What do you all think? Is it okay to celebrate such a death, even if, like me, you are against the death penalty? I'm jumping up and down here. I'm very against the death penalty yet I feel like celebrating. Is there something horribly wrong with me?
Nope, nothing wrong with you at all.....
I just jumped up and hollered 'hot damn' a couple minutes ago.
I want to see a death certificate...
/sarcasm
People are gathering en masse here in NYC, at the World Trade Center site, celebrating despite the hour.
I don't see any need to celebrate until we're out of Afghanistan and Pakistan. In my opinion, we've spent way too much time and too many other lives trying to find Osama. Nothing's really going to change as a result of his death other than that maybe now we can start to exit the Middle East. Not permanently, of course. :-\
Bin Laden was not a common or garden murderer. He considered himself at war. He got what he deserved as a combatant. His death is basically a good thing, as would be the death of any senior general in an opposing army. The fact that his tactics were those of terror is really neither here-nor-there. It's wrong that he became the way he did because of the indoctrination of his upbringing, but I feel the world is generally better off that he is dead.
Personally I think it is much better that he was killed rather than captured (assuming he is actually dead). If he had been captured then he would have been a rallying point and propaganda focus.
When the SAS stormed the Iranian embassy they were under orders to make sure none of the terrorists were to get out alive. As it was one survived and is still in prison in the UK. There was a TV programme a while ago when the SAS troops involved told the story of what happened. In one case a terrorist was escaping be walking out with the hostages. He was recognised and shot, while still in the hostages. There were 27 bullets in his body and no injury to the hostages around him. Impressive work.
Quote from: Tank on May 02, 2011, 10:55:06 AM
Bin Laden was not a common or garden murderer. He considered himself at war. He got what he deserved as a combatant. His death is basically a good thing, as would be the death of any senior general in an opposing army. The fact that his tactics were those of terror is really neither here-nor-there. It's wrong that he became the way he did because of the indoctrination of his upbringing, but I feel the world is generally better off that he is dead.
Personally I think it is much better that he was killed rather than captured (assuming he is actually dead). If he had been captured then he would have been a rallying point and propaganda focus.
When the SAS stormed the Iranian embassy they were under orders to make sure none of the terrorists were to get out alive. As it was one survived and is still in prison in the UK. There was a TV programme a while ago when the SAS troops involved told the story of what happened. In one case a terrorist was escaping be walking out with the hostages. He was recognised and shot, while still in the hostages. There were 27 bullets in his body and no injury to the hostages around him. Impressive work.
Ditto and well writ!
Pics or it didn't happen.
Only a a true Muslim would grant the body of Osama Bin Laden, a terrorist responsible for thousands of deaths/murders of U.S. Citizens and otherwise...a proper Muslim burial. I have my doubts whether it was really OBL...even if it was, this was quite convenient timing for the present individual occupying the office of President.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 02, 2011, 09:24:16 PM
Only a a true Muslim would grant the body of Osama Bin Laden, a terrorist responsible for thousands of deaths/murders of U.S. Citizens and otherwise...a proper Muslim burial. I have my doubts whether it was really OBL...even if it was, this was quite convenient timing for the present individual occupying the office of President.
....aaaaand, the conspiracy theories begin.... ;)
@Hismikeness & Ihateyoumike: I think we need the long form death certificate.
@The Black Jester: I think Obama kidnapped Bin Laden back in 2002, held him in the basement of a secret house in near the eastern shores in like North Carolina to be held until after Bush was out of office, the plan was to make Bush look inadequate to get him voted out, but was foiled in 2004 when he got re-elected. So they held onto Bin Laden so ensure that the Republicans would still look bad (even though they weren't even invading the right country), to make sure a Democrate got elected. Then Obama held onto Bin Laden for just such a time when his approval ratings are falling (just as they do for every president at least as long as they've been recording approval ratings), in order to help Obama get re-elected. So they picked Bin Ladens brain through the eye socket, put him into a GPS navigated torpedo and launched him in the ocean to be collected by a secret group and planted somewhere to be captured and/or killed.
It's so simple it just might work...
Quote from: Tank on May 02, 2011, 10:55:06 AM
Bin Laden was not a common or garden murderer. He considered himself at war. He got what he deserved as a combatant. His death is basically a good thing, as would be the death of any senior general in an opposing army. The fact that his tactics were those of terror is really neither here-nor-there. It's wrong that he became the way he did because of the indoctrination of his upbringing, but I feel the world is generally better off that he is dead.
Personally I think it is much better that he was killed rather than captured (assuming he is actually dead). If he had been captured then he would have been a rallying point and propaganda focus.
Agreed.
Quote from: Davin on May 02, 2011, 09:50:47 PM
@The Black Jester: I think Obama kidnapped Bin Laden back in 2002, held him in the basement of a secret house in near the eastern shores in like North Carolina to be held until after Bush was out of office, the plan was to make Bush look inadequate to get him voted out, but was foiled in 2004 when he got re-elected. So they held onto Bin Laden so ensure that the Republicans would still look bad (even though they weren't even invading the right country), to make sure a Democrate got elected. Then Obama held onto Bin Laden for just such a time when his approval ratings are falling (just as they do for every president at least as long as they've been recording approval ratings), in order to help Obama get re-elected. So they picked Bin Ladens brain through the eye socket, put him into a GPS navigated torpedo and launched him in the ocean to be collected by a secret group and planted somewhere to be captured and/or killed.
It's so simple it just might work...
Are you sure?? 'Cause I'M pretty sure Obama....IS...BIN LADEN!!!!!
Think about it...they're
never seen together. America is the perfect place to hide from our forces, while they're trudging around Afghanistan and even...don't you love the irony...IRAQ. ;D America itself is the last place you'd look. Just some quick plastic surgery and a fake long-form birth certificate - presto. President of the United States! Just need to conveniently fake your own death, which is easy to do when you've got the entire US Treasury behind you. Sure, it's crazy. Crazy
like a FOX!!!
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 02, 2011, 09:24:16 PM
Only a a true Muslim would grant the body of Osama Bin Laden, a terrorist responsible for thousands of deaths/murders of U.S. Citizens and otherwise...a proper Muslim burial. I have my doubts whether it was really OBL...even if it was, this was quite convenient timing for the present individual occupying the office of President.
I can only hope that this is laced with facetiousness.
I debated with myself all day about what I thought of the water burial. In fact, I did a quick Google of it, because I didn't know that was a Muslim tradition. I found a lot of interesting stuff about water and burials, (this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_at_sea) and this (http://www.ruthfullyyours.com/2011/05/02/burial-at-sea-for-muslims-only-if-they-die-on-a-ship/)), stating that it is permissible to bury a Muslim at sea
if he dies on a ship, but nothing stating that Islamic tradition is to bury in the water. Perhaps I didn't query Google correctly. Either way, I think it was the right move. Bringing his body back to the States, or even worse turning it over to another country could lead to further fanaticism. Ol' W might have smeared his corpse with pig's blood or something, just to, you know, show em who the good guys are.
I have no doubts that it was OBL. If the Pakistani government or another middle eastern government had claimed
they had killed him, I would be much more skeptical. But just imagine the shit storm that would be brewed up if in a week or two, after a certain claim of death and a national briefing and all this hoopla, if OBL turned up alive... I don't think that would be worth the inevitable and no doubt short lived bump in approval rating for BHO. I am confident they got the right terrorist.
I can't really argue with the convenient timing. I am sensing,
AnimatedDirt that by calling this announcement on the 1st of May, 2011, convenient that you believe it could have been done or possibly was done at some other time and now was the most beneficial time to enact the raid or at least release the news? Wouldn't a little later, closer to reelection time be better? Or maybe it's convenient because it was the same day that Hitler's death was verified? Or maybe... actually I can't think of any reason at all why it would be convenient, and based on your other comments, can't put myself inside your head enough to figure out why it is you think it is convenient timing either.
Anyway, I'm hoping you were being sarcastic.
@The Black Jester: ZOMG, you're totally onto something!
That's why there was a break in Osama videos until Obama started becoming a public figure!
Quote from: hismikeness on May 02, 2011, 10:35:19 PM
I can only hope that this is laced with facetiousness.
Anyway, I'm hoping you were being sarcastic.
It has nothing to do with the body being buried at sea, but rather the person of OBL being given the respect he (OBL) neglected to give thousands of others, including his own. It is evident to me that the person in office not only understands the importance of a proper Muslim burial, but empathizes with "his brother". OBL should have gotten the same burial the average person gets...bodily burial or cremation...probably cremation.
Muslim Burial according to about.com:
QuoteThe deceased is then taken to the cemetery for burial (al-dafin). While all members of the community attend the funeral prayers, only the men of the community accompany the body to the gravesite. It is preferred for a Muslim to be buried where he or she died, and not be transported to another location or country (which may cause delays or require embalming the body). If available, a cemetery (or section of one) set aside for Muslims is preferred. The deceased is laid in the grave (without a coffin if permitted by local law) on his or her right side, facing Mecca. At the gravesite, it is discouraged for people to erect tombstones, elaborate markers, or put flowers or other momentos. Rather, one should humbly remember Allah and His mercy, and pray for the deceased.
http://islam.about.com/cs/elderly/a/funerals.htm
I don't see how a sea burial would be traditionally Muslim as it does not fit the requirements of being where the person died or of facing mecca.
There is also this article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382828/Osama-bin-Laden-Why-given-traditional-Islamic-burial.html
Which explains why both sides are pissed about the way he was buried...the US side being pissed that he was buried at all and the Muslim side being pissed that he wasn't buried properly.
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that"
— Martin Luther King Jr.
The sea burial was apparently their only choice. CNN reported this morning that there wasn't a single country that wanted Bin Laden's remains.
I think it's bad news.
If I were Al Quaida, I'd have a proper chain of command. And if the general got killed, a new man would step in and fill the void. How do we know the new man not to be more ruthless and competent than the old one..? Time will tell. But me, I'm betting that something is gonna blow up soon enough.
I'm not really okay with any of this.
First off, Osama bin Laden was incredibly successful in his attack, not just in the physical devastation at Ground Zero and the Pentagon, but in that our country has basically imploded since then. We allowed ourselves to give into fear, which meant committing to unnecessary wars, curtailing freedom, and basically starting to rot internally a la Rome. How many people have died in Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan and Yemen? How many people are being held without due process in military prisons all over the world? How many phone conversations and emails have been simply turned over to the government, which in turn granted telecoms retroactive immunity? It's almost too much to even think about.
In addition, Osama bin Laden allegedly himself benefited from CIA training. We (he and the United States) were on the same side in Afghanistan when the mujahadin (sp?) defeated the Soviet Union. He was anti-communist and anti-atheist back then. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, Saudi Arabia asked the United States for help instead of bin Laden, and he took that very personally. He decided that Western influence and power in the area was just as dangerous as Soviet power had once been, and he took his Saudi royal money and started to plan terrorist attacks.
Finally, after evading the United States for nearly a decade, he ends up getting shot through the head and just dropped into the ocean. No trial, no sentencing, no extracting intelligence. I'm not even sure it's justice at this point.
The sad part is that his death isn't really going to mean anything significant. We're not leaving Iraq or Afghanistan. We're not releasing all of our prisoners at Guantanamo or anywhere else. We're still undoubtedly being spied on. People all over the United States will be sexually assaulted at airports.
But I guess this victory wasn't for people like me. I'm bitter and tired from this decade of fear and hate. I've never been nationalistic or patriotic, as I see them as irrational biases. If people can enjoy this, they should, I guess.
Quote from: Will on May 03, 2011, 08:02:18 AMBut I guess this victory wasn't for people like me. I'm bitter and tired from this decade of fear and hate. I've never been nationalistic or patriotic, as I see them as irrational biases. If people can enjoy this, they should, I guess.
Me, I think those who can see this mess as a victory should have their 15 minutes of glee... However, where are we at once the 15 minutes are up?
I think you have a valid point on that. I also think that countries which have not experienced acts of terror within their borders may fall victim to vengeance for the death of bin Laden, which in turn was little more than an act of vengeance for the deaths he was a direct or otherwise part of, which in turn was... You see where it goes, yes? For what can war, but endless war still breed?
Good post, Will. A kudo to you for that.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 02, 2011, 11:44:07 PM
It has nothing to do with the body being buried at sea, but rather the person of OBL being given the respect he (OBL) neglected to give thousands of others, including his own. It is evident to me that the person in office not only understands the importance of a proper Muslim burial, but empathizes with "his brother". OBL should have gotten the same burial the average person gets...bodily burial or cremation...probably cremation.
Wow, are you serious? You're implying that President Obama is a Muslim? Get a grip, man.
As for the sea burial: The Muslim tradition is that sea burial is only used when a person dies at sea, and the vessel is too far from land to get them into the ground within the prescribed time. So this way of disposing of bin Laden was not really what somebody who "empathized with 'his brother'" would do. There was a good reason beyond what has already been mentioned that the dirt bag wasn't buried on land; there would be the possibility that his grave could become a shrine for extremists. Even if they didn't know where it was, somebody could just say they had discovered it, and so set up a place to venerate bin Laden. To a certain extent (quick burial) Muslim custom was followed, probably to show that the US is not at war with Islam, but as
Whitney and others have pointed out, sea burial really doesn't please Muslims.
If I understand your post correctly, and you're serious, I'm going to have to re-evaluate my opinion regarding the level of delusion you suffer under. If I misunderstood, I apologize. If you're not serious, then your trolling chops have improved considerably.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quote from: Asmodean on May 03, 2011, 06:11:27 AM
I think it's bad news.
If I were Al Quaida, I'd have a proper chain of command. And if the general got killed, a new man would step in and fill the void. How do we know the new man not to be more ruthless and competent than the old one..? Time will tell. But me, I'm betting that something is gonna blow up soon enough.
I doubt that bin Laden was all that active in directing al-Qaeda in the last few years. The second in command, al-Zawahri, and others have most likely been calling the shots.
Yes, I'm sure that what's left of al-Qaeda will at least attempt to make a show of force. What do you think the US should have done? Kill the bastard and keep it quiet? It's not like that would have made any difference in regards to a possible reaction from al-Qaeda. The operation was a "dead or alive" deal. If it had been possible to without exposing the operatives to danger, they were to capture bin Laden, but there was no way he was going to get away. Capture or death, either way it would have had an effect on al-Qaeda. President Obama said that he would make it a priority to get bin Laden, and followed through. I don't see an upside to having found him, just let him stay in his compound and possibly escape.
Quote from: fester30 on May 02, 2011, 04:13:23 AM
What do you all think? Is it okay to celebrate such a death, even if, like me, you are against the death penalty? I'm jumping up and down here. I'm very against the death penalty yet I feel like celebrating. Is there something horribly wrong with me?
I did a little cheer inside when i heard the news. A few people are saying you should never celebrate the death of someone (on other forums) but i have to disagree. Bin Laden deleted his right to be labelled 'human' years ago and therefore, his death should be celebrated.
I'm really enjoying the different points of view here. I do agree that some other a-hole will take Bin Laden's place, but it'll be difficult for the next a-hole to have the same impact. It's going to be hard to find such a seasoned war hero with serious extremist terrorist street cred that Bin Laden had. We will continue to wage the war in Afghanistan, unfortunately, something that didn't work out for any other conqueror in history. While the Taliban used to lead that country, even they didn't have control over all the areas.
As for the President being a Muslim, the evidence just isn't there. I'm not saying he isn't, but it's just impossible to know what goes on inside someone else's head for certain. All we can do is take someone at their words and actions. I saw a TV interview of one of the Tea Party members at a rally. The reporter asked the lady about the President. She said that you can't go to a church for 20 years and not believe in what the preacher is preaching. The reporter then pointed out that it's a Christian church, so the lady must be saying Obama is a Christian. The lady backpedaled and said of course not, he's a Muslim. If I can find the Youtube clip again I'll post it. I saw the clip just randomly going around Youtube videos.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42864812/ns/technology_and_science-science/from/toolbar/?gt1=43001
And for those who think Obama is a muslim.... How often do we see him drop facing Meca for prayer during his public venues that happen to coincide with prayer times? Being a muslim in heritage is not being a muslim in religion. Just thought I'd throw that our since the community I live with wouldn't understand that concept. It's like if I went to an islamic country, they'd probably refer to me as christian or some such when I myself am not, parents were but not me.
Quote from: KDbeads on May 03, 2011, 02:54:23 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42864812/ns/technology_and_science-science/from/toolbar/?gt1=43001
And for those who think Obama is a muslim.... How often do we see him drop facing Meca for prayer during his public venues that happen to coincide with prayer times? Being a muslim in heritage is not being a muslim in religion. Just thought I'd throw that our since the community I live with wouldn't understand that concept. It's like if I went to an islamic country, they'd probably refer to me as christian or some such when I myself am not, parents were but not me.
Even by heritage that would only make him half. Not to mention that I've heard rumors that his mom was some type of pagan/spiritualist and his dad was possibly atheist. Which leads me to think that religion just didn't play a role in his young life. But like other American leaders as he went further in his attempts to organize communities he realized that teaming up with the churches was the most effective means of getting the community on board with his ideas. Not to mention that a person who doesn't care for or against religion marrying a Christian tends to make them convert to Christianity.
Quote from: Will on May 03, 2011, 08:02:18 AM
no extracting intelligence
Reports I've read state that many computers and documents were collected from the scene and are being delivered to the CIA for intelligence gathering.
As for extracting info from him, I doubt he would talk much without some serious intervention from Jack Bauer. :D
Quote from: Will on May 03, 2011, 08:02:18 AM
No trial, no sentencing
Here's a very interesting set of 5 questions (http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/05/03/toobin.bin.laden.trial/index.html?hpt=T2) had OBL been taken alive, regarding the trial that would have taken place.
Quote from: Whitney on May 03, 2011, 03:59:14 AM
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that"
— Martin Luther King Jr.
Seems many of us were faked out by this non-MLK MLK quote. The story of how it came to be:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/05/anatomy-of-a-fake-quotation/238257/
Quote from: McQ on May 03, 2011, 07:59:09 PM
Quote from: Whitney on May 03, 2011, 03:59:14 AM
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that"
— Martin Luther King Jr.
Seems many of us were faked out by this non-MLK MLK quote. The story of how it came to be:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/05/anatomy-of-a-fake-quotation/238257/
Ya...someone on facebook pointed that out too (only told me to snopes it and it wasn't on snopes...one day snopes will go conservative and it will be funny to see how many people continue to use it as the end source for all their fact checking ;) ). I like that Penn was the one who caused it to go viral; very ironic. I think it's a good quote even if little suzy down the street said it :)
Quote from: Recusant on May 03, 2011, 11:18:30 AM
Wow, are you serious? You're implying that President Obama is a Muslim? Get a grip, man.
I'm not implying the guy in the Oval Office is Muslim, I'm implying his Muslim roots are more intact than we think or even he portrays them to be. For a devout Christian, it seems he is more interested in promoting the Muslim faith than his own faith. (Not that he should promote either as President) As a small tid-bit of information that is not necessarily the whole basis:
QuoteBy comparison, the White House has released statements recognizing the observance of major Muslim holidays and released statements in 2010 on Ramadan, Eid-ul-Fitr, Hajj, and Eid-ul-Adha.
Quote from What? No Easter Greeting? (http://www.whitehousedossier.com/2011/04/25/easter-greeting/)
I don't think any President should be promoting ANY religion. Why are we allowing him to promote the Muslim religion...and if he is such a "devout" Christian, why not promote Christianity as it runs opposite to the Muslim religion in many regards. It's just a bunch of political games...one day he distances himself from anything seemingly Muslim (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/06/obama-distances.html) and the next he's promoting the Muslim lifestyle in America.
White House Video (http://www.debbieschlussel.com/5265/obama-white-house-video-promotes-islam-recognizes-northern-palestine-in-video-to-muslim-world/)
This and other small things he does/has done (bowing to Saudi King). I simply don't trust the guy. I don't put any trust politicians...and even less in this Hussein character.
Again, I realized the burial at sea isn't necessarily a Muslim tradition, but his body was given all the Muslim rights before dropped into the ocean. Why? Why was this murder given this right, is my question?
It's just another point that shows his true belief(s).
It's called diplomacy.
Misguided, in my view, but a fact of political life.
Quote from: Whitney on May 03, 2011, 03:59:14 AM
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that"
— Martin Luther King Jr.
Not that I disagree, but that's a partially fake quote (http://thelastword.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/05/03/6574605-fake-mlk-quote-from-bin-ladens-death).
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 03, 2011, 10:00:09 PM
Quote from: Recusant on May 03, 2011, 11:18:30 AM
Wow, are you serious? You're implying that President Obama is a Muslim? Get a grip, man.
I'm not implying the guy in the Oval Office is Muslim, I'm implying his Muslim roots are more intact than we think or even he portrays them to be. For a devout Christian, it seems he is more interested in promoting the Muslim faith than his own faith.
What? He hasn't said anything different that Bush said ("we are not at war with Islam"). Bush even called it a "great faith".
Just amazing, Obama can't even kill a muslim extremist without these sort of accusations.
Quote from: Sophus on May 03, 2011, 11:35:38 PM
Just amazing, Obama can't even kill a muslim extremist without these sort of accusations.
As if OBL wouldn't have been found without Hussein? lol.
Quote from: Sophus on May 03, 2011, 11:10:50 PM
Quote from: Whitney on May 03, 2011, 03:59:14 AM
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that"
— Martin Luther King Jr.
Not that I disagree, but that's a partially fake quote (http://thelastword.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/05/03/6574605-fake-mlk-quote-from-bin-ladens-death).
You're late to the ball. It's already been thrown back to the pitcher.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 03, 2011, 10:00:09 PMI'm not implying the guy in the Oval Office is Muslim, I'm implying his Muslim roots are more intact than we think or even he portrays them to be. For a devout Christian, it seems he is more interested in promoting the Muslim faith than his own faith. (Not that he should promote either as President) As a small tid-bit of information that is not necessarily the whole basis:
QuoteBy comparison, the White House has released statements recognizing the observance of major Muslim holidays and released statements in 2010 on Ramadan, Eid-ul-Fitr, Hajj, and Eid-ul-Adha.
Quote from What? No Easter Greeting? (http://www.whitehousedossier.com/2011/04/25/easter-greeting/)
Apparently you didn't read the final sentence in the article which you quoted. It gives the lie to both the headline and the information contained in the first part of the article, which unsurprisingly came from Fox News. I don't know if you've been paying attention, but Fox News regularly makes "mistakes" in which it puts out "information" that its viewers consider damning of certain politicians (pretty much exclusively politicians on the left) that is later shown to have been false. It is too much of a pattern to be coincidence. In plain words, Fox News lies. On a regular basis. Now let's look at that final sentence:
QuoteFrom What? No Easter Greeting? (http://www.whitehousedossier.com/2011/04/25/easter-greeting/):
Fox News is incorrect. Obama does mention Easter in his weekend address, though he does so only briefly and not as a message or greeting to Christians celebrating the holiday.
Hmm. So the attention grabbing headline was based on a lie. And the reporter chooses to interpret what the President said as "not a message or greeting," but he doesn't bother to quote what the President actually said. For somebody who calls himself a "veteran White House reporter" you would expect higher standards, especially considering that he knew that it was a lie.
As for President Obama's supposed "Muslim heritage," I don't know if you are aware of the fact that his mother was non-religious and his father was
QuoteFrom Snopes.com "Who is Barack Obama?" (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp):
"...an atheist or agnostic (i.e., no longer a practicing Muslim) by the time he married the younger Obama's mother."
I consider it quite reasonable for the leader of the US to reach out to Muslims in general, so that they understand that while the US will continue to protect its interests (and beyond, but that's a topic for another thread) it does not consider Islam to be an enemy. You see a crypto-Muslim element in President Obama's public statements, but I think it's because that's what you want to see. The tone of this and your previous posts show this whether you admit it or not.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 03, 2011, 10:00:09 PMI don't think any President should be promoting ANY religion. Why are we allowing him to promote the Muslim religion...and if he is such a "devout" Christian, why not promote Christianity as it runs opposite to the Muslim religion in many regards. It's just a bunch of political games...one day he distances himself from anything seemingly Muslim (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/06/obama-distances.html) and the next he's promoting the Muslim lifestyle in America.
A president acknowledging Muslim holidays is not promoting Islam or "promoting the Muslim lifestyle in America"; he's exhibiting good manners. Just as he acknowledged Easter, despite the lies told by Fox and parroted in the headline linked in the first part of your post. I'm wondering if you read the article you linked in the above quote. Despite the headline, nowhere in that article is there any evidence that Obama himself was trying to avoid the use of his middle name. It speaks of his campaign staff. Whether the fact that the staff didn't make regular use of his middle name was the result of a decision by Obama or senior campaign managers is not ever stated. So the writer and you draw an inference. Congratulations on your perspicacity, however overzealous it might be.
QuoteWhite House Video (http://www.debbieschlussel.com/5265/obama-white-house-video-promotes-islam-recognizes-northern-palestine-in-video-to-muslim-world/)
I find it very telling that all of the information you've used in an attempt to justify your implications comes from right wing media. Nothing wrong with that if it's balanced by neutral sources or left wing media, but Debbie Schlussel is a blatant wing-nut propagandist. I've read her stuff before and felt nauseated, and this little hit-piece you linked is no different.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 03, 2011, 10:00:09 PMThis and other small things he does/has done (bowing to Saudi King). I simply don't trust the guy. I don't put any trust politicians...and even less in this Hussein character.
Again, I realized the burial at sea isn't necessarily a Muslim tradition, but his body was given all the Muslim rights before dropped into the ocean. Why? Why was this murder given this right, is my question?
I suppose that the sight of Bush II holding hands with a Saudi prince like a pair of little girls was easily dismissed by you as "just normal diplomacy."
"This Hussein character?"
(x2) Again, get a grip man. You can harp on his middle name and the fact that his father was at one time a Muslim all you want, but President Obama is a Christian American, nothing else.
As for why the body of bin Laden was treated with a modicum of decency, it's generally what Americans try to pride themselves on. It wasn't dragged through streets the way that some of the enemies of the US have done with the bodies of Americans. Would you have us emulate such despicable behavior?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 03, 2011, 10:00:09 PMIt's just another point that shows his true belief(s).
This is what the whole post was leading up to. You begin by denying you think that the president is a Muslim, but you end by hinting that you actually think that he is. I'm disappointed in you sir. Say what you actually mean, or stop the ridiculous insinuations.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 03, 2011, 11:54:28 PM
Quote from: Sophus on May 03, 2011, 11:35:38 PM
Just amazing, Obama can't even kill a muslim extremist without these sort of accusations.
As if OBL wouldn't have been found without Hussein? lol.
Hussein? Using his middle name to make him sound "scary" is low.
And he did give the orders to kill bin Laden. Orders I don't agree with. But I don't have resort to fabrications and immature rumors about him to feel like I'm making a valid point.
Quote from: Heretical Rants on May 04, 2011, 02:35:45 AM
Quote from: Sophus on May 03, 2011, 11:10:50 PM
Quote from: Whitney on May 03, 2011, 03:59:14 AM
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that"
— Martin Luther King Jr.
Not that I disagree, but that's a partially fake quote (http://thelastword.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/05/03/6574605-fake-mlk-quote-from-bin-ladens-death).
You're late to the ball. It's already been thrown back to the pitcher.
Oh.... so I have. :)
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 03, 2011, 11:54:28 PM
Quote from: Sophus on May 03, 2011, 11:35:38 PM
Just amazing, Obama can't even kill a muslim extremist without these sort of accusations.
As if OBL wouldn't have been found without Hussein? lol.
Gosh, that sounded just like my mother. :o
I guess I know what kind of theist you are now.
Not to mention the fact that for the 8 years previous to "Hussein" (as you call him) he
wasn't found or killed.
Quote from: hismikeness on May 04, 2011, 03:59:32 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 03, 2011, 11:54:28 PM
Quote from: Sophus on May 03, 2011, 11:35:38 PM
Just amazing, Obama can't even kill a muslim extremist without these sort of accusations.
As if OBL wouldn't have been found without Hussein? lol.
Gosh, that sounded just like my mother. :o
I guess I know what kind of theist you are now.
Not to mention the fact that for the 8 years previous to "Hussein" (as you call him) he wasn't found or killed.
Bill Maher has weighed in.... "Bin Laden, Gaddafi kid - how many Muslims does a black man have to kill in one weekend before the crackers climb down off his ass?"
I'm not one to get excited about a revenge killing. It's just like gang warfare, it goes on forever with tit for tat.
Would have been better if he were caught and brought before the courts.
I also think Bush, Obama and the like are guilty of horrendous war crimes and should be brought before an international court, but a shame such justice does not exist.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 03, 2011, 10:00:09 PM
I don't think any President should be promoting ANY religion. Why are we allowing him to promote the Muslim religion...and if he is such a "devout" Christian, why not promote Christianity as it runs opposite to the Muslim religion in many regards. It's just a bunch of political games...one day he distances himself from anything seemingly Muslim (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/06/obama-distances.html) and the next he's promoting the Muslim lifestyle in America.
Would you be for removing Christmas and Easter as national holidays and replacing with something more secular?
Quote from: Stevil on May 04, 2011, 09:05:33 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 03, 2011, 10:00:09 PM
I don't think any President should be promoting ANY religion. Why are we allowing him to promote the Muslim religion...and if he is such a "devout" Christian, why not promote Christianity as it runs opposite to the Muslim religion in many regards. It's just a bunch of political games...one day he distances himself from anything seemingly Muslim (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/06/obama-distances.html) and the next he's promoting the Muslim lifestyle in America.
Would you be for removing Christmas and Easter as national holidays and replacing with something more secular?
Easter is not a national (federal) holiday. However, your point is made because Christmas is.
I wonder, Animated Dirt... were you as supportive of Bush and his "faith initiatives" as you are critical of Obama and his attempts to make Muslims feel like they aren't under attack in America?
QuoteWould you be for removing Christmas and Easter as national holidays and replacing with something more secular?
I don't care whether Christmas is or isn't a federal holiday. In fact, I would welcome removing it as a holiday and tradition all-together. I'd certainly save a few bucks! It is misplaced anyway as "the Reason for the Season"
QuoteI wonder, Animated Dirt... were you as supportive of Bush and his "faith initiatives" as you are critical of Obama and his attempts to make Muslims feel like they aren't under attack in America?
Not at all...I think I already mentioned I don't think a person in Office should support any religion.
Recussant: It's my opinion and it is based on what I see, hear, read and a bit of some gut feeling (never proven 100% correct). I'm apologize for not measuring up to your liking.
I'm simply not getting this quoting system...
Goody-gum-drops, Bin Laden is dead.
Incidentally, AD, I'm not sure if burying someone according to their own religious customs could really be called unsecular, so long as you're doing it on an individual basis and not standardising it for whole groups of people. It's when you start saying things like "schools should be allowed to force morning prayer on all of their kids, regardless of background" that you're crossing the line.
Though I do think it was a slightly odd gesture, considering he was the most hated man in the Western world, so it wouldn't surprise me if there's something we're not being told. To speculate about what that could be, though, would be unreliable, unconfirmable, and probably a step down the road to conspirasy theory-ville.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 04, 2011, 06:35:19 PM
Recussant: It's my opinion and it is based on what I see, hear, read and a bit of some gut feeling (never proven 100% correct). I'm apologize for not measuring up to your liking.
I'm simply not getting this quoting system...
If what you're reading is the bloviations of such myopic bile-spewing assholes as Debbie Schlussel, you need to broaden your horizons.
I'd be happy to try to help with whatever problems you have with the quote function on this new forum software, by the way.
Quote from: Recusant on May 05, 2011, 02:16:36 AM
If what you're reading is the bloviations of such myopic bile-spewing assholes as Debbie Schlussel, you need to broaden your horizons.
I don't read only certain articles, I read what comes up on searches on the subject. Yahoo, MSN, Drudge, and Google News and the good 'ole L.A. Times hard copies, among others. Maybe you can point me to better sources. I'm not sure I've ever read any other piece by Debbie S.
Quote from: RecusantI'd be happy to try to help with whatever problems you have with the quote function on this new forum software, by the way.
It's just a hair more complicated...I don't get it, but I'll get it eventually. :) Thx.
BTW...a new website has popped up providing a shred of evidence that the "gutsycall" is more a campaign move than a move to make wrongs right.
I don't encourage you to go to it, but gutsycalldotcom is now a 2012 campaign site for the "caller".
Foreign accent syndrome is where someone talks with a foreign accent unwillingly due to some sort of traumatic brain injury. Brits talk with a foreign accent, and more than half are non-religious. George Soros is an atheist, therefore the Brits pulled the strings that caused Soros to tell Obama to pretend to kill Osama and claim they have pictures they won't show us. Is the USA run by brain damage? I post, you decide.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on May 03, 2011, 10:00:09 PM
Quote from: Recusant on May 03, 2011, 11:18:30 AM
Wow, are you serious? You're implying that President Obama is a Muslim? Get a grip, man.
I'm not implying the guy in the Oval Office is Muslim, I'm implying his Muslim roots are more intact than we think or even he portrays them to be. For a devout Christian, it seems he is more interested in promoting the Muslim faith than his own faith. (Not that he should promote either as President) As a small tid-bit of information that is not necessarily the whole basis:
QuoteBy comparison, the White House has released statements recognizing the observance of major Muslim holidays and released statements in 2010 on Ramadan, Eid-ul-Fitr, Hajj, and Eid-ul-Adha.
Quote from What? No Easter Greeting? (http://www.whitehousedossier.com/2011/04/25/easter-greeting/)
I don't think any President should be promoting ANY religion. Why are we allowing him to promote the Muslim religion...and if he is such a "devout" Christian, why not promote Christianity as it runs opposite to the Muslim religion in many regards. It's just a bunch of political games...one day he distances himself from anything seemingly Muslim (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/06/obama-distances.html) and the next he's promoting the Muslim lifestyle in America.
White House Video (http://www.debbieschlussel.com/5265/obama-white-house-video-promotes-islam-recognizes-northern-palestine-in-video-to-muslim-world/)
This and other small things he does/has done (bowing to Saudi King). I simply don't trust the guy. I don't put any trust politicians...and even less in this Hussein character.
Again, I realized the burial at sea isn't necessarily a Muslim tradition, but his body was given all the Muslim rights before dropped into the ocean. Why? Why was this murder given this right, is my question?
It's just another point that shows his true belief(s).
You're fucking with me. I really hope you are just trying to fuck with people.
Anyway. Martin Luther King Jr. wasn't Christ almighty. He was a brave man but his ideas and assertions are hardly sacrosant. I'm glad Osama Bin Laden is dead. Hopefully al-Zawahiri will be following soon enough.
I am really confused by the "giving the body respect" business. What the hell were they supposed to do with it? String him up in Time's Square? Throw him in a dumpster? I get that a lot of people hated him, but a body is a body, and what you do with it is more of a reflection of you than of it. There are a lot of really horrible people on death row, but I'm still pretty sure that they get a burial after they are executed. It's called being civilized.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on May 08, 2011, 05:40:24 PM
I am really confused by the "giving the body respect" business. What the hell were they supposed to do with it? String him up in Time's Square? Throw him in a dumpster? I get that a lot of people hated him, but a body is a body, and what you do with it is more of a reflection of you than of it. There are a lot of really horrible people on death row, but I'm still pretty sure that they get a burial after they are executed. It's called being civilized.
I don't understand it either...
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on May 08, 2011, 05:40:24 PM
I get that a lot of people hated him, but a body is a body, and what you do with it is more of a reflection of you than of it. There are a lot of really horrible people on death row, but I'm still pretty sure that they get a burial after they are executed. It's called being civilized.
Exactly
US diver on maverick mission to find Bin Laden's body (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-13764385)
QuoteA US salvage diver says he will scour the bottom of the north Arabian Sea to hunt for the body of Osama Bin Laden.
Bill Warren says that he wants to establish once and for all whether the al-Qaeda leader was killed by US forces in May, and then buried out at sea.
Mr Warren, 59, says his search will begin in about four weeks time, and will cost around $400,000 (£245,000).
He admits it will be like looking for a needle in a haystack, but maintains it is not an impossible mission...
The conspiracy theorists will, of course, consider this a cover up!
Didn't Bin Laden die a few years back? That's what I heard. Not sure if it's true though.
Well he better move fast. There are a load of hungry fish in the sea.
Quote from: Evilbeagle on July 27, 2011, 08:44:50 PM
Well he better move fast. There are a load of hungry fish in the sea.
There is a chap in the USA who is going to try to find his body to prove he is dead and not just tucked into a little cell in the corner of Guantanamo Bay.
Quote from: Abletony on July 25, 2011, 01:21:53 PM
Didn't Bin Laden die a few years back? That's what I heard. Not sure if it's true though.
This is a conspiracy theory. Some opponents of President Bush and the "war on terror" claimed that Bin Laden had been dead since 2001, or 2003, or 2007... basically that he's been dead for a long time, and the Bush administration chose to cover that up so that they could justify continuing to fight the wars. This is the same Bush administration that paraded their trophy, Saddam Hussein, all over television every chance they got. I just find that hard to believe. They didn't need a reason to stay in Iraq, other than stability of Iraq. I think they would have likely used the same excuse in Afghanistan if they wanted to stay there.