So some background info. I recently started college, and decided it was most cost effective to move back in with my family. My brother is nine and looks up to me very much so I do my very best to set a good example for him. Tell him not to lie, respect mom and dad even when he thinks their rules are stupid, don't make fun of people, you know the basics. Well as my hello post stated both of my parents are very devout christians, where I am very not. Here in is where the problem begins, my parents go to church and he goes also, because well he's nine and mom and dad tell him he needs to go. So to say the least I don't like that my parents are making him go to church. But out of respect for my parents, and the simple fact that he is not my child I stay my oppinion. Recently I was watching an episode on nova about the start of the universe. My brother asked me what the big bang theory was, and I explained it to him. He had that serious look of thought, like he's constapated trying to process what I just told him. Then he looks at me and goes " So god didn't make the universe it exploded?" And all I could do was tell him " Thats what science says yes." he then asks " And what about us? I know about that evolution thing that we all started from a little bug or something, but mom says she didn't come from no monkey. Did god make us or did we come from monkies?" I explained the the theory of evolution to whom the best I could explain it to a nine year old. He said " Well that makes more sense then god made us from dirt." I don't want to overstep my bounds, but I wll not facilitate the retardation of his actuall education. All I can hope is that he, like me, will figure out the truth as he gets older. Any opinnions on this?
Your mum is right that we didn't come from a monkey as we know today, we came from a common ancestor of primates that is now extinct.
Just by discussing alternatives to what he may currently believe to be true will help open his mind not just to science but accepting of other cultures and ways of life. I would say its to be encouraged but also with an emphasis of making his own opinions and always be questioning.
You're in a difficult position. If you don't tell him what you think now how will he trust you in future? You can't lie to him. Maybe books might be a less emotive way of conveying your point of view. He can read them at his own leisure and you can build him a library over the years. What do you parents think of you and your brother discussing these subjects?
To offer a completely unbiased view of the evolution subject you can explain that evolution or even the big bang being true doesn't mean a god couldn't exist (I grew up accepting both with the bible and never had a problem because we weren't fundamentalists) and that science takes no stance on the existence of god (explained in whatever words he is able to currently understand). This is also least likely to get your parents upset with you.
Quote from: Tank on May 14, 2011, 11:47:54 PM
You're in a difficult position. If you don't tell him what you think now how will he trust you in future? You can't lie to him. Maybe books might be a less emotive way of conveying your point of view. He can read them at his own leisure and you can build him a library over the years. What do you parents think of you and your brother discussing these subjects?
I don't know if they realize he is asking these questions. When he needs money, or wants permission to do something, he goes to mom and dad. If he as a question on school, or things of the intelectual sorts he always comes to me, because in his words " Mom and Dad must not remember what they learned in school cause they don't know how to help answer my questions." I do know that my father has his circle of comfort. He doesn't let my brother watch degrassi because they had episodes about homosexuality and he didn't want him exposed to that and asked that I when asked if I think the show is ok to tell my brother that it's not up to me, you have to listen to dad, which again out of respect I do. So I am sure he wouldn't be overly happy that I am planting seeds of doubt in my brothers mind.
Quote from: thedport on May 15, 2011, 12:01:42 AM
Quote from: Tank on May 14, 2011, 11:47:54 PM
You're in a difficult position. If you don't tell him what you think now how will he trust you in future? You can't lie to him. Maybe books might be a less emotive way of conveying your point of view. He can read them at his own leisure and you can build him a library over the years. What do you parents think of you and your brother discussing these subjects?
I don't know if they realize he is asking these questions. When he needs money, or wants permission to do something, he goes to mom and dad. If he as a question on school, or things of the intelectual sorts he always comes to me, because in his words " Mom and Dad must not remember what they learned in school cause they don't know how to help answer my questions." I do know that my father has his circle of comfort. He doesn't let my brother watch degrassi because they had episodes about homosexuality and he didn't want him exposed to that and asked that I when asked if I think the show is ok to tell my brother that it's not up to me, you have to listen to dad, which again out of respect I do. So I am sure he wouldn't be overly happy that I am planting seeds of doubt in my brothers mind.
You're going to have to discuss this with your parents. And I think that Whitney has the core of what you have to discuss with your parents correct as well. If you don't get this out in the open now it could well get out of hand later. Have you ever discussed issues of a serious nature with your parents before?
Quote from: Tank on May 15, 2011, 12:14:42 AM
Quote from: thedport on May 15, 2011, 12:01:42 AM
Quote from: Tank on May 14, 2011, 11:47:54 PM
You're in a difficult position. If you don't tell him what you think now how will he trust you in future? You can't lie to him. Maybe books might be a less emotive way of conveying your point of view. He can read them at his own leisure and you can build him a library over the years. What do you parents think of you and your brother discussing these subjects?
I don't know if they realize he is asking these questions. When he needs money, or wants permission to do something, he goes to mom and dad. If he as a question on school, or things of the intelectual sorts he always comes to me, because in his words " Mom and Dad must not remember what they learned in school cause they don't know how to help answer my questions." I do know that my father has his circle of comfort. He doesn't let my brother watch degrassi because they had episodes about homosexuality and he didn't want him exposed to that and asked that I when asked if I think the show is ok to tell my brother that it's not up to me, you have to listen to dad, which again out of respect I do. So I am sure he wouldn't be overly happy that I am planting seeds of doubt in my brothers mind.
You're going to have to discuss this with your parents. And I think that Whitney has the core of what you have to discuss with your parents correct as well. If you don't get this out in the open now it could well get out of hand later. Have you ever discussed issues of a serious nature with your parents before?
Yes and it almsot always ends up, we just agree to disagree. Their veiws are very much bible driven, where I have a much more huminist aproach to it. When I bring up scientific studies to help support my veiws it's always met with well it says in the bible, blah, blah, blah. My family doesn't push their beleifs on me which is good, mainly because I have used logical arguements to often to back myself that I have been told that I am to closed midned and will never see things the way the rest of my family does, uncles, aunts, grandparents included. I have finally come out and told them that I am a huminist, and it didn't suprise them, just saddens them that I no longer have faith. Or my favorite, "this is just a phase and you'll grow past it once you see how the world really is"
I guesse, right now all I can do is default to listen to mom and dad, but first look for the answers yourself. That seems like the safest bet in staying nuetral.
Quote from: thedport on May 14, 2011, 11:27:52 PM
So some background info. I recently started college, and decided it was most cost effective to move back in with my family. My brother is nine and looks up to me very much so I do my very best to set a good example for him. Tell him not to lie, respect mom and dad even when he thinks their rules are stupid, don't make fun of people, you know the basics. Well as my hello post stated both of my parents are very devout christians, where I am very not. Here in is where the problem begins, my parents go to church and he goes also, because well he's nine and mom and dad tell him he needs to go. So to say the least I don't like that my parents are making him go to church. But out of respect for my parents, and the simple fact that he is not my child I stay my oppinion. Recently I was watching an episode on nova about the start of the universe. My brother asked me what the big bang theory was, and I explained it to him. He had that serious look of thought, like he's constapated trying to process what I just told him. Then he looks at me and goes " So god didn't make the universe it exploded?" And all I could do was tell him " Thats what science says yes." he then asks " And what about us? I know about that evolution thing that we all started from a little bug or something, but mom says she didn't come from no monkey. Did god make us or did we come from monkies?" I explained the the theory of evolution to whom the best I could explain it to a nine year old. He said " Well that makes more sense then god made us from dirt." I don't want to overstep my bounds, but I wll not facilitate the retardation of his actuall education. All I can hope is that he, like me, will figure out the truth as he gets older. Any opinnions on this?
I have something similar witha 10 year old brother. A few months ago, when I was really figuring out by faith (or lack there of), I just kinda blurted out the theory of evolution, simply because I needed to talk about it, and he was the only one around.
I myself, am almost a little prooud of him, because I now see him being more skeptical (or as skeptical as 10 years olds get), and he's startig to see things other than the brainwashing he's currently enduring at Catholic school. So, I'd be happy to see him question these things.
Also, NOVA is kick ass. ;D
Quote from: Cooper20 on May 15, 2011, 12:33:43 AM
Quote from: thedport on May 14, 2011, 11:27:52 PM
So some background info. I recently started college, and decided it was most cost effective to move back in with my family. My brother is nine and looks up to me very much so I do my very best to set a good example for him. Tell him not to lie, respect mom and dad even when he thinks their rules are stupid, don't make fun of people, you know the basics. Well as my hello post stated both of my parents are very devout christians, where I am very not. Here in is where the problem begins, my parents go to church and he goes also, because well he's nine and mom and dad tell him he needs to go. So to say the least I don't like that my parents are making him go to church. But out of respect for my parents, and the simple fact that he is not my child I stay my oppinion. Recently I was watching an episode on nova about the start of the universe. My brother asked me what the big bang theory was, and I explained it to him. He had that serious look of thought, like he's constapated trying to process what I just told him. Then he looks at me and goes " So god didn't make the universe it exploded?" And all I could do was tell him " Thats what science says yes." he then asks " And what about us? I know about that evolution thing that we all started from a little bug or something, but mom says she didn't come from no monkey. Did god make us or did we come from monkies?" I explained the the theory of evolution to whom the best I could explain it to a nine year old. He said " Well that makes more sense then god made us from dirt." I don't want to overstep my bounds, but I wll not facilitate the retardation of his actuall education. All I can hope is that he, like me, will figure out the truth as he gets older. Any opinnions on this?
It's good to know, that this isn't a unusuall situation and that there are others that have the same things going on. And agreed, NOVA is sweet. I also enjoy Free Speech Tv if you are able get this channle I would highly suggest looking into it.
I have something similar witha 10 year old brother. A few months ago, when I was really figuring out by faith (or lack there of), I just kinda blurted out the theory of evolution, simply because I needed to talk about it, and he was the only one around.
I myself, am almost a little prooud of him, because I now see him being more skeptical (or as skeptical as 10 years olds get), and he's startig to see things other than the brainwashing he's currently enduring at Catholic school. So, I'd be happy to see him question these things.
Also, NOVA is kick ass. ;D
@thedport
How old are you?
Quote from: Tank on May 15, 2011, 10:39:23 AM
@thedport
How old are you?
According to his profile, 22.
Quote from: Tank on May 15, 2011, 10:39:23 AM
@thedport
How old are you?
Why, do I seem to be the intelectual equivalent to a 12 year old? Or was the question simply out of pure curiosity? LOL ;D
Quote from: thedport on May 15, 2011, 06:20:25 PM
Quote from: Tank on May 15, 2011, 10:39:23 AM
@thedport
How old are you?
Why, do I seem to be the intelectual equivalent to a 12 year old? Or was the question simply out of pure curiosity? LOL ;D
I was curious about the family dynamic with your Father. At 22 you are now officially adult, even by US standards, you have every right to express you opinion as an adult in this situation. Your Father needs to realise this, but possibly never will. Your brother could become a punch bag between you two and that would be bad for all concerned.
The way you have dealt with this so far, from the limited information that can be conveyed on a forum, appears sensitive, pragmatic and balanced. What worries me is if your Father thinks you are going behind his back there could be problems. This is why I think you need to discuss this with your Father in an open and adult fashion if at all possible.
This is a difficult situation and rather out of my experience as theism has never been a significant issue in my families dynamics.
I think the way you have acted thus far is perfectly acceptable. You haven't pushed it upon your younger brother - he asked - and you should not lie to him when he's asking questions about scientific theories, the same way you should not lie to a child when they ask about sex or how the hamster died. All you can do is continue providing it from an unbiased point of view - by not explicitly discrediting your parents view of things but by just providing factual answers to his questions. I know it is up to your parents how they decide to bring up your brother but at the end of the day they cannot control every source in his life to prevent him from unbelieving - something that will become harder as he gets older.
Obviously I am unaware of the relationship you have with your parents but with mine I know I would be too strong minded to allow them from preventing me answering the questions of my younger brother, but I am also safe in the security that my parents would never disown me for.. well anything.
I agree that you should speak to your parents, but if I were you it would be to tell them that you will not lie to him and only answer questions he asks to the best of your ability - rather than to 'discuss' what you should or shouldn't say to him when he asks such questions.
My opinion is that you make sure that you have a grasp of the science before trying to explain it to your brother or anyone else. Make certain that you can find references for facts, theories, hypotheses, and make certain they're good, solid references.
The are few things more painful to my thinking than someone who spouts off nonsense or bad science during these types of conversations. Understand that your brother won't grasp all of this stuff, or even much of it. You need to be in a position of solid core competencies in these subjects and then also have the ability to teach it to others. Be careful how you proceed, because if you teach him incorrectly, you could just screw him up down the road.
That said, the first thing that popped into my mind when you began your explanation in your post is that you need to totally distinguish between theories of Big Bang and Evolution. They are not related. First mistake most people make when trying to argue with Creationists (or IDers) is to fall into the trap of arguing both things together. The Creationists always bring them up together because they can't separate them properly (basically because they know jack shit about either one).
So good luck, and again, make sure you're on solid ground with this stuff before you try and teach it. But kudos for even trying to approach this sticky subject!
Quote from: McQ on May 16, 2011, 04:15:39 AM
My opinion is that you make sure that you have a grasp of the science before trying to explain it to your brother or anyone else. Make certain that you can find references for facts, theories, hypotheses, and make certain they're good, solid references.
The are few things more painful to my thinking than someone who spouts off nonsense or bad science during these types of conversations. Understand that your brother won't grasp all of this stuff, or even much of it. You need to be in a position of solid core competencies in these subjects and then also have the ability to teach it to others. Be careful how you proceed, because if you teach him incorrectly, you could just screw him up down the road.
That said, the first thing that popped into my mind when you began your explanation in your post is that you need to totally distinguish between theories of Big Bang and Evolution. They are not related. First mistake most people make when trying to argue with Creationists (or IDers) is to fall into the trap of arguing both things together. The Creationists always bring them up together because they can't separate them properly (basically because they no jack shit about either one).
So good luck, and again, make sure you're on solid ground with this stuff before you try and teach it. But kudos for even trying to approach this sticky subject!
Um...ditto? McQ's got the right tack on this.
I'm moved by the care and seriousness with which you take your responsibility as a brother. Reminds me of my relationship with my brother.
Quote from: McQ on May 16, 2011, 04:15:39 AM
My opinion is that you make sure that you have a grasp of the science before trying to explain it to your brother or anyone else. Make certain that you can find references for facts, theories, hypotheses, and make certain they're good, solid references.
The are few things more painful to my thinking than someone who spouts off nonsense or bad science during these types of conversations. Understand that your brother won't grasp all of this stuff, or even much of it. You need to be in a position of solid core competencies in these subjects and then also have the ability to teach it to others. Be careful how you proceed, because if you teach him incorrectly, you could just screw him up down the road.
That said, the first thing that popped into my mind when you began your explanation in your post is that you need to totally distinguish between theories of Big Bang and Evolution. They are not related. First mistake most people make when trying to argue with Creationists (or IDers) is to fall into the trap of arguing both things together. The Creationists always bring them up together because they can't separate them properly (basically because they no jack shit about either one).
So good luck, and again, make sure you're on solid ground with this stuff before you try and teach it. But kudos for even trying to approach this sticky subject!
Ya I realize they are seperate, It was two different times my brother asked me these questions. I guesse the story does look like one time one question sorry. I was trying to squish a long story into a shorter post. I do appreciatte all of the support and advice. I think I am going to take a swiss aproach to this for a while at least and be a nuetral party. I am concerned right now with his education over his spiratual beleifs, I was raised the same way he is being raised and figured out the truth. Hopefully he will figure it out a little sooner seeing as how he has me.
I think its great that you respect your parents as much as you do, and I think it is also very great that you are setting that example for him. You seem to be a very good role model for your brother.
But I also dont feel that it is good to try and influence him too much on athiesm. Let him find his own way, you know? It's alright to tell him what you beleive about certain things, but dont go and bash religion completely (not that you have yet or anything :) ).
Being a younger brother myself, I find it very hard to not try and act like my older brother. You seem like a very good role model for him, but there is a difference in acting one way because of your role model and beleiving something just because that someone else beleives it.(I know, the pot calling the kettle black right? hahaha) Anyways, let him find truth, whether it be whats on the science channel or what's in The Bible. As long as he's happy right?
Just my two cents' ;) hope I didnt offend. :)
Quote from: PapistItalian16 on May 18, 2011, 01:35:20 AM
I think its great that you respect your parents as much as you do, and I think it is also very great that you are setting that example for him. You seem to be a very good role model for your brother.
But I also dont feel that it is good to try and influence him too much on athiesm. Let him find his own way, you know? It's alright to tell him what you beleive about certain things, but dont go and bash religion completely (not that you have yet or anything :) ).
Being a younger brother myself, I find it very hard to not try and act like my older brother. You seem like a very good role model for him, but there is a difference in acting one way because of your role model and beleiving something just because that someone else beleives it.(I know, the pot calling the kettle black right? hahaha) Anyways, let him find truth, whether it be whats on the science channel or what's in The Bible. As long as he's happy right?
Just my two cents' ;) hope I didnt offend. :)
No offense taken what so ever. I am probably one of the hardest people to offend you may meet, I am just to easy going. And I don't know where I get it from both of my parents have really short tempers. Maybe I decided I didn't want that to be me and went against the grain on that front. LOL, and I especially don't get upset with theist's, mainly because I was one for a very long time and understand the issue of faith. Thank you for you imput also. :D
Quote from: PapistItalian16 on May 18, 2011, 01:35:20 AM
I think its great that you respect your parents as much as you do, and I think it is also very great that you are setting that example for him. You seem to be a very good role model for your brother.
But I also dont feel that it is good to try and influence him too much on athiesm theism. Let him find his own way, you know? It's alright to tell him what you beleive about certain things, but dont go and bash religion completely (not that you have yet or anything :) ).
Being a younger brother myself, I find it very hard to not try and act like my older brother. You seem like a very good role model for him, but there is a difference in acting one way because of your role model and beleiving something just because that someone else beleives it.(I know, the pot calling the kettle black right? hahaha) Anyways, let him find truth, whether it be whats on the science channel or what's in The Bible. As long as he's happy right?
Just my two cents' ;) hope I didnt offend. :)
Would you give the same advice (that I underlined and inverted) to the Father and Mother? If not then why not? Because the parents are very much influencing the child in respect to his world view. They are in effect using their position of authority to indoctrinate their child. Is that reasonable and fair? If so why?
Quote from: PapistItalian16 on May 18, 2011, 01:35:20 AM
But I also dont feel that it is good to try and influence him too much on athiesm.
Try not to confuse an understanding on the Big Bang theory and an understanding on the Theory of Evolution with Atheism.
There is no scripture or guide book to Atheism which says thou shalt believe in evolution or Big bang.
Atheism isn't really much of an 'ism and isn't a belief, it's simply a lack of belief in god/s.
Scientists and Cosmologists have developed a detailed and deep theory with regards to Big Bang, they do this by making observations, devising theories and models based on those observations and testing them. It doesn't have anything to do with god beliefs or lack of beliefs in god. It is simply a way of understanding and modelling the Universe within which we can observe.
If any of the god theories are actually the truth then the scientific method will remain consistant with that. It is only beliefs that are not the truth that should worry about scientific discoveries and if they are not the truth then it is better we find out sooner than later. The thing is that religion tends to deal in immaterial things like the soul, morals, God (being an immaterial, eternal being) it is rare that these things cross over into the world of material nature (temporal, spacial, substance). When claims of cross over do occur then they better be prepared for scientific methods of discovery, either that or be well guarded by the proponents of theology.
Quote from: Tank on May 19, 2011, 08:46:42 AM
Quote from: PapistItalian16 on May 18, 2011, 01:35:20 AM
I think its great that you respect your parents as much as you do, and I think it is also very great that you are setting that example for him. You seem to be a very good role model for your brother.
But I also dont feel that it is good to try and influence him too much on athiesm theism. Let him find his own way, you know? It's alright to tell him what you beleive about certain things, but dont go and bash religion completely (not that you have yet or anything :) ).
Being a younger brother myself, I find it very hard to not try and act like my older brother. You seem like a very good role model for him, but there is a difference in acting one way because of your role model and beleiving something just because that someone else beleives it.(I know, the pot calling the kettle black right? hahaha) Anyways, let him find truth, whether it be whats on the science channel or what's in The Bible. As long as he's happy right?
Just my two cents' ;) hope I didnt offend. :)
Would you give the same advice (that I underlined and inverted) to the Father and Mother? If not then why not? Because the parents are very much influencing the child in respect to his world view. They are in effect using their position of authority to indoctrinate their child. Is that reasonable and fair? If so why?
Faith cannot and should not be forced. I dont feel that parents should "use their position of authority to indoctrinate their child'. That's not right. But there is a difference between taking a child to church with the parents and "forcing" faith on him. I feel that it is right for a parent to want to share their beleifs with their child. I know if I had a kid, I'd want him to feel as passionate about God and the church as I do. Id want them to feel the love that I have felt.
Quote from: PapistItalian16 on May 19, 2011, 03:24:33 PM
Quote from: Tank on May 19, 2011, 08:46:42 AM
Quote from: PapistItalian16 on May 18, 2011, 01:35:20 AM
I think its great that you respect your parents as much as you do, and I think it is also very great that you are setting that example for him. You seem to be a very good role model for your brother.
But I also dont feel that it is good to try and influence him too much on athiesm theism. Let him find his own way, you know? It's alright to tell him what you beleive about certain things, but dont go and bash religion completely (not that you have yet or anything :) ).
Being a younger brother myself, I find it very hard to not try and act like my older brother. You seem like a very good role model for him, but there is a difference in acting one way because of your role model and beleiving something just because that someone else beleives it.(I know, the pot calling the kettle black right? hahaha) Anyways, let him find truth, whether it be whats on the science channel or what's in The Bible. As long as he's happy right?
Just my two cents' ;) hope I didnt offend. :)
Would you give the same advice (that I underlined and inverted) to the Father and Mother? If not then why not? Because the parents are very much influencing the child in respect to his world view. They are in effect using their position of authority to indoctrinate their child. Is that reasonable and fair? If so why?
Faith cannot and should not be forced. I dont feel that parents should "use their position of authority to indoctrinate their child'. That's not right. But there is a difference between taking a child to church with the parents and "forcing" faith on him. I feel that it is right for a parent to want to share their beleifs with their child. I know if I had a kid, I'd want him to feel as passionate about God and the church as I do. Id want them to feel the love that I have felt.
That's quite a good answer. Can the child stay at home on Sunday? If not what choice does he have?
As Stevil (?) pointed out. The Theory of Evolution and those regarding the Big Bang do not address the existance or not of God. The chap who slaughtered the creationists at the Dover trial was a Catholic and teaches Evolution without any problem at all. In addition the Catholic church jumped on the proposition of the Big Bang very early on, as it gave the impression that there had to be a creator to 'light the fuse' as it were.
Thus there is no reason whatsoever that thedport should not explain these theories with his brother is there?
Quote from: Tank on May 19, 2011, 06:55:31 PM
That's quite a good answer. Can the child stay at home on Sunday? If not what choice does he have?
Thanks!
Quote from: Tank on May 19, 2011, 06:55:31 PM
As Stevil (?) pointed out. The Theory of Evolution and those regarding the Big Bang do not address the existance or not of God. The chap who slaughtered the creationists at the Dover trial was a Catholic and teaches Evolution without any problem at all. In addition the Catholic church jumped on the proposition of the Big Bang very early on, as it gave the impression that there had to be a creator to 'light the fuse' as it were.
Thus there is no reason whatsoever that thedport should not explain these theories with his brother is there?
Stevil did make a good point, and I shall adress that in a second.
But to answer your question: I think what I meant was mis understood, I never said that thedport shouldnt descuss these things with his brother. I just said that he shouldnt try and influence him too much on the idea of "there is no God" or "the Church and the Bible are wrong". I think its okay for him to tell his brother what he believes(or lack thereof) but I dont think he should "tell his brother what to beleive", so to speak. I think he should let him find his own way, and if his brother decides to beleive in God, well then God bless him, and if he doesnt, well then God bless him anyway.
Just my opinion.
Quote from: Stevil on May 19, 2011, 11:27:23 AM
Try not to confuse an understanding on the Big Bang theory and an understanding on the Theory of Evolution with Atheism.
There is no scripture or guide book to Atheism which says thou shalt believe in evolution or Big bang.
Atheism isn't really much of an 'ism and isn't a belief, it's simply a lack of belief in god/s.
Scientists and Cosmologists have developed a detailed and deep theory with regards to Big Bang, they do this by making observations, devising theories and models based on those observations and testing them. It doesn't have anything to do with god beliefs or lack of beliefs in god. It is simply a way of understanding and modelling the Universe within which we can observe.
If any of the god theories are actually the truth then the scientific method will remain consistant with that. It is only beliefs that are not the truth that should worry about scientific discoveries and if they are not the truth then it is better we find out sooner than later. The thing is that religion tends to deal in immaterial things like the soul, morals, God (being an immaterial, eternal being) it is rare that these things cross over into the world of material nature (temporal, spacial, substance). When claims of cross over do occur then they better be prepared for scientific methods of discovery, either that or be well guarded by the proponents of theology.
That's a good point.
To be quite honest with you, I do believe in the idea of evolution; I see no reason not to. Those cells that everything evolved from, well they came from something. I dont see how they could just "appear" unless there was someone to say "abra cadabra". And I also believe in the Big Bang theory as well. But someone had to be around to "flip the switch".
Quote from: Whitney on May 14, 2011, 11:57:41 PM
To offer a completely unbiased view of the evolution subject you can explain that evolution or even the big bang being true doesn't mean a god couldn't exist (I grew up accepting both with the bible and never had a problem because we weren't fundamentalists) and that science takes no stance on the existence of god (explained in whatever words he is able to currently understand). This is also least likely to get your parents upset with you.
I think this is the best advice given along with speaking to your parents about this situation.
I'm a father of two. One is 21 and the other is 15. From the perspective of a Christian parent, I wouldn't find it too pleasing to have the adult child going against my known wishes. I would assume you have grown up in the same household and were able to exit the religious hold on you. I'm not saying you can't give your brother some good scientific points to Evolution and/or the Big Bang. As Whitney stated, Christians today are quite open to the idea of either and still believe in God/the Bible.
As one or two have mentioned, you should speak with your parents on this matter. After all, it is their home, their child and you should respect their beliefs even if you disagree. You are milking them once again because you're unable (or it's more adventageous for you) to meet your own needs. To me, it would be much like a slap in the face.
Pretty soon your little brother may utter some words of, "Why do I need to go to church? Brother says there is no god.
Now think of this totally opposite and your own future child being influenced on something you disagree with or find it to
facilitate the retardation of his actual education.?
My youngest brother is still religious living with my religious parents. We're very close and we often talk a lot on Skype while I'm teaching him how to draw better and how to model, texture, rig, light, animate and render things in Blender. I never avoid talking about anything with my family, any of them, so when a topic comes up where either the church and/or the bible are wrong about something, I don't hold back.
If people were to listen to the conversations my family has (ignoring the laughter), they'd think we all hate eachother. The only time I abridge my speech is when my mother is present, I merely do it to avoid the irrational foul language mini-lectures. But aside from having to take some extra time to select a different word that means the same thing, nothing is held back. Of course sometimes I do intentionally use language she finds inappropriate.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 19, 2011, 08:13:31 PM
Quote from: Whitney on May 14, 2011, 11:57:41 PM
To offer a completely unbiased view of the evolution subject you can explain that evolution or even the big bang being true doesn't mean a god couldn't exist (I grew up accepting both with the bible and never had a problem because we weren't fundamentalists) and that science takes no stance on the existence of god (explained in whatever words he is able to currently understand). This is also least likely to get your parents upset with you.
I think this is the best advice given along with speaking to your parents about this situation.
I'm a father of two. One is 21 and the other is 15. From the perspective of a Christian parent, I wouldn't find it too pleasing to have the adult child going against my known wishes. I would assume you have grown up in the same household and were able to exit the religious hold on you. I'm not saying you can't give your brother some good scientific points to Evolution and/or the Big Bang. As Whitney stated, Christians today are quite open to the idea of either and still believe in God/the Bible.
As one or two have mentioned, you should speak with your parents on this matter. After all, it is their home, their child and you should respect their beliefs even if you disagree. You are milking them once again because you're unable (or it's more adventageous for you) to meet your own needs. To me, it would be much like a slap in the face.
Pretty soon your little brother may utter some words of, "Why do I need to go to church? Brother says there is no god.
Now think of this totally opposite and your own future child being influenced on something you disagree with or find it to facilitate the retardation of his actual education.?
I was raised by mild secular humanists in the wilds of Alaska. The 'wilds of Alaska' part is not relevant, but here's where the 'secular humanism' bit is: I became a born-again, honest-to-god, tongue-talking, filled-with-the-holy-spirit, evangelizing Christian, due to some helpful pushes from my other, more religious relatives. Much to the consternation of my parents. Well, consternation is not
quite right: let's say more befuddled bemusement. My father's reaction to this was priceless. He never insulted me or my beliefs, he never harangued me, he never belittled me. He merely engaged me in what he liked to term 'jousts' - battles of wit regarding everything from evolution to church doctrine. In the end, he forced me to learn so much about my positions, and his, that I decided on my own, after all, that my positions were untenable. It was his way of 'influencing' me in the other direction, I suppose. I did not come to his ideas out of some misguided 'respect' for his position as 'head-of-household,' I came to them because they made the most sense. If you have to resort to authority, which is essentially force, to convince someone of your veracity, you have undermined your own position.
Quote from: The Black Jester on May 20, 2011, 04:02:48 AM
If you have to resort to authority, which is essentially force, to convince someone of your veracity, you have undermined your own position.
If parenting to you equals leading by "authority" on all counts 24/7, 100%...so be it. I gave my opinion and you gave yours concerning my opinion. Thanks.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 20, 2011, 03:49:45 PM
Quote from: The Black Jester on May 20, 2011, 04:02:48 AM
If you have to resort to authority, which is essentially force, to convince someone of your veracity, you have undermined your own position.
If parenting to you equals leading by "authority" on all counts 24/7, 100%...so be it. I gave my opinion and you gave yours concerning my opinion. Thanks.
To be clear, if your child won't listen to your instructions to look both ways before crossing the street, no one will fault you for using your parental 'authority' to enforce that position. The evidence is clearly on your side. There is some disagreement as to whether or not the analogy carries to instructions on supernatural beliefs. However, I was speaking merely as a child having had a quite different experience with a parent regarding world-views and belief systems, and having found it an invaluable and appreciated approach
from the point of view of the child. My father brought me around to his way of thinking without enforcing anything. I cannot, however, speak to the desires or frustrations as a parent, as I have no children, so I will bow out of the discussion at this stage.
Quote from: The Black Jester on May 20, 2011, 04:26:22 PM
My father brought me around to his way of thinking without enforcing anything. I cannot, however, speak to the desires or frustrations as a parent, as I have no children, so I will bow out of the discussion at this stage.
Because we are dealing with religion here...an obvious point of contention here at HAF, it seems you equate religious beliefs and instruction as forced indoctrination. While at a young age it may be true, in some families to a greater degree than others, the child eventually turns the age of consent, that being different for every child. He/she will ultimately make their own decisions.
What I'm speaking of and conveying as my opinion here is that the older brother, while he may very well be right, is knowingly going against his parent's wishes. If it comes out as I played it out, that the little brother (at 9 yrs old) puts up a challenge to the parent that he no longer thinks it necessary for him to attend church, it will not go well for the older, adult sibling. If he loves his parents, then he would respect their manner of raising...after all, he was able and allowed to make his own decision when the time came and without the need of an older brother. His parents seem open and while they might be disappointed at their son's decision(s), they are showing that inspite of this, they love and will continue to support and help their son even when he disagrees with their beliefs. It's simply biting the hand that feeds you.
The smart thing for the parent to do if the younger makes that stand is not to lead by dictatorship, but do exactly as you say your father did with you. Have conversations that deal with the questions. Nothing wrong with that.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 20, 2011, 04:41:53 PM
The smart thing for the parent to do if the younger makes that stand is not to lead by dictatorship, but do exactly as you say your father did with you. Have conversations that deal with the questions. Nothing wrong with that.
Your position is much clearer to me, thank you. And if I'm truly frank and honest, I must in some measure contradict my own story. Even
my father's tolerance was not infinite. When my fundamentalist beliefs were clearly causing distress for my own younger brother (7 years my junior - an apt analog to the case under discussion), my father did tell me in no uncertain terms to keep the hellfire talk to myself. He did not forbid me to talk of my belief in god, however, merely to tone down the aspect of my belief that said "mommy and daddy are going to hell."