Happy Atheist Forum

I'll be honest, the dating scene hasn't been going very well for me. Senior year in high school, I asked out the girl I really liked to prom and I wanted to continue seeing her over the summer but after graduation she completely stopped talking to me. Freshman year of college, I tried to hang out/get to know this girl that I sat next to in Resources Geology. I got her number but she didn't seem interested in doing anything. A little later, I found that I kinda liked one of my female friends and I wanted to go out with her but I got friend zoned so hard especially since she told me in a text "You're like the brother I never had!". And a few days ago, I asked this girl out to lunch who I know through one of my friends, but she said she wasn't interested in a relationship (in a text) but I still got lunch with her (which did go well) so that probably won't go anywhere. Is it just me or are many girls not interested in "nice guys" like me? What am I to do? Become a selfish asshole?

Quote from: "Godless"I'll be honest, the dating scene hasn't been going very well for me. Senior year in high school, I asked out the girl I really liked to prom and I wanted to continue seeing her over the summer but after graduation she completely stopped talking to me. Freshman year of college, I tried to hang out/get to know this girl that I sat next to in Resources Geology. I got her number but she didn't seem interested in doing anything. A little later, I found that I kinda liked one of my female friends and I wanted to go out with her but I got friend zoned so hard especially since she told me in a text "You're like the brother I never had!". And a few days ago, I asked this girl out to lunch who I know through one of my friends, but she said she wasn't interested in a relationship (in a text) but I still got lunch with her (which did go well) so that probably won't go anywhere. Is it just me or are many girls not interested in "nice guys" like me? What am I to do? Become a selfish asshole?

Be yourself and the right person will find you in the end.

Yeah...life is rough bro. Its a commonly known fact that guys don't understand girls and girls don't understand guys. Way it is I guess.

--FT

Quote from: "Godless"she said she wasn't interested in a relationship

How did that come up?

There is a difference between dating and being in a relationship.  When I met my husband neither of us wanted to be in a relationship but we were interested in dating.

First of all, that thing in the movie where the nerdy guy friend zones his way into dating the cheerleader doesn't really happen.  It's also rare that a female friend will set you up with one of her friends, regardless of how not interested in you she claims to be, from my experience.  If you get a girlfriend, that's one less guy around to provide the self-esteem boost she likes to have.  If you get friend-zoned, move on.  The more time you waste with a girl who doesn't want you, the less time you spend with a girl who might.

Stop trying to be friends.  If you don't establish your intentions early on, you're out of luck.  You need to be in their space, asking for dates, putting on moves, to let the girl know you're interested, before her attentions turn elsewhere.  Of course, no ALWAYS means no, but being a nice guy doesn't have to mean you don't at least try to make a move.  Give her the opportunity to say no or to stop your progress.  This way, she gets to feel sexy and wanted, but at the same time in control.  If you don't try, many women will wonder if you are even attracted to them.

By the way I'm no expert.  I was pretty much a male slut for 12 years before I met my current wife.  I had a lot of one night stands, two week affairs, etc, and never had a relationship more than 10 months until I met my wife.  I thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it, and I think I'm probably a better husband for the experiences.

Quote from: "fester30"First of all, that thing in the movie where the nerdy guy friend zones his way into dating the cheerleader doesn't really happen.  It's also rare that a female friend will set you up with one of her friends, regardless of how not interested in you she claims to be, from my experience.  If you get a girlfriend, that's one less guy around to provide the self-esteem boost she likes to have.  If you get friend-zoned, move on.  The more time you waste with a girl who doesn't want you, the less time you spend with a girl who might.

Stop trying to be friends.  If you don't establish your intentions early on, you're out of luck.  You need to be in their space, asking for dates, putting on moves, to let the girl know you're interested, before her attentions turn elsewhere.  Of course, no ALWAYS means no, but being a nice guy doesn't have to mean you don't at least try to make a move.  Give her the opportunity to say no or to stop your progress.  This way, she gets to feel sexy and wanted, but at the same time in control.  If you don't try, many women will wonder if you are even attracted to them.

By the way I'm no expert.  I was pretty much a male slut for 12 years before I met my current wife.  I had a lot of one night stands, two week affairs, etc, and never had a relationship more than 10 months until I met my wife.  I thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it, and I think I'm probably a better husband for the experiences.

A male slut for 12 years? Can we trade lives please? :)", which is the exact wording from her text.

Quote from: "Godless"A male slut for 12 years? Can we trade lives please? :)", which is the exact wording from her text.

The male slut thing is pretty easy if you don't have any intentions of actually dating someone for more than a couple weeks.  If all you want is some random hookups, and you make it clear that's what you want, you'll find it.

This girl doesn't want a relationship?  PERFECT way to start your male sluttiness (did I just make up a word?).  Tell her you don't want a relationship, either, just some boot-knocking.  Just don't use the word boot-knocking, or you won't get to.  Oh, and definitely don't pay for lunch.

Quote from: "fester30"

Quote from: "Godless"A male slut for 12 years? Can we trade lives please? :)", which is the exact wording from her text.

The male slut thing is pretty easy if you don't have any intentions of actually dating someone for more than a couple weeks.  If all you want is some random hookups, and you make it clear that's what you want, you'll find it.

This girl doesn't want a relationship?  PERFECT way to start your male sluttiness (did I just make up a word?).  Tell her you don't want a relationship, either, just some boot-knocking.  Just don't use the word boot-knocking, or you won't get to.  Oh, and definitely don't pay for lunch.

Well I'm pretty sure she isn't that type of girl. Also, I ALWAYS pay for lunch whenever I'm eating out with a girl.

Quote from: "Godless"Become a selfish asshole?

Well, being one, I do get enough of casual non-binding sex, but if you want something more lasting than that, I wouldn't say that's the way to go.

they cannot help it

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"women like assholes for the same reason you and i don't want BBW's.  We and they cannot help it

Do you think it's some kind of a primal instinct..? Like, the most ruthless, aggressive guy who can still function within a herd is the most likely survivor and therefor has best genes?

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"women like assholes for the same reason you and i don't want BBW's.  We and they cannot help it

No.

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"

Quote from: "Godless"I'll be honest, the dating scene hasn't been going very well for me. Senior year in high school, I asked out the girl I really liked to prom and I wanted to continue seeing her over the summer but after graduation she completely stopped talking to me. Freshman year of college, I tried to hang out/get to know this girl that I sat next to in Resources Geology. I got her number but she didn't seem interested in doing anything. A little later, I found that I kinda liked one of my female friends and I wanted to go out with her but I got friend zoned so hard especially since she told me in a text "You're like the brother I never had!". And a few days ago, I asked this girl out to lunch who I know through one of my friends, but she said she wasn't interested in a relationship (in a text) but I still got lunch with her (which did go well) so that probably won't go anywhere. Is it just me or are many girls not interested in "nice guys" like me? What am I to do? Become a selfish asshole?

Some women like assholes for the same reason [strike:3vpj1sqn]you and[/strike:3vpj1sqn] i don't want BBW's.  [strike:3vpj1sqn]We[/strike:3vpj1sqn] I and [strike:3vpj1sqn]they[/strike:3vpj1sqn] some of them cannot help it

There FIFY
 

 :D

 :D

We don't, we just have to work a little harder to compensate for not seeming dangerous. As much as people don't like to admit it, a lot of women find dangerous men interesting and exciting, despite the fact they're very rarely the type best suited to a long-term relationship.

Eat right and exercise. Physical attraction is where dating starts. Being in good shape makes you attractive in others and helps to boost your self-confidence in a healthy way.

Pursue your interests publicly. If you're a big book hound, join a few book clubs and share your passion with other people. If you're into hiking, join a hiking group. If you're into botany, join a garden club. Go live your life and have fun, develop new friendships and widen your network of real-life friends. If you meet someone in one such group, you already know you have a shared interest.

Please don't become a prick. Pricks do tend to get more women, but their lives are complete shit. I know a few pricks and while there's usually a beautiful woman on their arms, the relationships they have are hollow and meaningless.

Now what could she possibly see in him?

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gstaadlife.com%2Fimages%2F2008%2F02%2F19%2F20080219bernie_and_slavica_ecclesto.jpg&hash=447e780262c325c97f0dae1cc16ed5ca009f0390)

Quote from: "Godless"Also, I ALWAYS pay for lunch whenever I'm eating out with a girl.

This is why women would rather have lunch with you than make rumpy pumpy.

Quote from: "SSY"

Quote from: "Godless"Also, I ALWAYS pay for lunch whenever I'm eating out with a girl.

This is why women would rather have lunch with you than make rumpy pumpy.

So being a gentleman is a bad thing?

I don't think women are necessarily attracted to aggressive or asshole men...I think they are attracted to self-confidence that more often displayed by those peronality types.  Nice guys tend to be shy; a  behavior which does not display self confidence.

Shy guys probably do better with online dating because they can let the woman know how great of a person they are before they get a chance to make a sub par first impression by acting bashful.   Similar option to this that you should also try is to take Will's advice and get active in some clubs.  Even the most shy of us are much more open when we are able to talk about something we really enjoy and feel confident about.  

Also be causal about it.  Never ask for a "date."  Say things like..."Hey, it was great talking to you I'd love to do this again some time.  Would you like to continue this conversation over dinner thursday evening?" after having already had a very nice talk with a girl you are interested in.  If she says no, just say well, some other time maybe and drop it (in most cases an interested female will indicate if she already has plans and suggest another day that works for her).  Then ask again later if she continues to act friendly towards you, never ask more than 3 times as past that it makes you seem creepy.

I think whoever asks the other person out should pay for whatever food or entertainment is planned for the date.  I wouldn't want someone to plan something then make me pay for half without any input on where we ate etc.

However going dutch is not bad...there are good arguments for it (like that there is no reason for the woman to feel obligated to the man just because he paid for dinner and a movie).  But if that is the plan then you should get input from the other party on where you will go and be up front about reasons for going dutch.  Since most women are feminists this should go over well unless they are just using you for a free dinner.

p.s.  paying or not paying for dinner will not affect whether a nice intelligent girl sleeps with you or not.  If the concern is to bag a dumb slut; paying for dinner is your best bet.

Following on from Whitny's. Don't ask "Are you free on Saturday?" ask "When are you next free?". The former gives a get out, the later requires the lady to put her cards on the table by flatly refusing to see you again, or not as the case may be.

There was a discussion on another forum about how to get out of the friend zone. One solution that would be guaranteed to work was suggested. Arrange to get caught having a...  You'll be out of the friend zone, one way or the other!  

Quote from: "Whitney"I don't think women are necessarily attracted to aggressive or asshole men...I think they are attracted to self-confidence that more often displayed by those peronality types.  Nice guys tend to be shy; a  behavior which does not display self confidence.

I don't mean that women are attracted to assholes, but more dangerous men do tend to attract more women. Let me put it this way:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pollsb.com%2Fphotos%2Fo%2F17368-raiders_lost_ark.jpg&hash=eca8be9da33217a4c2d4b5108ae7510cb7ff9d2f)   (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.principalspage.com%2Ftheblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F%2F2008%2F03%2Findiana-jones.jpg&hash=694fbaceb8f493705380b4b368192e812ddd073b)

Indiana Jones on the left is in action mode. He's armed, he's running, he's hijacking trucks, he's fighting Nazis, and he's saving the day. Indiana Jones on the right is a professor of archeology, utterly fascinated by antiquities and history, who does his best to inspire students and share his fascination. Which is more sexy?

I've always felt more comfortable with, and therefore more attracted to, the professor types.  Intelligence is sexy.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.realbollywood.com%2Fnews%2Fup_images%2F11117814jpeg&hash=c9aa2264d4b37d5eee0ff7658fe0803aff07bbab)
^not sexy...yet he is adventurous

I suppose I'm speaking in unscientific generalities.

Quote from: "Whitney"I don't think women are necessarily attracted to aggressive or asshole men...I think they are attracted to self-confidence that more often displayed by those peronality types.  Nice guys tend to be shy; a  behavior which does not display self confidence.

Shy guys probably do better with online dating because they can let the woman know how great of a person they are before they get a chance to make a sub par first impression by acting bashful.   Similar option to this that you should also try is to take Will's advice and get active in some clubs.  Even the most shy of us are much more open when we are able to talk about something we really enjoy and feel confident about.  

Also be causal about it.  Never ask for a "date."  Say things like..."Hey, it was great talking to you I'd love to do this again some time.  Would you like to continue this conversation over dinner thursday evening?" after having already had a very nice talk with a girl you are interested in.  If she says no, just say well, some other time maybe and drop it (in most cases an interested female will indicate if she already has plans and suggest another day that works for her).  Then ask again later if she continues to act friendly towards you, never ask more than 3 times as past that it makes you seem creepy.

I think whoever asks the other person out should pay for whatever food or entertainment is planned for the date.  I wouldn't want someone to plan something then make me pay for half without any input on where we ate etc.

However going dutch is not bad...there are good arguments for it (like that there is no reason for the woman to feel obligated to the man just because he paid for dinner and a movie).  But if that is the plan then you should get input from the other party on where you will go and be up front about reasons for going dutch.  Since most women are feminists this should go over well unless they are just using you for a free dinner.

p.s.  paying or not paying for dinner will not affect whether a nice intelligent girl sleeps with you or not.  If the concern is to bag a dumb slut; paying for dinner is your best bet.

Ehh... I'm highly skeptical about online dating. I kinda feel like it would be a last resort.

But thanks for the advice everyone!

Quote from: "Godless"

Quote from: "Whitney"I don't think women are necessarily attracted to aggressive or asshole men...I think they are attracted to self-confidence that more often displayed by those peronality types.  Nice guys tend to be shy; a  behavior which does not display self confidence.

Shy guys probably do better with online dating because they can let the woman know how great of a person they are before they get a chance to make a sub par first impression by acting bashful.   Similar option to this that you should also try is to take Will's advice and get active in some clubs.  Even the most shy of us are much more open when we are able to talk about something we really enjoy and feel confident about.  

Also be causal about it.  Never ask for a "date."  Say things like..."Hey, it was great talking to you I'd love to do this again some time.  Would you like to continue this conversation over dinner thursday evening?" after having already had a very nice talk with a girl you are interested in.  If she says no, just say well, some other time maybe and drop it (in most cases an interested female will indicate if she already has plans and suggest another day that works for her).  Then ask again later if she continues to act friendly towards you, never ask more than 3 times as past that it makes you seem creepy.

I think whoever asks the other person out should pay for whatever food or entertainment is planned for the date.  I wouldn't want someone to plan something then make me pay for half without any input on where we ate etc.

However going dutch is not bad...there are good arguments for it (like that there is no reason for the woman to feel obligated to the man just because he paid for dinner and a movie).  But if that is the plan then you should get input from the other party on where you will go and be up front about reasons for going dutch.  Since most women are feminists this should go over well unless they are just using you for a free dinner.

p.s.  paying or not paying for dinner will not affect whether a nice intelligent girl sleeps with you or not.  If the concern is to bag a dumb slut; paying for dinner is your best bet.

Ehh... I'm highly skeptical about online dating. I kinda feel like it would be a last resort.

But thanks for the advice everyone!

I'd also be highly skeptical about taking a WOMAN'S advice for how to have luck dating women.  I mean... really?  I think we both know better.

Seriously, though, Whitney makes a point with the internet dating.  I was so used to my short-term dating habits that I had trouble keeping a woman more than two weeks when I was finally ready to settle down.  Turns out it wasn't my ability to keep a woman, it was that I was still going after the same types of women... the ones who just want to have some fun flings.  I didn't know where to find decent women, and even though I was Christian at the time I couldn't stomach church (never did like church).  

I met my wife on the internet.  I was able to talk to and get to know a little bit about some women before dating them.  Sometimes they lie, and when they do you can pick up on it pretty quickly when you meet them.  However, from my experience most of them are pretty honest about who they are, what they like to do, their values, etc.  My wife is the greatest thing ever to happen to me (even though she is a theist).  You might want to give the internet a chance.  Chat rooms are a great place to meet some people.

Quote from: "Godless"

Quote from: "SSY"

Quote from: "Godless"Also, I ALWAYS pay for lunch whenever I'm eating out with a girl.

This is why women would rather have lunch with you than make rumpy pumpy.

So being a gentleman is a bad thing?

If your definition of being a gentlemen includes paying for everything then yes, it's a bad idea. A date is a mutually enjoyable way for two people to spend time together, not the woman doing the man a favour.

I don't know how it works in the states, but over here, whenever I have perused a dating site I normally encounter

QuoteDe5t1Ny-GURLx

i r 22, i luv my friends and my babies and my cats( ND GETTIN SMAHED OV CORS!!!!111).

i dunt wont no pl4y4 so nly msg me if u r nice, but hav a good job and a sick car!! (2008 or later)

*Insert picture of drunk chubby girl, being held up by her friends while staggering on one high heel, flecks of vomit in (dyed) blonde hair*

So far I have not found the precious jewel worthy of my love.

I personally don't bother with relationships or dating.. It's all basically just conditional attraction, and I do not consider conditional attraction "Love", or even a road to love. Humans are not a monogamous species by nature even though such desires to be exist. However, even monogamy is still based purely on conditional attraction. Women are attracted to strong and dangerous men because they exhibit traits that are beneficial to the survivability of the species. A lot of that is natural instinct, just like it will be unlikely normal of any other animal to mate with weak potential mates in their species more than they would with the stronger ones. It's how evolution works, and thus the Assholes are far more likely to successfully mate than the nice guy. I consider myself a nice guy, and I know enough not to bother worrying about it. Though the occasional 1 night stand keeps me happy.  Though it's easier when I have a few beers in me because I tend to get way more bold and confident in my approach to women.  

But at the end the day, or night...They go home, and some go back to their husbands and boyfriends (shit they don't tell you till after the fact).

Never, ever, trust anybody on-line to the point you get seriously emotionally involved with them before you have met them in real life. I have, twice and in both cases it has been an absolute fucking emotional disaster. Some people escape on-line, if you're the escape route be prepared to be completely screwed over. I'm quite an altruistic/mentorish character which makes me vulnerable to people who look like they need help. In real life I am pretty good at telling when I was being taken advantage of. On-line I'm not. Now I am much more circumspect about who I get involved with on-line and to what degree, that is to say I don't! That's not to say that there are not good people on-line, they just seem to be few and far between. I just didn't realise how nasty, mean spirited, selfish and plain horrible some people can be. It's been an unfortunate eye opening experience. In particular be careful of people who are overly friendly, overly fast and perpetually seek compliments. Passive aggressive behaviour is also another warning sign. They can be unstable and emotionally needy individuals.

Quote from: "Tank"Never, ever, trust anybody on-line to the point you get seriously emotionally involved with them before you have met them in real life. I have, twice and in both cases it has been an absolute fucking emotional disaster. Some people escape on-line, if you're the escape route be prepared to be completely screwed over. I'm quite an altruistic/mentorish character which makes me vulnerable to people who look like they need help. In real life I am pretty good at telling when I was being taken advantage of. On-line I'm not. Now I am much more circumspect about who I get involved with on-line and to what degree, that is to say I don't! That's not to say that there are not good people on-line, they just seem to be few and far between. I just didn't realise how nasty, mean spirited, selfish and plain horrible some people can be. It's been an unfortunate eye opening experience. In particular be careful of people who are overly friendly, overly fast and perpetually seek compliments. Passive aggressive behaviour is also another warning sign. They can be unstable and emotionally needy individuals.

Don't get seriously emotionally involved with anyone you meet while drunk in a bar, kneeling in a church, shopping in the supermarket, stopping by the liquor store, eating at the Waffle House, appraising properties in a trailer park, ducking in a storm shelter, dodging bullets in combat, attending a family reunion, hanging out at the zoo after hours, patronizing a house of ill repute or happening upon the shantytown underneath the bridge that is more than 1000 feet from any school.

Quote from: "fester30"

Quote from: "Tank"Never, ever, trust anybody on-line to the point you get seriously emotionally involved with them before you have met them in real life. I have, twice and in both cases it has been an absolute fucking emotional disaster. Some people escape on-line, if you're the escape route be prepared to be completely screwed over. I'm quite an altruistic/mentorish character which makes me vulnerable to people who look like they need help. In real life I am pretty good at telling when I was being taken advantage of. On-line I'm not. Now I am much more circumspect about who I get involved with on-line and to what degree, that is to say I don't! That's not to say that there are not good people on-line, they just seem to be few and far between. I just didn't realise how nasty, mean spirited, selfish and plain horrible some people can be. It's been an unfortunate eye opening experience. In particular be careful of people who are overly friendly, overly fast and perpetually seek compliments. Passive aggressive behaviour is also another warning sign. They can be unstable and emotionally needy individuals.

Don't get seriously emotionally involved with anyone you meet while drunk in a bar, kneeling in a church, shopping in the supermarket, stopping by the liquor store, eating at the Waffle House, appraising properties in a trailer park, ducking in a storm shelter, dodging bullets in combat, attending a family reunion, hanging out at the zoo after hours, patronizing a house of ill repute or happening upon the shantytown underneath the bridge that is more than 1000 feet from any school.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at or that you understood the point I was making, so forgive me if I'm reading this incorrectly. All the situations you describe require direct human interaction, in all its communicative richness. Non-verbal cues, voice intonation, instant non-considered reaction. One of the ways we can tell if people are lying to us is their speed of reaction to a question, slow reactions can be indicative of people having to think up a lie rather than simply recalling a memory. If a person is attempting to make up a story they look up and to the left, it's believed this is caused while they unconsciously access their creative centres. These cues and many others, are not available on-line. People can consider their responses without revealing the 'tells' that others would rely on to assess their honesty. So all the circumstances you have described would contain the 'tells' and thus would be better than an on-line interaction.

In fact I quite like your examples because they do highlight where relationships can be sparked spontaneously. One such happened to me. I was staying away a lot one year in one particular hotel, which can be a little lonely, particularly if one is quite gregarious as I am. Well there was another guest who appeared to be in a similar situation to me. I made eye contact, smiled and later want over to chat and in due course we used to have our meals together and spend some of the evenings chatting.

Now I was careful to say that there are good people on-line, because there are. It's just that so far my on-line propensity to spot then has been about 1:3 so I'm much more careful now than I was and would not entertain an emotional engagement with somebody I had not met face-to-face. That does not mean I would not like somebody on-line for their on-line persona, I'm just much more circumspect about taking people at 'face value' on-line because I haven't seen their face. All I am saying is be circumspect about people who behave on-line in a way that you would not expect in real life. In real life men generally approach women or get to know them in a neutral situation first. If one finds that situation reversed I would now be very suspicious and take things very carefully. I wouldn't dismiss the approach, I'd just be very, very wary of motivations to begin with.

I was just amusing myself with that paragraph of warnings.  However, to your point about delayed responses or looking up and to the left... human beings are very bad at detecting lies and liars.  Even with fancy machines, we aren't very good at it.  We're so bad at it, you're just about as likely to catch someone lying with words on a computer screen as you are with body language, facial movements, and verbal cues.

Quote from: "fester30"I was just amusing myself with that paragraph of warnings.  However, to your point about delayed responses or looking up and to the left... human beings are very bad at detecting lies and liars.  Even with fancy machines, we aren't very good at it.  We're so bad at it, you're just about as likely to catch someone lying with words on a computer screen as you are with body language, facial movements, and verbal cues.

I don't agree. You made a huge generalisation and that always sends off warning bells for me that you have not considered that different people have different abilities to detect liars. Some people will be good at it while some are bad. With decades of personal experience in negotiating situations and studying body language I am pretty damn good at it in real life. Which is why I think I was so naive on-line. I had become used to my own abilities to 'read people'. So please don't make sweeping generalisations as there will almost always (see how I didn't make a generalisation there   ) be an exception to confound the rule.

Quote from: "Tank"I don't agree. You made a huge generalisation and that always sends off warning bells for me that you have not considered that different people have different abilities to detect liars. Some people will be good at it while some are bad. With decades of personal experience in negotiating situations and studying body language I am pretty damn good at it in real life. Which is why I think I was so naive on-line. I had become used to my own abilities to 'read people'. So please don't make sweeping generalisations as there will almost always (see how I didn't make a generalisation there   ) be an exception to confound the rule.

Got me.  I did make a generalization there, didn't I?  Thanks for keeping me honest.  Let's see if I can find a better way to describe my opinion on the issue:

I don't feel that there is really a very sound empiracle method to determining the effectiveness of methods of lie-detection, with the possible exception of those brain scans that show certain parts of the brain lighting up when a memory is triggered, like a photo you show the suspect of the crime scene that only the perpetrator would recognize.  If that part of their brain lights up, then the suspect did see that part of the crime scene.  Even that (I believe it's called the fMRI) is a long way away from being immune to error.

Proponents of polygraphs will point to studies that show they catch more than 90% of liars.  However, according to the U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment (OTA), there is not much evidence for scientific validity for lie detection with polygraphs.  Some studies the OTA cited showed false positives up to 75%.  It was this research that made me feel bad for all those guys that get on the Maury show and the polygraph examiner will say he's lying about whether he had an affair with 14 other women on 13 different occasions.  What if he was really telling the truth, and he just gets really nervous when the question he knows is the money question comes up?  What if the polygraph guy was wrong?  That guy's babymama will never believe him now.

You can say there are tell-tale signals of someone lying, but there may also be some confirmation bias there.  Perhaps you remember more often when you catch people then when you think someone is lying that isn't.  Perhaps it's the sort of people you commonly encounter.  If you are a detective working in a high crime area, it's possible the people you commonly interview are all hiding something, even if it isn't the subject of the line of questioning.  

It's very difficult to develop a controlled experiment testing lie detectors, both human and machine, because it's very difficult to exactly replicate the circumstances under which someone may have a reason to lie.  Someone could tell me to sit in a chair and lie about something, but that may not be the same level of anxiety that I may experience under actual interrogation for an actual crime.  There are also too many people who can beat lie detectors, machine or man.  

Perhaps you have special abilities due to your experience, and if so then that's great for you.  I would need a lot more than your say so before I'd accept your opinion of whether someone is lying in a court of law, however.  Especially when there are polygraph examiners who are very experienced at interrogation and dealing with potential liars, AND they have a machine at their disposal for measuring nervousness that you don't have, and there is no way one can say they will be accurate often enough to be viable for courts.

So guys in college are expected to live the "college experience."  Where they get drunk, party, get arrested, get some action, fail some classes, work crappy summer jobs, barely pass some classes and eventually get enough passing grades to graduate.

Its no different for women these days.  

So maybe the "Im not interested in a 'relationship'" speech is just a heads up from the women they aren't wanting to lead you on into thinking that they want to immediately jump into an exclusive relationship.  This isn't a bad thing and it might not be worth while to jump to the conclusion that the women that you've gone out with don't like you.  Its just that they want to play the field a bit.  Look at it this way, they are being honest with you.  

Why not just take it easy, keep trying to find women that you like and go out on some fun dates.  Have a good time and not worry so much about trying to find an exclusive partner just yet.  

Now bear in mind that I have been with the same woman for eleven or more years now and we "hooked" up back in high school.  So my advice my not be as sagely and experienced as Whitney or Tanker

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"So guys in college are expected to live the "college experience."  Where they get drunk, party, get arrested, get some action, fail some classes, work crappy summer jobs, barely pass some classes and eventually get enough passing grades to graduate.

Its no different for women these days.  

So maybe the "Im not interested in a 'relationship'" speech is just a heads up from the women they aren't wanting to lead you on into thinking that they want to immediately jump into an exclusive relationship.  This isn't a bad thing and it might not be worth while to jump to the conclusion that the women that you've gone out with don't like you.  Its just that they want to play the field a bit.  Look at it this way, they are being honest with you.  

Why not just take it easy, keep trying to find women that you like and go out on some fun dates.  Have a good time and not worry so much about trying to find an exclusive partner just yet.  

Now bear in mind that I have been with the same woman for eleven or more years now and we "hooked" up back in high school.  So my advice my not be as sagely and experienced as Whitney or Tanker

Jolly... you hear the thumping too?  Yes, it often wakes me up when I'm sleeping.  I was taking a nap in my couch two days ago in Gravel Ridge (near Little Rock Air Force Base) when the thumping came to my door dressed as two very conservative Baptists.  I had a really great nap going too.  I didn't end up losing a half hour talking to them, though.  They were the kind who turn white with terror when encountered with an atheist and evacuate the area as quickly as they can.

Quote from: "Tank"Never, ever, trust anybody on-line to the point you get seriously emotionally involved with them before you have met them in real life. I have, twice and in both cases it has been an absolute fucking emotional disaster. Some people escape on-line, if you're the escape route be prepared to be completely screwed over. I'm quite an altruistic/mentorish character which makes me vulnerable to people who look like they need help. In real life I am pretty good at telling when I was being taken advantage of. On-line I'm not. Now I am much more circumspect about who I get involved with on-line and to what degree, that is to say I don't! That's not to say that there are not good people on-line, they just seem to be few and far between. I just didn't realise how nasty, mean spirited, selfish and plain horrible some people can be. It's been an unfortunate eye opening experience. In particular be careful of people who are overly friendly, overly fast and perpetually seek compliments. Passive aggressive behaviour is also another warning sign. They can be unstable and emotionally needy individuals.

Well this post is disturbing, just because some people used you in the past doesn't mean others don't want to help.
To prove this I'm going to offer you the chance to get in on my latest business venture.
Ever get sick of removing and shaking the laser printer cartridge?
Well I've solved this problem with the robotic bouncing printer table.
If your printed page is looking pale just press a button and stand back, this wonderful table will jump up and down, from side to side and even does a somersault.  
I've already had expressions of interest from Dell, Canon, HP and Wallace & Gromit.
So don't delay, if you want to redeem your faith in humanity, make big bucks and attract shallow woman just let me know.

when I suggested online dating I meant a quality site...whatever that may be these days; I've heard ok cupid is good; I think there is also one that only accepts atheists.

Then there are of course the proper precautions that you'd take if set up on a blind date...meet in a public space at least the first time etc.

Mr. Fester I have found that living out in the middle of the woods with a heard of goats goes a long way to creating an uncomfortable environment for "Those That Thump."

I'm sure the albino pitbull charging the front gate doesn't help roll out any welcome mats either.

 

Quote from: "fester30"

Quote from: "Tank"I don't agree. You made a huge generalisation and that always sends off warning bells for me that you have not considered that different people have different abilities to detect liars. Some people will be good at it while some are bad. With decades of personal experience in negotiating situations and studying body language I am pretty damn good at it in real life. Which is why I think I was so naive on-line. I had become used to my own abilities to 'read people'. So please don't make sweeping generalisations as there will almost always (see how I didn't make a generalisation there   ) be an exception to confound the rule.

Got me.  I did make a generalization there, didn't I?  Thanks for keeping me honest.  Let's see if I can find a better way to describe my opinion on the issue:

I don't feel that there is really a very sound empiracle method to determining the effectiveness of methods of lie-detection, with the possible exception of those brain scans that show certain parts of the brain lighting up when a memory is triggered, like a photo you show the suspect of the crime scene that only the perpetrator would recognize.  If that part of their brain lights up, then the suspect did see that part of the crime scene.  Even that (I believe it's called the fMRI) is a long way away from being immune to error.

Proponents of polygraphs will point to studies that show they catch more than 90% of liars.  However, according to the U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment (OTA), there is not much evidence for scientific validity for lie detection with polygraphs.  Some studies the OTA cited showed false positives up to 75%.  It was this research that made me feel bad for all those guys that get on the Maury show and the polygraph examiner will say he's lying about whether he had an affair with 14 other women on 13 different occasions.  What if he was really telling the truth, and he just gets really nervous when the question he knows is the money question comes up?  What if the polygraph guy was wrong?  That guy's babymama will never believe him now.

You can say there are tell-tale signals of someone lying, but there may also be some confirmation bias there.  Perhaps you remember more often when you catch people then when you think someone is lying that isn't.  Perhaps it's the sort of people you commonly encounter.  If you are a detective working in a high crime area, it's possible the people you commonly interview are all hiding something, even if it isn't the subject of the line of questioning.  

It's very difficult to develop a controlled experiment testing lie detectors, both human and machine, because it's very difficult to exactly replicate the circumstances under which someone may have a reason to lie.  Someone could tell me to sit in a chair and lie about something, but that may not be the same level of anxiety that I may experience under actual interrogation for an actual crime.  There are also too many people who can beat lie detectors, machine or man.  

Perhaps you have special abilities due to your experience, and if so then that's great for you.  I would need a lot more than your say so before I'd accept your opinion of whether someone is lying in a court of law, however.  Especially when there are polygraph examiners who are very experienced at interrogation and dealing with potential liars, AND they have a machine at their disposal for measuring nervousness that you don't have, and there is no way one can say they will be accurate often enough to be viable for courts.

I pretty much agree with all of this. In real life I'm generally good at spotting dishonesty, but not perfect by any means! I did spend 8 years as a product manager at a company where I was perpetually bombarded by people trying to sell me products to put in our catalogue. Prior to that I had spent 4 years in sales on the other side of the table. Yes there would be elements of confirmation bias, but knowing about that issue allows one to guard against it most of the time. In addition recognising that somebody is dishonest isn't necessarily something you can see quickly, and you have to be with them for a while sometimes. I wouldn't say I have special abilities. What I do have is a good memory for trivial stuff, it's often errors in trivial recall that will reveal the fantasist. They'll have a good strong central story that they'll have down pat, but they'll forget the little stuff around the edges and that is one of the things that gives them away. It's not a science as much as an art or as you say simply being exposed to a lot of people who want to put a positive spin on what they say make one good at spotting the spin.

Of course the other issue is when one does not want to admit that one know one's being suckered because one wants to be in the situation one is in, however much one knows that it's probably bull shit. But that's another story, and that is the most dangerous issue.

The point you raise about lie detectors has another aspect. Scientists have been intimidated into not publishing research about the poor effectiveness of lie detectors. The manufacturers of lie detectors have threatened to sue the scientists.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "Tank"Never, ever, trust anybody on-line to the point you get seriously emotionally involved with them before you have met them in real life. I have, twice and in both cases it has been an absolute fucking emotional disaster. Some people escape on-line, if you're the escape route be prepared to be completely screwed over. I'm quite an altruistic/mentorish character which makes me vulnerable to people who look like they need help. In real life I am pretty good at telling when I was being taken advantage of. On-line I'm not. Now I am much more circumspect about who I get involved with on-line and to what degree, that is to say I don't! That's not to say that there are not good people on-line, they just seem to be few and far between. I just didn't realise how nasty, mean spirited, selfish and plain horrible some people can be. It's been an unfortunate eye opening experience. In particular be careful of people who are overly friendly, overly fast and perpetually seek compliments. Passive aggressive behaviour is also another warning sign. They can be unstable and emotionally needy individuals.

Well this post is disturbing, just because some people used you in the past doesn't mean others don't want to help.
To prove this I'm going to offer you the chance to get in on my latest business venture.
Ever get sick of removing and shaking the laser printer cartridge?
Well I've solved this problem with the robotic bouncing printer table.
If your printed page is looking pale just press a button and stand back, this wonderful table will jump up and down, from side to side and even does a somersault.  
I've already had expressions of interest from Dell, Canon, HP and Wallace & Gromit.
So don't delay, if you want to redeem your faith in humanity, make big bucks and attract shallow woman just let me know.

 very good!

Quote from: "Tank"I pretty much agree with all of this. In real life I'm generally good at spotting dishonesty, but not perfect by any means! I did spend 8 years as a product manager at a company where I was perpetually bombarded by people trying to sell me products to put in our catalogue. Prior to that I had spent 4 years in sales on the other side of the table. Yes there would be elements of confirmation bias, but knowing about that issue allows one to guard against it most of the time. In addition recognising that somebody is dishonest isn't necessarily something you can see quickly, and you have to be with them for a while sometimes. I wouldn't say I have special abilities. What I do have is a good memory for trivial stuff, it's often errors in trivial recall that will reveal the fantasist. They'll have a good strong central story that they'll have down pat, but they'll forget the little stuff around the edges and that is one of the things that gives them away. It's not a science as much as an art or as you say simply being exposed to a lot of people who want to put a positive spin on what they say make one good at spotting the spin.

Of course the other issue is when one does not want to admit that one know one's being suckered because one wants to be in the situation one is in, however much one knows that it's probably bull shit. But that's another story, and that is the most dangerous issue.

The point you raise about lie detectors has another aspect. Scientists have been intimidated into not publishing research about the poor effectiveness of lie detectors. The manufacturers of lie detectors have threatened to sue the scientists.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment released a study on the polygraph back in 1983, conducted by scientists hired by the OTA, that showed the unreliability of polygraphs.  This doesn't stop certain government agencies like the FBI from using the machines.  Maybe they have more awesome machines now, but they're still attempting to measure nervousness.

I do get what you're saying, that there will always be certain types that lies seem like they're just written all over their face, especially after enough exposure to catch stories that don't match up.  It's why they tell us (I'm military) that if ever captured and interrogated, I should use half-truths, not all-out lies.  Half truths are easier to remember to keep the story consistent.  

Now to tie all of this tangent back to the original post (nice guys finishing last):
A study in Social Psychological and Personality Science showed that people who are more apt to trust others make the best lie detectors, ironically enough.

N.L. Carter, J. Mark Weber.  Not Pollyannas: Higher Generalized Trust Predicts Lie Detection Ability.  Social Psychological and Personality Science, 2010; 1(3): 274

Scientific Validity of Polygraph Testing: A Research Review and Evaluation.  U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment.  November, 1983.

"Nice" guys usually are assholes, especially if they are trying to be nice guys. Be honest with yourself  about who and what you are and you will be much more capable of finding what you Need as opposed to what you want. If its simply desire then "nice" has bugger all to do with it.

If you are funny, have the looks, have the money, and have a big penis... You are golden to have women all over you like white on rice.. Have none of those, and you are surely to be a social outcast. Those are the fundamental things women first look for. Regardless, it isn't love, it purely 100% conditional attraction at first, and love might sneak in later if you are lucky.. People don't date other people without first prejudging them..If you pass the judging process and continue to meet those expectations that must be filled, you will do just fine.  :P

I was listening to something the other day about attraction in females.

If the female is ovulating she is more likely to be attracted to the strong, self confident manly man types (and this is the time they are most likely to cheat too).  But, for the rest of the month she is more likely to be attracted to the soft, friendly fatherly type.  AND...birth control pills can mess with what type of guy a woman will be attracted to.

So, women who want their relationships to last should go for a guy that is strong yet sensual, confident yet caring, and manly yet takes pride in caring for his children.  And I think most women would describe such a guy as their ideal mate....no one wants an asshole or a guy that is so nice that he must be hiding something.

 :D

I have to disagree with Joe and Jackel. I realize that you're speaking in generalizations... and that in general I'm sure those things are mostly true. As a woman I will address each claim starting with funny...
1. funny- for me, funny is the most important desired trait listed. I'm a little too serious and introverted by nature so I appreciate someone who can make me laugh. I don't think that douchebaggery is okay, but being funny (to me any way) is linked to that whole confidence thing.
2. have the looks- while a physical attraction is very important I definitely don't use that as a determining factor for pursuing someone in a romantic way. This is partly because men who are "super hot" tend to be assholes. I realize that (sadly) most women are attracted to assholes. I'm not. I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that I link "the looks" with douchebag frat guys (a generalization on my part but hey, we all have our faults).
3. have the money- I don't think any one is okay with dating a street urchin, but (and maybe I'm insane) "money can't buy me love." Now there is a huge difference between financial stability and "having money." I think that has more to do with a representation of someone's ability to act like an adult. Granted, we're in the middle of a pretty epic recession so I'm sure that financial stability is becoming more and more of a difficult thing to maintain. I don't think that most guys want a girl who is broke either (unless they're looking for someone to stay at home). I could go on about this one.
4. have a big penis- just speaking from personal experience... size does not always equal skill.

I have to disagree with Joe and Jackel. I realize that you're speaking in generalizations... and that in general I'm sure those things are mostly true. As a woman I will address each claim starting with funny...
1. funny- for me, funny is the most important desired trait listed. I'm a little too serious and introverted by nature so I appreciate someone who can make me laugh. I don't think that douchebaggery is okay, but being funny (to me any way) is linked to that whole confidence thing.
2. have the looks- while a physical attraction is very important I definitely don't use that as a determining factor for pursuing someone in a romantic way. This is partly because men who are "super hot" tend to be assholes. I realize that (sadly) most women are attracted to assholes. I'm not. I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that I link "the looks" with douchebag frat guys (a generalization on my part but hey, we all have our faults).
3. have the money- I don't think any one is okay with dating a street urchin, but (and maybe I'm insane) "money can't buy me love." Now there is a huge difference between financial stability and "having money." I think that has more to do with a representation of someone's ability to act like an adult. Granted, we're in the middle of a pretty epic recession so I'm sure that financial stability is becoming more and more of a difficult thing to maintain. I don't think that most guys want a girl who is broke either (unless they're looking for someone to stay at home). I could go on about this one.
4. have a big penis- just speaking from personal experience... size does not always equal skill.

Quote from: "YaarghMatey487"I have to disagree with Joe and Jackel. I realize that you're speaking in generalizations... and that in general I'm sure those things are mostly true. As a woman I will address each claim starting with funny...
1. funny- for me, funny is the most important desired trait listed. I'm a little too serious and introverted by nature so I appreciate someone who can make me laugh. I don't think that douchebaggery is okay, but being funny (to me any way) is linked to that whole confidence thing.
2. have the looks- while a physical attraction is very important I definitely don't use that as a determining factor for pursuing someone in a romantic way. This is partly because men who are "super hot" tend to be assholes. I realize that (sadly) most women are attracted to assholes. I'm not. I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that I link "the looks" with douchebag frat guys (a generalization on my part but hey, we all have our faults).
3. have the money- I don't think any one is okay with dating a street urchin, but (and maybe I'm insane) "money can't buy me love." Now there is a huge difference between financial stability and "having money." I think that has more to do with a representation of someone's ability to act like an adult. Granted, we're in the middle of a pretty epic recession so I'm sure that financial stability is becoming more and more of a difficult thing to maintain. I don't think that most guys want a girl who is broke either (unless they're looking for someone to stay at home). I could go on about this one.
4. have a big penis- just speaking from personal experience... size does not always equal skill.

100% agree with this post.

[ :)

Lol Joe. Keep in mind I'm using myself as an example...maybe not the best point of reference? In all seriousness though, one of the best boyfriends I ever had was not that much of a looker. He was intelligent, articulate, funny, cultured and wowza in the bedroom though. *shrug* I realize that most people (in general) depend on looks. Having grown up as a shy awkward nerdy kid I can't help but try to dig a little deeper.

I hear women all the time talking about how the most important thing is sense of humor.  I did stand-up a couple times in college, and I was good enough to make everybody laugh.  There were always a couple of tables of single women in the place on a night out.  Not one did I get hit on or was I successful asking for a date after the show ;P

Quote from: "YaarghMatey487"Lol Joe. Keep in mind I'm using myself as an example...maybe not the best point of reference? In all seriousness though, one of the best boyfriends I ever had was not that much of a looker. He was intelligent, articulate, funny, cultured and wowza in the bedroom though. *shrug* I realize that most people (in general) depend on looks. Having grown up as a shy awkward nerdy kid I can't help but try to dig a little deeper.

Those are still points of conditional attraction.. They have to meet what-ever it is that you will find attractive. It's just the simple nature of it. Love is like a logical fallacy, and all it really is, is two mates mutually attracted. It's not like a mothers love for their child..Though in some rare cases it can grow into something that bonding.. Both have had to meet each others expectations at least on a level above the lowest acceptable level. I think most guys become assholes after they figure that all out.. Women typically want a man that poses a challenge.. And you also speak in past tense of this gentleman.. It shows why the human species is not a monogamous species ..

@Godless, and without meaning to sound unkind, you're not getting screwed over. That would suggest you're owed something, when you're not.

Also, women don't mostly favour arseholes. You're blaming them for your problems. In reality, if your being nice has an ulterior motive - ie. making them feel indebted to you - then they're going to see through that very easily. In such a case, you're probably coming across as imposing and slightly creepy more than "nice." Just a possibility that you might want to consider.

And by the way...

Quote from: "TheJackel"If you are funny, have the looks, have the money, and have a big penis... You are golden to have women all over you like white on rice.. Have none of those, and you are surely to be a social outcast. Those are the fundamental things women first look for. Regardless, it isn't love, it purely 100% conditional attraction at first, and love might sneak in later if you are lucky.. People don't date other people without first prejudging them..If you pass the judging process and continue to meet those expectations that must be filled, you will do just fine. lol

Still    Women tend to find attractive people attractive -> attractive people are assholes -> women tend to find assholes attractive. I'm not really sure about this.

I had a coworker who was overweight.  He used to get upset because beautiful model-looking women wouldn't give him the time of day or date him.  He called them shallow bitches.  One day, I got tired of hearing his complaining, so I told him that perhaps he's the one who is being shallow.  He couldn't believe I called him shallow.  I asked him how many fat or even plain looking women he had dated or even asked on a date in the last year.  He said one or two.  I pointed out he had asked out or attempted to flirt with dozens of good looking women during that time.  He mentioned that at least he tried dating one or two ugly women.  I told him that was like a John Gibson (Fox radio) saying he's not a racist and for proof pointing out he's got a couple black friends.  That just doesn't hold water, especially since he called them ugly women.  I told him that maybe before he judges these beautiful women as being shallow because they won't date him, perhaps he should look in the mirror and realize he wouldn't date a woman that had the same body type as he did.  He either needs to lose weight or lower his standards.

I'm not saying the originator of this post is ugly.  What I am saying is that whoever in this thread is labeling all the good-looking athlete types  "assholes" perhaps should take a step back and realize they can't all be.  I used to get suckered by the sob story of the female that seems to have the bad luck of dating nothing but assholes.  Then I married a woman who fed me that sob story to say she just had bad luck in finding husbands... 5 of them.  We're divorced now.  She's working on divorce number 7 already, and I'm happily married to wife number 2.  Sometimes it's not the guys that are the assholes, but instead it's the woman telling you the one-sided story of how the relationship went bad.

It's my 31st wedding anniversary today, so I must be doing something right  

@fester- I 100% agree with you. I admit to my own personal hang ups assuming that alpha males are all assholes. I already admitted that I was making a generalization about a generalization (like so many other people have been doing about women). I still argue that "attractive" and "attraction" are not synonymous. I think that people add way too much extra baggage to relationships. We're conditioned to think that a relationship means x+y+z= and that is definitely not always the case. In the end, I think it's important that people do what's right for them. Poo on societal conditioning. What I'm trying to get at (and am obviously failing to communicate) is that not everyone uses the alpha male is a stereotype for a happy relationship.

Quote from: "fester30"I hear women all the time talking about how the most important thing is sense of humor.  I did stand-up a couple times in college, and I was good enough to make everybody laugh.  There were always a couple of tables of single women in the place on a night out.  Not one did I get hit on or was I successful asking for a date after the show ;P

I don't think a great sense of humor is important...just don't care for stick in the mud types.  

I have never seen a comedian and thought "wow, that guy is so funny...how hot is that!"

Quote from: "Tank"It's my 31st wedding anniversary today, so I must be doing something right  :party:  :party:

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "Tank"It's my 31st wedding anniversary today, so I must be doing something right  :party:  :party:

Cheers mate  

Quote from: "Tank"It's my 31st wedding anniversary today, so I must be doing something right  lol.

Quote from: "fester30"

Quote from: "Tank"It's my 31st wedding anniversary today, so I must be doing something right  lol.

Thanks  

I'm sure I read somewhere that one of the highest divorce rates is in born again christians.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "fester30"

Quote from: "Tank"It's my 31st wedding anniversary today, so I must be doing something right  lol.

Thanks  

I'm sure I read somewhere that one of the highest divorce rates is in born again christians.

If my partner went crazy like that, they would be out the door pronto (interestingly, this makes me as intolerant as fundamental Christians seem to be, maybe I should re-consider my stance).

Quote from: "Tank"It's my 31st wedding anniversary today, so I must be doing something right  

A little late, but congrats Tank!

Quote from: "Cecilie"

Quote from: "Tank"It's my 31st wedding anniversary today, so I must be doing something right  :D

Well, scientifically they are going to chose mates that are still alpha males based on generally testosterone, muscles and social dominance. Nice is nice, but if it aint in the top 3, you don't qualify.

2nd by being the "nice guy" you instantly identify yourself with the nice guy who won't cheat and will treat me great. Well, the alpha male of course cheats, he is dominant and can and even though society and upbringing says, you are it, all of her desire will be to pick the alphamale.

The trick here is society has turned our dating/mating selections on their heads and you are getting the brunt of it because you are playing by the rules. Do not play by the rules. Go date a 40 something hotties who has just gotten her kids out of the house...trust me, they are great. No expectations, they don't want kids, they just want to be treated well and to get some attention when they need it, not smothered. Do this for 5-7 years and by the time you are 25-27, all those girls will be trying to find a guy without kids that has a decent job and maybe wants a family. Then all of a sudden, your nice guy stable life trumps Mr Musclehead who by now isn't playing football and is flabby has 3 illegitamate kids to pay for and has to live with his mom to do it. Now, you win and can pick whoever you want.

Quote from: darkcyd on May 31, 2011, 04:40:50 PM
Well, scientifically they are going to chose mates that are still alpha males based on generally testosterone, muscles and social dominance. Nice is nice, but if it aint in the top 3, you don't qualify.

2nd by being the "nice guy" you instantly identify yourself with the nice guy who won't cheat and will treat me great. Well, the alpha male of course cheats, he is dominant and can and even though society and upbringing says, you are it, all of her desire will be to pick the alphamale.

The trick here is society has turned our dating/mating selections on their heads and you are getting the brunt of it because you are playing by the rules. Do not play by the rules. Go date a 40 something hotties who has just gotten her kids out of the house...trust me, they are great. No expectations, they don't want kids, they just want to be treated well and to get some attention when they need it, not smothered. Do this for 5-7 years and by the time you are 25-27, all those girls will be trying to find a guy without kids that has a decent job and maybe wants a family. Then all of a sudden, your nice guy stable life trumps Mr Musclehead who by now isn't playing football and is flabby has 3 illegitamate kids to pay for and has to live with his mom to do it. Now, you win and can pick whoever you want.

Hey, that's what my hubby did.  He met me when he was 26, dumped his 40 year old girlfriend and (4 years later) married me.

Quote from: Willow on May 31, 2011, 09:58:59 PM

Quote from: darkcyd on May 31, 2011, 04:40:50 PM
Well, scientifically they are going to chose mates that are still alpha males based on generally testosterone, muscles and social dominance. Nice is nice, but if it aint in the top 3, you don't qualify.

2nd by being the "nice guy" you instantly identify yourself with the nice guy who won't cheat and will treat me great. Well, the alpha male of course cheats, he is dominant and can and even though society and upbringing says, you are it, all of her desire will be to pick the alphamale.

The trick here is society has turned our dating/mating selections on their heads and you are getting the brunt of it because you are playing by the rules. Do not play by the rules. Go date a 40 something hotties who has just gotten her kids out of the house...trust me, they are great. No expectations, they don't want kids, they just want to be treated well and to get some attention when they need it, not smothered. Do this for 5-7 years and by the time you are 25-27, all those girls will be trying to find a guy without kids that has a decent job and maybe wants a family. Then all of a sudden, your nice guy stable life trumps Mr Musclehead who by now isn't playing football and is flabby has 3 illegitamate kids to pay for and has to live with his mom to do it. Now, you win and can pick whoever you want.

Hey, that's what my hubby did.  He met me when he was 26, dumped his 40 year old girlfriend and (4 years later) married me.

I'll bet he is a nice smart guy too with a decent job and no kids prior to you. Smart man, smart man

Quote from: darkcyd on May 31, 2011, 04:40:50 PM
Well, scientifically they are going to chose mates that are still alpha males based on generally testosterone, muscles and social dominance. Nice is nice, but if it aint in the top 3, you don't qualify.

2nd by being the "nice guy" you instantly identify yourself with the nice guy who won't cheat and will treat me great. Well, the alpha male of course cheats, he is dominant and can and even though society and upbringing says, you are it, all of her desire will be to pick the alphamale.

The trick here is society has turned our dating/mating selections on their heads and you are getting the brunt of it because you are playing by the rules. Do not play by the rules. Go date a 40 something hotties who has just gotten her kids out of the house...trust me, they are great. No expectations, they don't want kids, they just want to be treated well and to get some attention when they need it, not smothered. Do this for 5-7 years and by the time you are 25-27, all those girls will be trying to find a guy without kids that has a decent job and maybe wants a family. Then all of a sudden, your nice guy stable life trumps Mr Musclehead who by now isn't playing football and is flabby has 3 illegitamate kids to pay for and has to live with his mom to do it. Now, you win and can pick whoever you want.

So you're telling me to date someone who is double/more than double my age? Uhh... I don't really have a thing for older women. Especially when they're old enough to be my mother.

Quote from: Godless on March 11, 2011, 07:46:20 PM
I'll be honest, the dating scene hasn't been going very well for me. Senior year in high school, I asked out the girl I really liked to prom and I wanted to continue seeing her over the summer but after graduation she completely stopped talking to me. Freshman year of college, I tried to hang out/get to know this girl that I sat next to in Resources Geology. I got her number but she didn't seem interested in doing anything. A little later, I found that I kinda liked one of my female friends and I wanted to go out with her but I got friend zoned so hard especially since she told me in a text "You're like the brother I never had!". And a few days ago, I asked this girl out to lunch who I know through one of my friends, but she said she wasn't interested in a relationship (in a text) but I still got lunch with her (which did go well) so that probably won't go anywhere. Is it just me or are many girls not interested in "nice guys" like me? What am I to do? Become a selfish asshole?

Bumping old stuff working on my 50.

Younger, the bad boys were more appealing. There were few that were nice and started off a friends. Now, as a women, that would be what I look for if I were single again. Maybe it comes with age or maturity. My husband is an asshole, and he annoys the piss out of me now. (So effin hot at first, but turned to a serious NOT as the years go by!)

Quote from: Shy on June 15, 2011, 05:05:51 AM
Bumping old stuff working on my 50.

[...]

My husband is an asshole, and he annoys the piss out of me now. (So effin hot at first, but turned to a serious NOT as the years go by!)

I wonder what internet forum(s) your husband participates on.

Quote from: original_gender on June 15, 2011, 03:22:17 PM

Quote from: Shy on June 15, 2011, 05:05:51 AM
Bumping old stuff working on my 50.

[...]

My husband is an asshole, and he annoys the piss out of me now. (So effin hot at first, but turned to a serious NOT as the years go by!)

I wonder what internet forum(s) your husband participates on.

None, he does not care to spend time typing and reading to/from people. Only interest are baseball and porn. He knows why I get pissed at him, and I know why he gets pissed at me. We sure don't keep it to ourselves, sugar coating, playing roles of a perfect marriage that may not even exist. If circumstances were different we might not of even choose to be with each other, and yes him and I agree on that fact, but we do care deeply about one another and comfortable in the life we have together. And after 11 years of marriage and 13 of being together I have earned the right to say, my husband is an asshole that pisses me off sometimes.

BUT...I was mainly trying to tell the person who started the thread about the good guy, bad guy from a female stand point and using my own situation as an example without boring everyone with the details. Could have left the last sentence out, but in my buzzed state of mind, it seemed like a good idea at the time. *D'OH*

Quote from: Shy on June 16, 2011, 08:55:39 PM

Quote from: original_gender on June 15, 2011, 03:22:17 PM

Quote from: Shy on June 15, 2011, 05:05:51 AM
Bumping old stuff working on my 50.

[...]

My husband is an asshole, and he annoys the piss out of me now. (So effin hot at first, but turned to a serious NOT as the years go by!)

I wonder what internet forum(s) your husband participates on.

None, he does not care to spend time typing and reading to/from people. Only interest are baseball and porn. He knows why I get pissed at him, and I know why he gets pissed at me. We sure don't keep it to ourselves, sugar coating, playing roles of a perfect marriage that may not even exist. If circumstances were different we might not of even choose to be with each other, and yes him and I agree on that fact, but we do care deeply about one another and comfortable in the life we have together. And after 11 years of marriage and 13 of being together I have earned the right to say, my husband is an asshole that pisses me off sometimes.

BUT...I was mainly trying to tell the person who started the thread about the good guy, bad guy from a female stand point and using my own situation as an example without boring everyone with the details. Could have left the last sentence out, but in my buzzed state of mind, it seemed like a good idea at the time. *D'OH*

I think your honesty in your relationship does you credit.

It's the only way not to become a homicidal maniac.  :o

Seriously though, it's been awhile since I've been on any internet forums. Have only used the internet for college the past couple years, so a reminder to self of how things come out without a tone a voice, body language, etc.

Got my first foot in mouth over with pretty quickly. The second is creeping around here like a ninja. 

Quote from: Shy on June 16, 2011, 08:55:39 PM
None, he does not care to spend time typing and reading to/from people. Only interest are baseball and porn. He knows why I get pissed at him, and I know why he gets pissed at me. We sure don't keep it to ourselves, sugar coating, playing roles of a perfect marriage that may not even exist. If circumstances were different we might not of even choose to be with each other, and yes him and I agree on that fact, but we do care deeply about one another and comfortable in the life we have together. And after 11 years of marriage and 13 of being together I have earned the right to say, my husband is an asshole that pisses me off sometimes.

BUT...I was mainly trying to tell the person who started the thread about the good guy, bad guy from a female stand point and using my own situation as an example without boring everyone with the details. Could have left the last sentence out, but in my buzzed state of mind, it seemed like a good idea at the time. *D'OH*

Oh, it wasn't my intent to be critical. That sentence just sounded a bit like a marital death sigh, but now that you've explained the situation it has given me some idea of your context. I just thought the prospect of a husband and wife venting on two different forums on the same internet was sort of an interesting idea, lol.

Quote from: original_gender on June 16, 2011, 09:26:02 PM

Quote from: Shy on June 16, 2011, 08:55:39 PM
None, he does not care to spend time typing and reading to/from people. Only interest are baseball and porn. He knows why I get pissed at him, and I know why he gets pissed at me. We sure don't keep it to ourselves, sugar coating, playing roles of a perfect marriage that may not even exist. If circumstances were different we might not of even choose to be with each other, and yes him and I agree on that fact, but we do care deeply about one another and comfortable in the life we have together. And after 11 years of marriage and 13 of being together I have earned the right to say, my husband is an asshole that pisses me off sometimes.

BUT...I was mainly trying to tell the person who started the thread about the good guy, bad guy from a female stand point and using my own situation as an example without boring everyone with the details. Could have left the last sentence out, but in my buzzed state of mind, it seemed like a good idea at the time. *D'OH*

Oh, it wasn't my intent to be critical. That sentence just sounded a bit like a marital death sigh, but now that you've explained the situation it has given me some idea of your context. I just thought the prospect of a husband and wife venting on two different forums on the same internet was sort of an interesting idea, lol.

A husband and wife venting on two different forums, and being consoled on those forums, but then it happens to be the same forum and they are consoling each other!

Wow, think I just had an idea for a movie. Chick Flick of course.

Quote from: Shy on June 16, 2011, 09:15:12 PM
It's the only way not to become a homicidal maniac.  :o

Seriously though, it's been awhile since I've been on any internet forums. Have only used the internet for college the past couple years, so a reminder to self of how things come out without a tone a voice, body language, etc.

Got my first foot in mouth over with pretty quickly. The second is creeping around here like a ninja. 

Ah! Foot in mouth syndrome! I know it all too well  :-X
As you say the lack of peripheral communication on forums is the real downside to the medium.

Gonna bump this thread so I can do an update. The girl that said she wasn't interested in a relationship lives with two of my good guy friends this year and I hang out with them a lot so I see her about every week. People tell me I shouldn't be too hung over one girl, but it's so tempting since I see her kind of often. I sometimes go to parties with her and whenever she dresses up to go out she just looks so sexy. It's really hard for me not to think about this a lot and it's starting to bother me more. I have no idea what to do right now.

If you keep seeing her at mutual parties, that's a pretty good opportunity to talk to her. I don't think you need to do anything extreme, just try and get to know her. See if she seems interested.

I also agree with the "don't become a prick" argument. I was one of those women who thought jerks were "interesting" for a time, but, for most of us, the fascination is short-lived.

When I met my husband he was heavy into Pokemon (still is) and had Transformers posters all over his walls. Quiet, geeky, nice guys find women, too :)

Well I do talk to her a little when I'm over at their apartment. Whenever I'm at parties with her I don't want her to feel like I'm just following her around so I just go do my own thing sometimes. I did try to hang out with her this past summer, but whenever I texted her to do something she always seemed to have an excuse. I don't know if she was just making things up just to not go or if she was actually that busy. I'm not sure if I should keep trying to get her to hang out. I know she loves snowboarding and I was thinking about trying to get her to go with me. However, I don't know if I want to spend hundreds of dollars on snowboarding gear just to try to hang out with her.

I think you should just be direct and tell her that you think you have a small (you can understate it) crush on her and that it would be a privaledge to take her to dinner (or whatever activity you want) to get to know each other better.  If she says no then there are more fish in the sea; you don't want to keep silently chasing after a girl that might not be interested.

If I do that and she says no then it's gonna be awkward whenever I'm at my friends' apartment and she's there. I did take her out to lunch back in March, which was when she said she wasn't interested in a relationship.

Quote from: Godless on March 11, 2011, 07:46:20 PM
I'll be honest, the dating scene hasn't been going very well for me. Senior year in high school, I asked out the girl I really liked to prom and I wanted to continue seeing her over the summer but after graduation she completely stopped talking to me. Freshman year of college, I tried to hang out/get to know this girl that I sat next to in Resources Geology. I got her number but she didn't seem interested in doing anything. A little later, I found that I kinda liked one of my female friends and I wanted to go out with her but I got friend zoned so hard especially since she told me in a text "You're like the brother I never had!". And a few days ago, I asked this girl out to lunch who I know through one of my friends, but she said she wasn't interested in a relationship (in a text) but I still got lunch with her (which did go well) so that probably won't go anywhere. Is it just me or are many girls not interested in "nice guys" like me? What am I to do? Become a selfish asshole?

For me, it only seems this way.  Suffering always leads to reward.  I can demonstrate this.  If a person smokes, they get cancer.  This is taking reward first and creating a debt.  The debt is paid by the result.  If a person works toward an education by suffering the time and output of the mind, reward follows.  Nice guys are normally the ones working toward the reward, while the not so nice guys are stealing the reward that eventually ends in suffering.  Hold your head up.  Nice guys are the ones who get the reward in the end.  POST 5

Quote from: Godless on September 26, 2011, 01:17:13 AM
If I do that and she says no then it's gonna be awkward whenever I'm at my friends' apartment and she's there. I did take her out to lunch back in March, which was when she said she wasn't interested in a relationship.

Then you either need to risk it being awkward or give up on her for now.  Personally I'd risk the awkwardness if I liked someone that much.  It's not like you were dating one of the roomates then realized you'd rather be dating one of the other roommates (and even that situation can be taken on without awkwardness if everyone is mature...I've done it; how I started seeing my husband).

I dated one of my best friends for over a year - we had a lot of other mutual friends, so it definitely could have been awkward when it ended, but it wasn't.

I agree with Whitney, I think you just have to go for it. At least then, you'll know :)

Alright well I'm gonna do it then. I just need to figure out specifically what to say and I also need to find the perfect time. Wish me luck!

Quote from: Godless on September 26, 2011, 04:12:53 AM
Alright well I'm gonna do it then. I just need to figure out specifically what to say and I also need to find the perfect time. Wish me luck!

Good luck!  ;D

Do you guys think I should just say "I like you" or should I phrase it differently?

Quote from: Godless on September 26, 2011, 05:04:03 AM
Do you guys think I should just say "I like you" or should I phrase it differently?

I'd probably word it more in the terms of "I have a bit of a crush on you". With the "I like you", you could run the risk of her misunderstanding exactly what you mean by "like" :) (Unless you want to do a lot of winking and finger quotes, but that might not be as smooth.)

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on September 26, 2011, 05:15:02 AM

Quote from: Godless on September 26, 2011, 05:04:03 AM
Do you guys think I should just say "I like you" or should I phrase it differently?

I'd probably word it more in the terms of "I have a bit of a crush on you". With the "I like you", you could run the risk of her misunderstanding exactly what you mean by "like" :) (Unless you want to do a lot of winking and finger quotes, but that might not be as smooth.)

Top notch advice. 'Like' is ambiguios and for all you know she's going through the same feelings towards you as you are to her and 'like' could be taken as putting her in the dreaded 'friend zone'! You need to be honest, but not pushy, lay your cards on the table and if she is interested she'll pick them up. Also don't be put off with an initial 'I'm not interested.' as that can be an initial defence reaction to a surprise. You can always raise the subject later if her behaviour gives the lie to what she has said.

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on September 26, 2011, 05:15:02 AM
I'd probably word it more in the terms of "I have a bit of a crush on you". With the "I like you",

I like this a lot better too; it just sounds more put together and is more direct.

The perfect time is anytime you both have relative privacy...like at one of those parties where you say you both go to (parties are loud so you can speak privately even around other people).  Privacy allows you both to speak honestly without having to worry about what others might think.

It's not that 'Nice guys' get left behind, it's that they never appear confident and assertive, but D-bags do. When you ask someone out, just go for broke and do it without thinking about it. If you over think it, you won't do it, or it'll come out like "I sorta kinda like how cute you are." instead of something like, " I want to take you to this great Thai place Friday night."
Get use to "No" and keeping trying for those hail marys, because sooner or later you are going to get a "Yes".

P.S. let us know how it goes!  ;D

Well I'm going to have to wait at least until this weekend because I have two tests and three interviews this week so I'm going to be super busy and I don't want to worry about it too much right now. Should I try to get an answer from her on the spot or should I leave after I tell her and give her a few days to think about it?

On the spot, the more time she has to think, greater the chance she'll say no.

Quote from: Godless on September 27, 2011, 04:34:27 AM
Well I'm going to have to wait at least until this weekend because I have two tests and three interviews this week so I'm going to be super busy and I don't want to worry about it too much right now. Should I try to get an answer from her on the spot or should I leave after I tell her and give her a few days to think about it?

See how it goes, I'd think. I'd do my best to make my feelings clear, but I wouldn't put her in a position where she feels like she's being presented with an ultimatum. For instance, if you said, "I have a confession to make, I have a crush on you," etc.etc and then said, "so would you be interested in doing something with me? Are you free sometime this week (or whatever)?" she could respond in one of three ways:

1) "No, I'm sorry, I'm not interested in you that way": In which case, you should feel proud because you had the guts to put your cards on the table and you have a resolution to your situation.

2) "Yes, that'd be nice!": In which case, Yipee! Set a time and place!

3) "Oh, I don't know, let me think about it". This is the tricky one. The only real response you can give (without seeming crazy) is "sure, that's no problem, I understand. Let me know". The thing is, what's ACTUALLY going on is one of two things: She really is surprised and she needs to think about it and consider that she might have feelings for you. Or, she already KNOWS that she's not interested in you and she is taking the coward's way out.  From personal experience, a lot of women, especially younger-college aged women, take the coward's way out.

So, if you are left in situation number three, I think the best thing to do is leave the ball in her court. If she genuinely needs some time to sort through her feelings and she realizes that you guys might have some potential, she'll come to you. If she puts things off or keeps saying things like "You're a really nice guy, I just don't know. Maybe. It's hard to say right now". That's her taking the coward's way out and your best bet is to move on. After a week or so, she really should have had time to think things through and if she still seems to be dangling you along, without any real progression, I'd say it's time to let her go.

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on September 27, 2011, 05:12:24 AM

Quote from: Godless on September 27, 2011, 04:34:27 AM
Well I'm going to have to wait at least until this weekend because I have two tests and three interviews this week so I'm going to be super busy and I don't want to worry about it too much right now. Should I try to get an answer from her on the spot or should I leave after I tell her and give her a few days to think about it?

See how it goes, I'd think. I'd do my best to make my feelings clear, but I wouldn't put her in a position where she feels like she's being presented with an ultimatum. For instance, if you said, "I have a confession to make, I have a crush on you," etc.etc and then said, "so would you be interested in doing something with me? Are you free sometime this week (or whatever)?" she could respond in one of three ways:

1) "No, I'm sorry, I'm not interested in you that way": In which case, you should feel proud because you had the guts to put your cards on the table and you have a resolution to your situation.

2) "Yes, that'd be nice!": In which case, Yipee! Set a time and place!

3) "Oh, I don't know, let me think about it". This is the tricky one. The only real response you can give (without seeming crazy) is "sure, that's no problem, I understand. Let me know". The thing is, what's ACTUALLY going on is one of two things: She really is surprised and she needs to think about it and consider that she might have feelings for you. Or, she already KNOWS that she's not interested in you and she is taking the coward's way out.  From personal experience, a lot of women, especially younger-college aged women, take the coward's way out.

So, if you are left in situation number three, I think the best thing to do is leave the ball in her court. If she genuinely needs some time to sort through her feelings and she realizes that you guys might have some potential, she'll come to you. If she puts things off or keeps saying things like "You're a really nice guy, I just don't know. Maybe. It's hard to say right now". That's her taking the coward's way out and your best bet is to move on. After a week or so, she should really have had time to think things through and if she still seems to be dangling you along, without any real progression, I'd say it's time to let her go.

This!

I was thinking of saying something like "I feel like I need this get this off my chest. As you probably already know, I have a bit of a crush on you. I know you said you weren't interested in a relationship. But if you give me a chance, you won't be disappointed. But if you really don't want anything then I'll respect your word and won't bother you about it again."

How does that sound?

Quote from: Godless on September 29, 2011, 08:49:24 AM
I was thinking of saying something like "I feel like I need this get this off my chest. As you probably already know, I have a bit of a crush on you. I know you said you weren't interested in a relationship. But if you give me a chance, you won't be disappointed. But if you really don't want anything then I'll respect your word and won't bother you about it again."

How does that sound?

Give her a dozen red roses, there's no possibility of saying the wrong thing then.

Wouldn't that just come across as trying too hard?

Quote from: Tank on September 29, 2011, 09:01:47 AM

Quote from: Godless on September 29, 2011, 08:49:24 AM
I was thinking of saying something like "I feel like I need this get this off my chest. As you probably already know, I have a bit of a crush on you. I know you said you weren't interested in a relationship. But if you give me a chance, you won't be disappointed. But if you really don't want anything then I'll respect your word and won't bother you about it again."

How does that sound?

Give her a dozen red roses, there's no possibility of saying the wrong thing then.

Quote from: Godless on September 29, 2011, 10:25:07 AM
Wouldn't that just come across as trying too hard?

Quote from: Tank on September 29, 2011, 09:01:47 AM

Quote from: Godless on September 29, 2011, 08:49:24 AM
I was thinking of saying something like "I feel like I need this get this off my chest. As you probably already know, I have a bit of a crush on you. I know you said you weren't interested in a relationship. But if you give me a chance, you won't be disappointed. But if you really don't want anything then I'll respect your word and won't bother you about it again."

How does that sound?

Give her a dozen red roses, there's no possibility of saying the wrong thing then.

Possiblly, possibly, but it is completly unambiguious and all you need to do is smile  ;D

Well, I just talked to her about 15 minutes ago. She said she isn't looking for a relationship because it would be unfair to me since she wouldn't invest the same amount of time and effort. But she seemed really cool about it so it wasn't really that awkward.

Quote from: Godless on September 30, 2011, 09:38:18 PM
Well, I just talked to her about 15 minutes ago. She said she isn't looking for a relationship because it would be unfair to me since she wouldn't invest the same amount of time and effort. But she seemed really cool about it so it wasn't really that awkward.

:'( Bugger!

Yeah, that sucks  :(. But at least you know now, good for you for doing it.

Quote from: Godless on September 30, 2011, 09:38:18 PM
Well, I just talked to her about 15 minutes ago. She said she isn't looking for a relationship because it would be unfair to me since she wouldn't invest the same amount of time and effort. But she seemed really cool about it so it wasn't really that awkward.

Bummer. But, now that that's done, you can move on.

My advice: Learn to play guitar. Start a crappy band. Sing about stuff. Play a show or two.
I guarantee you'll meet people, and some of them will most likely be girls. ;)

Quote from: Godless on September 30, 2011, 09:38:18 PM
Well, I just talked to her about 15 minutes ago. She said she isn't looking for a relationship because it would be unfair to me since she wouldn't invest the same amount of time and effort. But she seemed really cool about it so it wasn't really that awkward.

See..not so bad and next time you have a crush you'll remember how telling the girl wasn't that bad of an experience and just ask her out.

But time to move on for sure now.

Quote from: BullyforBronto on October 01, 2011, 01:38:08 AM

Quote from: Godless on September 30, 2011, 09:38:18 PM
Well, I just talked to her about 15 minutes ago. She said she isn't looking for a relationship because it would be unfair to me since she wouldn't invest the same amount of time and effort. But she seemed really cool about it so it wasn't really that awkward.

Bummer. But, now that that's done, you can move on.

My advice: Learn to play guitar. Start a crappy band. Sing about stuff. Play a show or two.
I guarantee you'll meet people, and some of them will most likely be girls. ;)

The Pete Townsend method to meet girls. He hired Roger Daltry to attract girls on the basis he'd get the cast offs, he was right.

One of the nicest guys I've ever seen (almost nauseatingly so) is Joel Osteen, a pastor in Houston, Texas.  You probably would not be able to stand watching him preach on TV, but: 1) he has a great looking wife; 2) he's worth millions from his book sales (all his books and his sermons are based on positive thinking, feel-good themes); and 3) he's famous (just saw him being interviewed on Piers Morgan).  He's sort of the new Billy Graham.  When he preaches, he has about 40,000 people looking at him in person in his church (which is the old Houston Rockets gym), and millions on the TV. So there is one nice guy who is wildly successful.  He definitely is not always getting screwed over, but looking at his wife, he probably is always getting screwed. Just sayin'.

You're getting some really bad advice here!  The fact is if you try to pretend to be something you're not you're just asking for trouble.  First of all, women aren't stupid.  If you try to play a roll we're going to see through it.  Second, even if you manage to get someone, how long do you expect to keep up the charade?

Also, not ALL women like assholes and the ones who do aren't all that smart to begin with.  I always had a thing for brains.  Men who could carry a conversation.  And believe me, I was no tease before I met my husband.

The only piece of advice here that I saw as useful is when someone said relationships and dating aren't the same thing.  You don't know who you're getting involved with.  You don't know that the girl you ask out is someone you actually want to get into a relationship.  That's why you start with just dating.  If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out.  If it does then you move into a relationship.

Quote from: MathKat on October 06, 2011, 06:47:49 AM
You're getting some really bad advice here!  The fact is if you try to pretend to be something you're not you're just asking for trouble.  First of all, women aren't stupid.  If you try to play a roll we're going to see through it.  Second, even if you manage to get someone, how long do you expect to keep up the charade?

Also, not ALL women like assholes and the ones who do aren't all that smart to begin with.  I always had a thing for brains.  Men who could carry a conversation.  And believe me, I was no tease before I met my husband.

The only piece of advice here that I saw as useful is when someone said relationships and dating aren't the same thing.  You don't know who you're getting involved with.  You don't know that the girl you ask out is someone you actually want to get into a relationship.  That's why you start with just dating.  If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out.  If it does then you move into a relationship.

I agree with MathKat, and in particular the bit I highlighted. However there is one caveat, whatever you are like you must be confident in yourself. If you just sit back and let the world wash over you then it'll do just that and leave you behind. If you're a 'good guy' be the best 'good guy' you can be and let people see it. Advertise that you are a 'good guy'!!!

I don't remember anyone advising him to be an asshole...just to actually say how he feels instead of quietly obsessing.  For a shy person, part of growing up is learning to express yourself more openly and that requires going outside of a comfort zone.  Some people don't even know I'm shy because I keep putting myself in situations that force me to get over it.  It's not being someone you are not, it's bettering yourself.

I don't remember telling him to pretend to be someone he's not, either? There's a difference between giving someone advice about a tactful way to approach a particular situation and saying "Oh yeah, and pretend to be someone else for your entire relationship. That'll work."

He had a resolution to his situation, so I don't really see the problem.

The reason I didn't post in this thread isn't because of my lack of experience, it's from my lack of good experiences. I've have a lot of relationships, but only one that lasted longer than three months (it lasted seven years). So take my advice with a healthy portion of salt. I'm often categorized as a nice guy because of my willingness to help people, but I'm also called and asshole because I don't care very much (and even when I do care, no one else can tell). People have even said that I'm a pushover because of how often I help at what they would consider a great sacrifice. But I'm also called an asshole for my non-acceptance of things that don't make any sense and people that keep engaging me over them (then saying that I just want to argue).

I've found that being mostly honest works far better than being completely honest. I've always been very honest about me not being very emotional, however no one has ever taken it seriously until months later when they finally acknowledge my lack of emotional awareness and expression. Only in very extreme circumstances do I show a hint of emotion (other than the acting that I've gotten quite good at), but still it takes people a long time to adjust to me as I really am. So I act like I have emotions and I do my best to interpret other people's emotions and how I should react to them, for most people, I'm somewhere in between with many of my friends and I'm not acting at all with close friends and family.

If I want a significant relationship, I think I must be honest, but being completely honest at the start would drive away most potential partners while easing them into my lack of emotions has a bit more success. The biggest problem being that no one believes me at first when I'm being completely honest, which seems to be counter to the purpose of honesty.

I've noticed that some of the people I know go from relationship to relationship. It's like as soon as they break up with someone they immediately need someone else to date. I'm very particular and picky about who I like and who I'll put in effort for to ask out. Throughout my life there's really only been several girls that I really liked and I was pretty much friends with all of them first. I do some times talk to people that I don't know but I feel like I don't do it enough. I used to be pretty shy, but I feel a lot more comfortable talking to complete strangers now.