worth, you have credibility with me as far as my believing that what you believe you experienced was real to you, and if it made you a happier person and a better one to be around, then it was a good thing.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2011, 09:08:19 PM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 16, 2011, 07:33:36 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 16, 2011, 03:47:02 PM
I think Bruce was quite brave 'fessing up his use of LSD and the timing of its use relative to his first 'revalation as he must of realised it would undermine his position. Can't fault his honesty on this point.
Quite correct, although he now has zero credibility.
As if I ever had any to begin with. Be honest - whatever my experience, you were going to reject it.
Oh...I do not reject your experience of using hallucinogenics 40 years ago. That is quite believable and also within my experience. I however took various forms of LSD back when it WAS LSD (about half a dozen times or so) and never had a religious experience and only one bad trip.
At any rate, since you had a religious experience right after using hallucinogenics while reading the Bible and during a 'down' time, I'm sure you can understand our reservations that god somehow exists because of said experience. Moreover, I'm sure you will understand that because of the 'epiphany' you would, given the odds, find this God through subsequent experiences by simply looking for it.
I have a friend that, about a year ago, was down on his luck. He got plastered and lo and behold, he found Jesus. It's amazing that God just simply can't come to people...all people everywhere at the same time. Be it ill, disadvantaged, downtrodden...whatever, God seems to find these folk, many times healing their cancers or ingrown toenails or making their situation better.
All except for amputees. God hates amputees. He never grows a limb for an amputee.
Quote from: Gawen on October 17, 2011, 01:24:11 AM
All except for amputees. God hates amputees. He never grows a limb for an amputee.
Lizards.
Chop the tail off and it'll grow back. They are the chosen beings and obviously there must therefore be something in the Icke driven Reptillian fantasy land - Reptillians are GOD. Funnily enough they are just as invisible and hard to pin down.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2011, 09:08:19 PM
As if I ever had any to begin with. Be honest - whatever my experience, you were going to reject it.
And you are always going to reject the atheist argument to everything. Proof of that is in your faith, because if you started agreeing with us your faith would be destroyed.
While your experience undoubtably happened to you - well actually it mentally happened to you, in your head - there's just no reason to assume that god did it.
People think stuff all the time that isn't right, or that is wishful thinking, to downright delusion, is it god? Nope. My main point being how do we know you are different? How do you even know yourself?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2011, 09:04:18 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 16, 2011, 10:20:20 AM
Now I could go on but I think that I have seen enough to reasonably conclude that your Faith is probably based on the use of one of the most notorious hallucinogenic drugs known.
There is a tendency among you to find the easy answer, jump on it, and triumphantly claim victory. My faith is based on 40 years of experiences. But, you've made up your mind, so I'm not going to try to change it.
Oh, so Goddidit! isn't the 'the easy answer, jump on it, and triumphantly claim victory'? It is isn't it? It's the simplest cop-out answer humanity can find in the face of the unexplained. And without further evidence that your Faith isn't based on the effects of a hallucinogen I will maintain that view. Why? Because it is the simpler view.
Case A) drug trip influenced by social and personal factors.
Case B) existence of God and that God decided to come into your life just after a drug trip influenced by social and personal factors.
The factors in case A are all verifiable, the God factor in case B is not varifiable, thus case A (a perfectly adaquate evidence based explanation) trumps case B. End of story, until other evidence is presented.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2011, 09:07:07 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on October 16, 2011, 05:09:17 PM
My point was that these people had experiences of gods other than your god, not the same god. I don't think you're towing the party line again if you're claiming that they were experiencing the same deity as you (eg John 14.6, Deuteronomy 5.9). You're also countering pretty much all Christian teaching of the past 1900 years that has claimed that all other deities are 'false gods' and 'devils'.
Again, I'm only giving you my take on it. The Roman Christians were on their way to becoming the Roman Catholic Church, and were consolidating political power. I don't have that motivation, so perhaps I interpret things differently than you, anyway.
It's not just me that you interpret things differently to, you also have a completely different interpretation of things to your god and saviour and orthodox Christian teaching for the last 1900 years!!! (John 14.6, Deuteronomy 5.9).
It is mind boggling that some people seem to think they have that invisible mystical conduit between themselves and God. It is even more strange that some people have many experiences with God and/or the saints and other believers have few or none. Of course, the ones that get their experiences say they have the right faith or more of it and the others that don't are claimed by the ones that do don't have the right faith or enough of it.
Of course, in order to keep the experience legitimized, the Protestant Christian experience says the Muslim, Mormon, Catholic, etc. experiences are either false or they are all talking to the same god in different ways.
Good post Tank. I meant to grab that as well but got caught up in the "experience" part and forgot all about it. It was the first time I can remember that a theist claimed I was taking the easy way...*chucklin*...when they of course say "Goddidit".
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 17, 2011, 10:16:10 AM
Quote from: Gawen on October 17, 2011, 01:24:11 AM
All except for amputees. God hates amputees. He never grows a limb for an amputee.
Lizards.
Chop the tail off and it'll grow back. They are the chosen beings and obviously there must therefore be something in the Icke driven Reptillian fantasy land - Reptillians are GOD. Funnily enough they are just as invisible and hard to pin down.
And teeth. Seriously, would there be any need for dentists if we were more like sharks, who have multiple rows of teeth, or like rodents, whose teeth are always growing? God may dislike amputees, but he sure likes dentists...
Quote from: Tank on October 17, 2011, 10:48:04 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 16, 2011, 09:04:18 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 16, 2011, 10:20:20 AM
Now I could go on but I think that I have seen enough to reasonably conclude that your Faith is probably based on the use of one of the most notorious hallucinogenic drugs known.
There is a tendency among you to find the easy answer, jump on it, and triumphantly claim victory. My faith is based on 40 years of experiences. But, you've made up your mind, so I'm not going to try to change it.
Oh, so Goddidit! isn't the 'the easy answer, jump on it, and triumphantly claim victory'? It is isn't it? It's the simplest cop-out answer humanity can find in the face of the unexplained. And without further evidence that your Faith isn't based on the effects of a hallucinogen I will maintain that view. Why? Because it is the simpler view.
Case A) drug trip influenced by social and personal factors.
Case B) existence of God and that God decided to come into your life just after a drug trip influenced by social and personal factors.
The factors in case A are all verifiable, the God factor in case B is not varifiable, thus case A (a perfectly adaquate evidence based explanation) trumps case B. End of story, until other evidence is presented.
Expectation also plays a considerable part in suggestive states. I have a hard time taking people's religious experiences in churches, or while reading the bible, or maybe even when they're in a low point in their life seriously because of that.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 17, 2011, 10:25:39 AM
And you are always going to reject the atheist argument to everything. Proof of that is in your faith, because if you started agreeing with us your faith would be destroyed.
I venture to say that since becoming aware of the "new atheists" that I have agreed a lot more with what atheists have said than you have agreed with what Christians have said. When I first read "The End Of Faith" by Sam Harris, I realized that essentially everything he said was right, other than the fact that I had (at that time) about 35 years of experience that showed me that my individual faith was valid. But everything he said about organized religion was true.
If you can show me that my God does not objectively exist, I'll stop believing in him. So far, after 7 years on various atheist fora, no one has done that. But I'm open.
On the other hand, if I brought you a video of the resurrection, you would reject it. Admit it.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 17, 2011, 10:25:39 AM
While your experience undoubtably happened to you - well actually it mentally happened to you, in your head - there's just no reason to assume that god did it.
People think stuff all the time that isn't right, or that is wishful thinking, to downright delusion, is it god? Nope. My main point being how do we know you are different? How do you even know yourself?
I don't know. I believe. Two different things. Faith is like my working hypothesis, and so far, so good. I've got 40 years of experiences that lead me to believe. I don't claim knowledge, only faith. If the hypothesis is disproved, the faith will be destroyed - almost automatically, I assume. But so far, nobody has disproved it.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 17, 2011, 08:36:51 PM
Expectation also plays a considerable part in suggestive states. I have a hard time taking people's religious experiences in churches, or while reading the bible, or maybe even when they're in a low point in their life seriously because of that.
Expectation does, in fact, pay a considerable part in suggestive states. What about states in which there is no expectation? What about states in which someone is not engaged in religious activity?