Happy Atheist Forum

Didn't quite make 250th birthday but it was fun while it lasted. :(

I honestly don't know what to do. Do we stay? Do we leave? If so, where? It's not exactly easy to pack up and move elsewhere.

We're in our 40s and have two daughters who are going to grow up in a much worse place if we stay. What's the right thing to do by them when this country clearly hates them, and us?

My wife is so much calmer somehow, and I both envy her and want to scream at her irrationally because I'm so fucking angry and scared.

well, we re fucked.

trump is already a puppet .  the people to watch are the ones pulling the levers behind the curtain.

Disgusting. I'm too old to move to another planet. Biden has immunity, and can pardon the hit squad. :smilenod: There are enough shitheads in this country to elect a guy who has promised to burn it down.  :(

It's just Trump, mom
You're running away
You'd never believe
What the kids vote today

Seriously though, the United States did not die today any more than it did when Trump was elected for his first term. It was utterly unsurprising that he got his second. Personally, I though it would be closer because for one, i did not expect him to get the popular vote, which it appears that he did, and also I expected a couple of the "battlegrounds" to go Harris. The outcome itself though, broadly speaking... The markets expeccted it for weeks, and I have learned to trust them more than distrust.

This is probably bad news for muh Ukraine situation, but probably OK news for muh Israel situation. Internally in the US... I suspect Trump 2 will be not-unlike Trump 1. I see some possibility for some older Supreme Court justices to retire, so the court will get a "young" Republican majority, so that's one thing... Besides that, there are some upsides and downsides.

Moral is, don't go jumping off bridges until you're shoved off them. :smileshake:

Also, and purely because The Asmo is feeling meme-ish, does this make Trump officially a beater og women? :grin:

...Couldn't resist. :sadshake: for shame on His Gray Terribleness.

I see Trump might repeal the 22nd Amendment.

https://debateus.org/a-bill-to-repeal-the-22nd-amendment/

Quote from: billy rubin on November 06, 2024, 12:23:11 PMwell, we re fucked.

trump is already a puppet .  the people to watch are the ones pulling the levers behind the curtain.

Trump will not be POTUS within 12 months. Then Vance will be the Republican Puppet.

I think that the people in the US mostly voted with their wallets. Harris had also the problem that she could not convince the public that her policies would be better than Biden's. All we got from her were word salads instead of answers. Maybe she should also have selected Josh Shapiro as her running mate instead of Tim Walz?

It's all a bit academic now. But the more I saw Harris the more it felt like her best aspect was that she wasn't Trump. She did not inspire me nor capture my imagination.

I voted for Harris only because she isn't the chump. Keeping the gov on the rails would have been enough, for me.

harris's public support for israel killed her for six of the seven members of my family. my twenty year old son said that he flatly would nt vote for genocide, whether it was democrat or republican. he voted for stein, even though our right wing ohio secretary of state announced that he would not count any votes for stein. gaza killed six votes for harris in my family.

harris is not liberal, nor left. she s a traditional conservative, with standard conservative policies on foreign policy, crime, energy, tariffs, and so on. she and trump went neck and neck announcing identical gifts on taxes to the american people.

the so-called american left has been dragged well right of center by the nut-case conservatives going full-on fascist. th eactual leftists are not even in the picture anymore.

im hearing all sorts of nonmsense in the media about how the democrats are going to need to figure out what went wrong. but its obvious. the democrats totally forgot flyover america, laid their trust in liberal cities, and igored all the space in between. my wife ran for congress twice in this state, and i have a clear view of the indeifference from the mainstream democratic party for working cclass and country-people.

and it cost them, because those people were picked up by trump. hes lying to them, because trump is all about the billionaires, but he gives them enough BS that they think he cares about them, and so they vote for the guy that makes the right sounds with his face.

to get back in power, the democrats are going to have to notice that they dont offer many, many americans anything except scorn and indifference.

i dont know whether they can figure this out.

Quote from: billy rubin on November 06, 2024, 10:09:04 PMharris's public support for israel killed her for six of the seven members of my family. my twenty year old son said that he flatly would nt vote for genocide, whether it was democrat or republican.

(https://i.imgur.com/ofOMPT1.jpeg)

Quote from: billy rubin on November 06, 2024, 10:09:04 PMharris's public support for israel killed her for six of the seven members of my family. my twenty year old son said that he flatly would nt vote for genocide, whether it was democrat or republican. he voted for stein, even though our right wing ohio secretary of state announced that he would not count any votes for stein. gaza killed six votes for harris in my family.

harris is not liberal, nor left. she s a traditional conservative, with standard conservative policies on foreign policy, crime, energy, tariffs, and so on. she and trump went neck and neck announcing identical gifts on taxes to the american people.

the so-called american left has been dragged well right of center by the nut-case conservatives going full-on fascist. th eactual leftists are not even in the picture anymore.

im hearing all sorts of nonmsense in the media about how the democrats are going to need to figure out what went wrong. but its obvious. the democrats totally forgot flyover america, laid their trust in liberal cities, and igored all the space in between. my wife ran for congress twice in this state, and i have a clear view of the indeifference from the mainstream democratic party for working cclass and country-people.

and it cost them, because those people were picked up by trump. hes lying to them, because trump is all about the billionaires, but he gives them enough BS that they think he cares about them, and so they vote for the guy that makes the right sounds with his face.

to get back in power, the democrats are going to have to notice that they dont offer many, many americans anything except scorn and indifference.

i dont know whether they can figure this out.

They don't represent the face-eating leopards. Your life is quite likely going to get even worse after this election, not that that is anything that makes me happy to say. I'm not going to posit anything, we'll just let this scenario play itself out.

We can get some clues by watching the Market. If we endure a recession the market will take a steep dive. The rich people will then buy up a lot of cheap stocks, which will tend to concentrate wealth...and power.
.
The huge number of less sophisticated people have voted against their own best interests. Trump has made a big deal out of his promise to deport all the undocumented people, most of then Hispanic. The estimated number is something like 20 million. If only part of them were deported, it would create a crisis at the grocery store that would cause prices to rise dramatically.

The possibilities of a serious economic downturn accompanied by inflation would create some definite hardships for the ordinary family. Trump has vowed to install tariffs on damned near everything that is imported. Does the dumbass not know that foreign suppliers would reciprocate with their own tariffs. Trade wars are not good for anyones economy.  I fear that my voters have managed to "shit in their own mess kit".

Orwell already warned us about unbridled fascism. Trump has let it be known that he has dictatorial ambitions and that he and only he knows best.   

Quote from: Dark Lightning on November 07, 2024, 02:34:27 AMThey don't represent the face-eating leopards. Your life is quite likely going to get even worse after this election, not that that is anything that makes me happy to say. I'm not going to posit anything, we'll just let this scenario play itself out.

Play itself out..

QuoteWhat does leopard eating faces mean?
a parody of regretful voters who vote for cruel and unjust policies (and politicians) and are then surprised when their own lives become worse as a result.

I'd be hugely surprised if voters such as our self entangled Billy could make the connection between his action and his future woe.

Drill baby drill.

That guy is a nut. #14.
He should just have said a woman is never going to win.

Quote from: Firebird on November 06, 2024, 10:00:49 AMI honestly don't know what to do. Do we stay? Do we leave? If so, where? It's not exactly easy to pack up and move elsewhere.

We're in our 40s and have two daughters who are going to grow up in a much worse place if we stay. What's the right thing to do by them when this country clearly hates them, and us?

My wife is so much calmer somehow, and I both envy her and want to scream at her irrationally because I'm so fucking angry and scared.

Yes, we are all so fucked. And we apparently got the president we collectively deserve. I truly don't recognize my country. My husband and I don't have kids, but our friends have young ones. Scary, scary times.

I'm especially pissed at the leftists who didn't vote bc "there's no difference between the parties" and/or "Palestine." Fuck all the way off. We're about to see the difference between status quo and racist authoritarian with no more checks left on him.

This was the last straw for my son. He and his family are coming back to the UK.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on November 07, 2024, 01:12:21 PMI'd be hugely surprised if voters such as our self entangled Billy could make the connection between his action and his future woe.

Drill baby drill.

in what ways do you consider me entangled, penny?

Quote from: Anne D. on November 09, 2024, 05:51:41 PM

Quote from: Firebird on November 06, 2024, 10:00:49 AMI honestly don't know what to do. Do we stay? Do we leave? If so, where? It's not exactly easy to pack up and move elsewhere.

We're in our 40s and have two daughters who are going to grow up in a much worse place if we stay. What's the right thing to do by them when this country clearly hates them, and us?

My wife is so much calmer somehow, and I both envy her and want to scream at her irrationally because I'm so fucking angry and scared.

Yes, we are all so fucked. And we apparently got the president we collectively deserve. I truly don't recognize my country. My husband and I don't have kids, but our friends have young ones. Scary, scary times.

I'm especially pissed at the leftists who didn't vote bc "there's no difference between the parties" and/or "Palestine." Fuck all the way off. We're about to see the difference between status quo and racist authoritarian with no more checks left on him.

Recommendation: Hang around for a while, things become more apparent over time. Trump is a hard nut for most to crack. One's true nature is seen when given time.  :)

the problem i have is that it appears that many americans already do perceive his true nature and thats what they like.

i think lots of people arent fooled at all.

Quote from: billy rubin on November 10, 2024, 03:39:38 AMthe problem i have is that it appears that many americans already do perceive his true nature and thats what they like.

i thonk lots of people arent fooled at all.

I agree with Billy. Some of us are inclined to allow the prospect of approaching  fascism, oligarchy, plutocracy, theocrasy. Or, is it more likely that many of the voters who installed the Trump person as the new president, do not know what any of those political conditions entail? 

Quote from: billy rubin on November 09, 2024, 08:05:58 PM

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on November 07, 2024, 01:12:21 PMI'd be hugely surprised if voters such as our self entangled Billy could make the connection between his action and his future woe.

Drill baby drill.

in what ways do you consider me entangled, penny?

Are we talking quantum entanglement or something else?

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on November 07, 2024, 01:12:21 PMDrill baby drill.

Also, frack baby frack and probably a couple of other relevant and totally non-sexual metaphors. :smilenod:

https://youtu.be/5sB1Gljhx9I?feature=shared

i didnt think this was real.

Speaking of, check out this guy at about 2:03. It has to be satire or some such, I imagine, but it's so good! (The rest is mostly underwhelming, performatively speaking)


The Asmo wanders off to amuse Himself with more unhingedness on the Internet. Not necessarily election-related either. Some Florida Man antics out there... Priceless.

Quote from: billy rubin on November 09, 2024, 08:05:58 PM

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on November 07, 2024, 01:12:21 PMI'd be hugely surprised if voters such as our self entangled Billy could make the connection between his action and his future woe.

Drill baby drill.

in what ways do you consider me entangled, penny?

Sorry Billy, I saw you as something other and I thought self entangled, but that's not it.
You're so free
You can carry a gun and be the next Dalai Lama
You can promote panpsychism on an atheist forum and no one says WTF
you won't vote for a Democrat because of Gaza
you deplore the wrong being done to the earth but Gaza so why not Trump

I think you're some very particular kind of fucking idiot Billy.

Quote from: billy rubin on November 06, 2024, 10:09:04 PMharris's public support for israel killed her for six of the seven members of my family. my twenty year old son said that he flatly would nt vote for genocide, whether it was democrat or republican. he voted for stein, even though our right wing ohio secretary of state announced that he would not count any votes for stein. gaza killed six votes for harris in my family.

No need to pile obscenities on a other forum member.

At the end of the day, everyone but The Asmo is a hypocrite and those who are not are prolly damned liars...

...Wait. No... No, that doesn't seem to work.

...DAMMIT! :rant:

Back to being serious though, what Billy said in the quote (and the adjacent posts) that you used seems pretty internally-consistent. When your perception is that you are voting for one of two evils, abstaining is a viable third option.

If you don't want Trump to win because reasons, but then you don't want Harris to win because [possibly-overlapping] reasons... Vote for that Green woman or that Kennedy dude or just stay at home and make it known to any-one who cares to inquire that you could not support anybody and why. You may do more good for whatever cause you may champion that way than by gritting your teeth and casting the ballot.

That said, you can absolutely carry a weapon of war and not mean anybody harm. You can absolutely "one-issue-vote" against both parties if neither of them addresses that one issue in a way acceptable to you. And yes, you can even promote panpsychism on an Atheist forum - just as long as you don't preach it. (As in, as long as you engage in meaningful discourse rather than "post-and-run.")

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on November 13, 2024, 12:04:47 PM

Quote from: billy rubin on November 09, 2024, 08:05:58 PM

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on November 07, 2024, 01:12:21 PMI'd be hugely surprised if voters such as our self entangled Billy could make the connection between his action and his future woe.

Drill baby drill.

in what ways do you consider me entangled, penny?

Sorry Billy, I saw you as something other and I thought self entangled, but that's not it.
You're so free
You can carry a gun and be the next Dalai Lama
You can promote panpsychism on an atheist forum and no one says WTF
you won't vote for a Democrat because of Gaza
you deplore the wrong being done to the earth but Gaza so why not Trump

I think you're some very particular kind of fucking idiot Billy.

Quote from: billy rubin on November 06, 2024, 10:09:04 PMharris's public support for israel killed her for six of the seven members of my family. my twenty year old son said that he flatly would nt vote for genocide, whether it was democrat or republican. he voted for stein, even though our right wing ohio secretary of state announced that he would not count any votes for stein. gaza killed six votes for harris in my family.

mercy

well then, this appears to be a golden opportunity for you to cease reading my posts and to ignore my existence.

i encourage you to do so.

Have you seen who Trump has put in charge of the military! WWIII here we come.

the fox news host?

i shudder.

meet the new attorney general

(https://media.vanityfair.com/photos/606484055e531a46c84d7e57/master/w_2560%2Cc_limit/mattgaetz.jpg)

matt gaetz is still under ethics investigation by the house of representatives for accusations of statutory rape and drug use, iirc. he will head the justice department, which oversees the FBI.

but we have elected a clown, and he is now presenting the circus.

Trump is busily anointing a variety of questionable characters for the various secretaries of this or that. Matt Gaetz as Attorney General, accused of dalliances with under age females, fanatical Trump suck up, along with several other disqualifying traits . Appointing a Fox news anchor guy to be Secretary of Defense is puzzling but typical Trump. Kristi Noem for secretary of something or other, governor of South Dakota, and famous for shooting dogs? Noem a Trump suck up, along with damned near all of the other appointees.

The senate has to confirm all these appointments but that is almost a no sweat deal. The senate has a majority of loyal red members.  Trump is also angling for approval to use "recess appointments" which means that when the Senate is in recess, the president can make appointments without senate approval. The president has the power to issue a recess order..............how clever!

Trumps buddy-buddy status with Victor Orban and V. Putin is not an encouraging prospect.

Here is our new attorney General. A real sexy dude with tats to prove it........

https://imgur.com/gallery/trumps-new-defense-secretary-ZADgI0F (https://imgur.com/gallery/trumps-new-defense-secretary-ZADgI0F)

Quote from: Icarus on November 13, 2024, 11:44:43 PMTrump is busily anointing a variety of questionable characters for the various secretaries of this or that. Matt Gaetz as Attorney General, accused of dalliances with under age females, fanatical Trump suck up, along with several other disqualifying traits . Appointing a Fox news anchor guy to be Secretary of Defense is puzzling but typical Trump. Kristi Noem for secretary of something or other, governor of South Dakota, and famous for shooting dogs? Noem a Trump suck up, along with damned near all of the other appointees.

The senate has to confirm all these appointments but that is almost a no sweat deal. The senate has a majority of loyal red members.  Trump is also angling for approval to use "recess appointments" which means that when the Senate is in recess, the president can make appointments without senate approval. The president has the power to issue a recess order..............how clever!

Trumps buddy-buddy status with Victor Orban and V. Putin is not an encouraging prospect.

I'm feeling despair over the direction this nation is headed. I really wish that that kid had had time for better aim. I don't give a pinch of feces what anyone thinks of that statement. Better one turd flushed than what's going to happen with a bunch of incompetent sycophants pulling the levers of government with no understanding of their operation. Might as well have the remaining monkeys loose in North Carolina pulling those levers. FWIW, I've seen where Putin mocked the chump's claim that he'd stop the war in Ukraine within two days of being elected. Putin doesn't even need to visit the US and talk with the chump. Just the chump's being elected is enough to trash the US.  :(

Try not to despair too much DL. A friend who happened to be a shrink gave me a valuable bit of advice one time. The gist of the advice is to not agonize over some circumstance or event over which you have absolutely no control. That is not easy for either of us at this time of so miserable a chain of events.

I am ashamed that I have changed my perspective a bit in the last few days. I have also speculated about having the kid adjust his aim 8 centimeters up and 9 centimeters to the right. I am pretty sure that there are more than two of us who have gotten to the point of abandoning our moral compass.

We now have the news that The Donald has proposed to have Mike Huckabee assigned as the Ambassador to Israel. A freaking Baptist preacher, who is a certified religious fanatic, can now go to Israel and convert the Hebrews and Palestinians to Jesus.

Here is a thought that has crept into my old brain............Trump announces that he will select several questionable candidates for his cabinet. The Senate must approve of those selections. Some of the senators will reject certain ones of his proposals. The other senators will approve. That is a damned crafty way to discover who the the most loyal Trump lackeys are, and which of them do not have their noses up his Royal ass. 

I'm lost for words, I really am. I can't bare to read the news at the moment. And I don't even live there.

I think it was around 1956 when Nikita Krushev assured us: we will conquer America without filing a shot. America will destroy itself from within.

The drawback of a free society is that sometimes, its residents will exercise their freedom in a destructive direction.

Frankly, I see more danger to the United States from balkabnisation of its society - yes, also over Donald Trump - than I do from his cabinet's potential policy direction.

^ The word you used, Balkanisation, is frighteningly close to reality, I fear.

Yes, though I messed it up. I was being on my mobile phone with my four decades old fingers, which were last new and nimble during the past millennium, which is a thousand years, by the way. Apparently, I can't spell worth crap on a iPhone. :smilenod: Venice for Venus and balbaki-something for Balkanisation. Good times.

In any case, that takeaway is largely based on The Internet(tm), which does not always reflect the "real world," but what I do observe there is mutual unfriendliness, if not plain hostility, across political allegiances, ethnicities, Identities(tm), social statuses and so forth. That's Balkanisation, and that's... Unfortunate, to understate it a understated bit.

Far be it for me to dispense sage advice about holding hands and singing hippie songs, but I think that this trend will continue and possibly continue to escalate as long as people are unwilling to see each other as fellow Americans first and foremost. (What, aside from common geography, does unite you or ought to unite you as a "weightier" concern when measured against what does divide or ought to divide you)

At least when it comes to ideology, I'd like to highlight this here study;
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12227-0

It's worth going in to, but in the interest of brevity, I'd like to draw attention to this here heat map, showing moral allocations relative to ideology (explained in the quote belosw image);
(https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-019-12227-0/MediaObjects/41467_2019_12227_Fig5_HTML.png?as=webp)

Quote from: nature.comHeatmaps indicating highest moral allocation by ideology, Study 3a. Source data are provided as a Source Data file. Note. The highest value on the heatmap scale is 20 units for liberals, and 12 units for conservatives. Moral circle rings, from inner to outer, are described as follows: (1) all of your immediate family, (2) all of your extended family, (3) all of your closest friends, (4) all of your friends (including distant ones), (5) all of your acquaintances, (6) all people you have ever met, (7) all people in your country, (8') all people on your continent, (9) all people on all continents, (10) all mammals, (11) all amphibians, reptiles, mammals, fish, and birds, (12) all animals on earth including paramecia and amoebae, (13) all animals in the universe, including alien lifeforms, (14) all living things in the universe including plants and trees, (15) all natural things in the universe including inert entities such as rocks, (16) all things in existence

While it may seem like a matter of irreconcilable opposites, it's worth considering that at the end of the day, it's just a matter of looking at the same thing from different angles. Yes, it's valid to consider the "needs of the Universe" above those of your across-the-street neighbour, but then so is it valid to consider your neighbour's interests above those of the Universe.

Heat maps be damned. We have huge divisions here in the U.S.of A.

That's what the heatmap shows. Huge division with regard to assigning moral value "from self" vs "from everything."

My point is that it's still the same things being considered. If it is of high value to you, does not mean that it's of high value to me. If it is of high value to me, does not mean that it's not valueless to you. That's fine.

I see it as a fight between Americanis

Quote from: Asmodean on November 06, 2024, 02:20:37 PMIt's just Trump, mom
You're running away
You'd never believe
What the kids vote today

Seriously though, the United States did not die today any more than it did when Trump was elected for his first term. It was utterly unsurprising that he got his second. Personally, I though it would be closer because for one, i did not expect him to get the popular vote, which it appears that he did, and also I expected a couple of the "battlegrounds" to go Harris. The outcome itself though, broadly speaking... The markets expeccted it for weeks, and I have learned to trust them more than distrust.

This is probably bad news for muh Ukraine situation, but probably OK news for muh Israel situation. Internally in the US... I suspect Trump 2 will be not-unlike Trump 1. I see some possibility for some older Supreme Court justices to retire, so the court will get a "young" Republican majority, so that's one thing... Besides that, there are some upsides and downsides.

Moral is, don't go jumping off bridges until you're shoved off them. :smileshake:

Also, and purely because The Asmo is feeling meme-ish, does this make Trump officially a beater og women? :grin:

...Couldn't resist. :sadshake: for shame on His Gray Terribleness.

I see it as a fight between Americanism and communism.  Americanism = personal rights, communism/socialism = no personal rights. The constitution is redundant - It's unconstitutional to go against the constitution which is founded on natural rights not man made rights. Natural rights cannot be erased just overridden. A population always retains it natural rights but not allowed by tyrants to exercise them. :) 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

So why did Trump win? Because he's what the average Joe American aspires to be. That is a terrifying thought. He is the essence of the 'merican dream/nightmare. He speaks to too many americans. He is an ignorant selfish sexist lying bully. Yet he resonates with over 70 million americans.

Sorry, T, but that's just poor analysis.

I'm certain that Trump did get votes from those who aspire to his achievements, factual or perceived. He also got votes from those who "Trump of the gap" - he says many weird things, so one can choose the version of Trump to "believe in." Then, he got votes from people who just feel worse off now than they were 4-5 years ago, and consider it to be through no fault of their own. He also got some votes from voters who are tired of, as Bill Maher puts it, "the woke mind virus." Some voted for him because they saw easier ways of achieving personal gain. Some like oil, gas and other such-like that can be sold to someone else for profit. Some were alienated enough by the "party of college-educated elites" to first hop on the fence, then hop off it in a other direction. There are even those who want to protect their kids from gender-affirming-alphabet-soup-nonsense, which is quite fashionable in the "leftmost" reaches of society. I would imagine that some also voted against Harris. Then of course you have an occasional legal immigrant, who may resent what the influx of illegals does to his family's standing in the local community, or if you are a suburban house wife, you may value family above a federal access to pregnancy termination "no matter the circumstances." You may be tired of your government sinking billions into foreign wars while some veterans at home die of fentanyl overdose under the bridge.

This is by far not exhaustive, and there are many individual reasons to vote for Trump. There are many compound reasons to vote for him as well.

There is no simple answer. The US equivalent of me, who would normally fit in somewhere in the sky-blue range, and a blue collar worker from Louisiana, a proud 9th generation Republican, may have very different reasons to vote for Donald Trump, and just as different reasons to not vote against him.

If your purpose is to change minds, then maybe start by acknowledging the plurality that "s" in "minds" indicates - Trump voters are no more a hivemind than Harris voters are.

I agree there are as many different views of Trump/Trumpism as there are people who hold an opinion about him. And it is also true that generalisations are generally wrong. However I stand by my overall analysis of the groupthink associated with the people who aspire to Trumpism. Selfishness is one outcome of the American dream/nightmare. The needs/desires of the individual outweighs those of society. After 240 years of refinement Trump and his ilk are the result.

I liked Asmo's post, nuanced, astute.  I still think he should be on the Right Thinking Person's Watchlist though. For historical reasons and his recent indifference to the victory of Trump or, or,,, what was her name?

Quote from: Tank on November 20, 2024, 09:50:32 AMI agree there are as many different views of Trump/Trumpism as there are people who hold an opinion about him. And it is also true that generalisations are generally wrong.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: Tank on November 20, 2024, 09:50:32 AMHowever I stand by my overall analysis of the groupthink associated with the people who aspire to Trumpism.

How many who voted Trump aspire to Trumpism 10% 20% 40% 60% 80% ?

Quote from: Tank on November 20, 2024, 09:50:32 AMSelfishness is one outcome of the American dream/nightmare. The needs/desires of the individual outweighs those of society. After 240 years of refinement Trump and his ilk are the result.

Don't want the government looking at me or after me, well it owes me my dues but it should be as stingy as me when it comes to giving to others, maybe slightly more a US thing than an us thing.

I think I'm out of practice with this forum stuff, expressing my personal gripes as a universal principle.

How did we of the light lose them to the dark, and how did I fall into gloom?

They said we should be nice, invite all those doing it hard in to share the milk and honey, there will be even more m&h for everyone, I could show you the maths but you wouldn't understand, and even if I've got it wrong, the vast improvement of their lives outweighs the slight, the infinitesimal, not worth measuring decline in your living standard. Home affordability seems to be a problem in all the former nice places now, I heard nice young Justin Trudeau trying to being less nice this morning, Jacinda has gone from NZ.

trump got only 2.7 percent more votes in 2024 than he got in 2020.

harris got over 9 percent fewer votes than biden did in 2020.

trump won because he was supported by the more or less the same people who always supported him, and some new ones. the democrats lost because a huge number of their voters stayed home or voted third party.

Yes, you see, I have a much easier time buying the above first-degree approximation than "Because they wanna be like him." :smilenod: I think it hits far closer to the mark. People did not rally around Harris like they did Biden.

Now, some would say that it's because "muh-sojiny and racism." That's not far from the quality of argument that the Glorious Golden Shine of His Eternal Majesty the God-Emperor of All Mankind is just too irresistible.

Quote from: Tank on November 20, 2024, 09:50:32 AMSelfishness is one outcome of the American dream/nightmare. The needs/desires of the individual outweighs those of society.

Or maybe let us I vote for me, and you vote for you and whoever wins, gets their way? You don't have to vote for a "we," an "us" or a "they/them." That will sort itself out.

Voting "close to home" as opposed to "for the betterment of humxnkind" doesn't even need to be selfish by the common standard. (disregarding that near-damned-well-everything is selfish if examined in minute enough detail)

For example, you may say that my position on abortion rights is selfish. Sure, it is based on the events of my life, but my ship hath sailed in that regard. So, when I look at abortion as a variable in the sea of ideological variables, my interest in it is to protect others in a similar situation to the one I experienced from the damage of it. If enough "mes" align in the desired policy outcome with enough others who want to do good by their God or universally think that ending a human life is not a decision another human gets to make or whatever - maybe we all get "our" way for all sorts of different reasons. We are all selfish. That doesn't mean that all we are is selfish.

Despite the Trump and the Trump people claiming that he won by a landslide, he actually won by only one point six
(1.6 ) percentage points. Way more than 70 million people voted for Harris.....including my own vote, of course.

I strongly suspect that disinformation (propagandist bullshit) on various social media sites had a lot to do with the decisions of a significant proportion of the voters. The principal of geometric progression can make a big difference in outcomes. One lie becomes two lies then four......eight........ sixteen and so on.

If the US had an educated, discerning populace with trained reasoning skills, the chump- or Bush, for that matter- would never even have got a nod to begin with. The right wing has been lying and laying ground for a long time for this to happen.

I agree. Critical thinking doesn't reliably produce the meek workers/avid consumers that big money wants though. Much better to have (for instance) devoted fans of professional "wrestling"--not so many unwelcome questions from them. The incoherent wannabe strongman has complied (https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/5-things-to-know-about-linda-mcmahon-trumps-pick-for-education-secretary/2024/11).

Quote from: Dark Lightning on November 21, 2024, 02:47:54 AMIf the US had an educated, discerning populace with trained reasoning skills, the chump- or Bush, for that matter- would never even have got a nod to begin with. The right wing has been lying and laying ground for a long time for this to happen.

im not convinced. plenty of educated and intelligent people support trump.

the nazis at auschwitz waltzed to mozart at their dinner parties.

Quote from: billy rubin on November 21, 2024, 01:01:43 PM

Quote from: Dark Lightning on November 21, 2024, 02:47:54 AMIf the US had an educated, discerning populace with trained reasoning skills, the chump- or Bush, for that matter- would never even have got a nod to begin with. The right wing has been lying and laying ground for a long time for this to happen.

im not convinced. plenty of educated and intelligent people support trump.

the nazis at auschwitz waltzed to mozart at their dinner parties.

Yes of course but they are of the oppressor class, not proles.

Quote from: Recusant on November 21, 2024, 05:24:01 AMI agree. Critical thinking doesn't reliably produce the meek workers/avid consumers that big money wants though. Much better to have (for instance) devoted fans of professional "wrestling"--not so many unwelcome questions from them. The incoherent wannabe strongman has complied (https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/5-things-to-know-about-linda-mcmahon-trumps-pick-for-education-secretary/2024/11).

Are they really producing meek workers or big disruly toddlers?

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on November 21, 2024, 01:35:11 PM

Quote from: Recusant on November 21, 2024, 05:24:01 AMI agree. Critical thinking doesn't reliably produce the meek workers/avid consumers that big money wants though. Much better to have (for instance) devoted fans of professional "wrestling"--not so many unwelcome questions from them. The incoherent wannabe strongman has complied (https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/5-things-to-know-about-linda-mcmahon-trumps-pick-for-education-secretary/2024/11).

Are they really producing meek workers or big disruly toddlers?

The toddlers who smeared their shit in the halls of the Capitol were notably not demanding better working conditions, nor for an increase in the ridiculously low federal minimum wage. They were demonstrating their gullible loyalty to a malevolent buffoon.

^ Indeed.

Quote from: billy rubin on November 20, 2024, 12:28:34 PMtrump got only 2.7 percent more votes in 2024 than he got in 2020.

harris got over 9 percent fewer votes than biden did in 2020.

trump won because he was supported by the more or less the same people who always supported him, and some new ones. the democrats lost because a huge number of their voters stayed home or voted third party.

Sad but understandable.

World War 3 has now begun, according to some sources.
https://www.politico.eu/article/ww3-officially-begun-ukraine-ex-top-general-valery-zaluzhny/

But Trump is here to save the world!
www.documentaries.org/films/john-titor-time-traveler/
Okay, so maybe the time-line is a bit out, but American cities are at risk of being nuked by the Russians.

Relieved to find I'm out of the way in the UK, or so explains the Daily Bullshit.
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/chilling-ww3-nuke-map-reveals-34164430

matt gaetz has stepped down from his attourney general nomination, in the wake of threats to release his ethics investigation.

he has just announced he will not return to congress, in spite of winning the election for the next term after this.

i predict within 30 days he will announce that he has been hired by fox news as a television political commentator.

I would take that bet.

could also go political analyst at some punditry house or other. :smilenod:

Plenty a' "do-nothing-job" opportunities for the political ne'er-do-wells out there. :smilenod:

The newest appointee to the job is Pam Bondi, the former attorney general of the state of Florida. She is much prettier than Gaetz but she is also an unapologetic suck up to Trump as well as having a far right mentality.  Aside from that, she is probably a competent lawyer but not up to speed as the U.S. attorney general. She will do the Orange Mans bidding to be sure. Let us see what the Senate will decide about her confirmation.

they will stamp their feet and make important speeches about democracy and their role in safeguarding our republic, and then they will vote to confirm anybody trump suggests.

they would have confirmed even gaetz but he dropped out when  the committee announced that they had testimony from witnesses he didnt know that they had interviewed. all the important people were already supporting gaetz.

this would all be funny if it werent my country running into the gutter.

There is an outside chance that this administration will be such a clusterfuck that America will learn a lesson? No? I thought not :(

Quote from: billy rubin on November 26, 2024, 11:01:59 PMthis would all be funny if it werent my country running into the gutter.

Trump administration has yet to take office, so if your country is already running into an gutter, then maybe there are other explanations as to why.

If it still is after they've held office for a few months and with no sign of improvement, then maybe there be something to it. Until that time, the standing truth is that not being likeable, or even being a "bad" person by some measure or other, does not, generally speaking, preclude one from being good at one's job.

nobody in my government has been any good at it for many years.

the rot in my government goes back a long way. money is at the root, and a long practice of de-educating the people, balkanizing the politics, and  devising and supporting an oligarchy that makes the one in russia shrink into insignificance.

the democrats are no better than the republicans.  supposedly trump was the anti-christ, or so they said. but now theyre inviting  him to tea at the white house? how are they preparing for the end of america, no that hes going to be president? im not hearing anything. so was it all just an act?

 the democrats are as complicit as the republicans in the perpetuation of economic inequality. why did average americans lose their shirts in the financial crisis while obama gave millions to rich bankers? because democrats care about working people? i dont think so.

but i see no indication that trump is competent. he added 8 trillion dollars to my countries national debt, he already shut down the government once, hes announced his intentions with respect to domestic and foreign policy. he appointed revisionist judges to the courts, he withdrew from essential foreign treaties.

donald trump pulled out of from the iran nuclear deal and re-imposed sanctions. he told iran, call me. iran told him to fuck himself. is the world safer? iran is now two weeks from weapons grade uranium, at any time.

trump told north korea to fear his wrath. kim jong un told him to fuck himself. is the world safer now? north korea continues to improve its ICBMs.

trump told china to shape up or ship out. china told trump to go fuck himself. the 200 billion dollar soy and corn deal with china went away, and trump took 28 billion dollars of my taxes bailing out american farmers. no socialism there.

trump adores putin. is the world a safer place with trump appeasing that dictator? we have two months until we see trumps master plan for peace in our time. i can predict what it will be.

theres no need to wait for what he ll do. looking at his cabinent , and his promises, and his previous behaviour, hes already doing it.

These are interesting times we are going through. Not sure that I like it though or that things will improve. Just wait and see what happens, I guess.

Billy thank you for your local insight. That's what I love about this place and social media in general I get to see the opinions of real people.

actually, on the internet nobody knows that i am a dog.

Woof woof!

I must be a dog of the same breed as Billy.

We have made a mistake while in the process of selecting our national leader. The degree of seriousness of the the mistake is yet to be determined. More than a few of us have come to believe that we have fucked ourselves..Royally!

It is of only small comfort that the Leapord will not eat MY face. The voters choice will almost surely lead to more inflation which will affect my own budget unfavorably.  I will manage somehow.  The less fortunate, which is something like 50% of the entire population, will fall onto harder times than ever. They are the ones who live paycheck to paycheck. Not because they are lazy or unworthy but because that is an economic situation in which they cannot escape. The sadist part of that scenario is that the disadvantaged will probably blame their plight on Biden or Obama or Harris. (SIGH)

Ah, but how can you know that just because a fuckening is Royal, that it is any less average than ye regular blue-collar one night stand, in huwhich cash is being exchanged for like... Chlamydia? ;D

Quote from: billy rubin on November 28, 2024, 06:24:11 PMnobody in my government has been any good at it for many years.

Good post. I shall critique a point or two, but do view in in light of me generally approving of your position.

Quotethe rot in my government goes back a long way. money is at the root, and a long practice of de-educating the people, balkanizing the politics, and  devising and supporting an oligarchy that makes the one in russia shrink into insignificance.

I think there is more to it, though for once, not in a complicating sense.

Some people are drawn to money and/or risk and/or power. Among those people, it's not uncommon to be driven and to accept or simply not care about collateral damage on their way to achieving adequate quantities of both or either. People like that are attracted to and generally successful in politics, banking, policing, entrepreneurship and so forth.

As long as they do not accumulate power or wealth unchecked, I think they are a sum-total benefit to society, and a sizeable one at that. This is, I think, precisely where money in American politics comes in. A politician has to (seemingly) work harder to secure the cash flow for that next campaign than they do for those who would vote them in. You could work your ass off actually doing your job, or... You can owe some entity some undisclosed legislative favours and they will "buy" you an office.

Quotebut i see no indication that trump is competent. he added 8 trillion dollars to my countries national debt, he already shut down the government once, hes announced his intentions with respect to domestic and foreign policy. he appointed revisionist judges to the courts, he withdrew from essential foreign treaties.

I agree with raising the debt. While you can successfully live off a stack of credit cards, it is only viable until a repo agent tows your car, changes locks on your house and siezes your bank accounts.

I think the Iran nuclear deal was a bit of a waste. It was a bit like... Well, like imposing sanctions on Russia. They are still likely to end up with half of Ukraine and vote in another Putin when the old one dies of old age.

I don't see the viability of trying to deal with such nations in good faith. Assume that they will always do what is best for the ruling elites. (Actual or perceived "best.")

As for that toothless climate accord thing... Waste of time, paper and jet fuel. Sorry, it just is. You can't compel the world to "save" the world any more than you can compel an alcoholic to resist at an open bar.

Quotetrump told north korea to fear his wrath. kim jong un told him to fuck himself. is the world safer now? north korea continues to improve its ICBMs.

I would argue that the world was safer while he was in office. Trouble with leaders like Trump though, is that once they are out, the opportunists will pounce if they see half a opportunity.

Quotetrump told china to shape up or ship out. china told trump to go fuck himself. the 200 billion dollar soy and corn deal with china went away, and trump took 28 billion dollars of my taxes bailing out american farmers. no socialism there.

No Socialism there, indeed. The farms were not "turned over to the farmers." A good thing, overall.

Quotetrump adores putin. is the world a safer place with trump appeasing that dictator? we have two months until we see trumps master plan for peace in our time. i can predict what it will be.

Yeah, Trump is not ideal for muh Ukraine situation, but then no leader, European or American, is. What needs to happen is a serious discussion about putting NATO boots on Ukrainian soil. It would be costly as hell, but if Russia is not put firmly in its place now, then that price will still be "ours" to pay in the future. Will. Not could or might. I do stand by it.

Quotetheres no need to wait for what he ll do. looking at his cabinent , and his promises, and his previous behaviour, hes already doing it.

Perhaps. Though I think history a couple of generations into the future will be far kinder to Trump's time in office than the Left-leaning First-worlders of today are.

Trump spent a lot of energy by repeatedly telling his people that the Democrats will destroy America. He, and he alone, could fix it was one of his oft repeated absolutes.

Now that he has been elected, he is busily appointing secretaries for the various national interests, like secretary of defense, secretary of labor, secretary of health, secretary of the treasury, etc. The problem is that he is busily appointing shady characters, conspiracy theorists, and unqualified crackpots.  The reasons for selecting the clown car individuals is that all of them have been obliged to pledge their absolutely unwavering loyalty to the newly elected con man. Several of the selections have gone down in flames because it is clear that the U.S. Senate will not approve some, or most, of the the appointments.

The new boss man is hell bent on extracting revenge for the punishment he has endured for such things as rape, extortion, tax fraud. He has been convicted of 34 counts of illegal business practice along with a few million dollars to a woman who he might have raped. He is pissed about all that justice having been served. He is damned sure going to use his power to punish the dispensers of law and justice who caused him to experience hurt to his enormous ego.

There is no joy in Mudville!

May he eat a disease-ridden Mikey-D's burger sometime soon.

We are privileged and cursed to witness a turning point. It seems that close to half of those who bothered to vote in the recent election are in favor of an authoritarian kleptocracy/kakistocracy or are wilfully indifferent to such a potential outcome. The United States has always had some tinges or broad tendencies to authoritarianism, institutionalized greed, and glorified incompetence at various times, but more usually sub-rosa rather than blatant. I believe we are contemplating the distinct possibility of a dismaying new low for the American res publica.


Veering away from that for a moment to the safer harbor of nostalgia. . . I know at least one former member wouldn't be pleased with my usage of "American" there. Yet the US was the first of the colonized lands in that part of the world to achieve statehood. Its precedence is unquestioned in that regard, for better or worse. Yes there were nations that preceded it but they encountered some unpleasant difficulties--they no longer exist. Indeed those difficulties accompanied and were in many cases imposed by the colonizers. It may be an ongoing transgression for the US to call itself "America" but it's also in keeping with the nature of the nation. Not to excuse but to acknowledge.  :sadnod:


I recall many years ago when his political career was just beginning to twitch, watching the asinine now once again president-elect blithering about his serious investigation of Obama's birthplace, promising startling revelations soon to come. He had just got off a plane and the wind was toying with his ludicrous hair. I already knew him to be a vile asshat clown and that performance only deepened my disdain. What glories awaited us all, if we only knew. It looks to be a fraught several years ahead. If the fates smile upon us we will survive them.

Quote from: Recusant on December 05, 2024, 06:19:54 AMI know at least one former member wouldn't be pleased with my usage of "American" there. Yet the US was the first of the colonized lands in that part of the world to achieve statehood. Its precedence is unquestioned in that regard, for better or worse. Yes there were nations that preceded it but they encountered some unpleasant difficulties--they no longer exist. Indeed those difficulties accompanied and were in many cases imposed by the colonizers. It may be an ongoing transgression for the US to call itself "America" but it's also in keeping with the nature of the nation. Not to excuse but to acknowledge.  :sadnod:

Hmm... Inedeed.

To put it in contemporary Eurpoean terms, which nation is the Crimean peninsula a part of? Is it Ukraine, because The Free World(tm) and Ukraine say so, or is it Russian Federation, because they have the monopoly on force there?

Nations rise and fall, as do empires. Sometimes, following a particularly vicious such cycle, toothless laws that impotently demand mutual respect for international borders rise... Then fall to nations who simply don't care because the meager price is, in their leaders' eyes, worth paying.

If your neighbour is eyeing your front yard while mentally building his new barbecue in it, and you oppose the notion... Buy guns. More and better guns than he has, in fact. Failing that, have reliable friends with said guns. If you do not, your grandchildren may know it as his front yard, and... By then, it just is.

"But muh First Nations..." ...Lost when it mattered. Diplomatically and/or militarilly. Their remnants are a part of something else now. And that's about the end of that.

QuoteI recall many years ago when his political career was just beginning to twitch, watching the asinine now once again president-elect blithering about his serious investigation of Obama's birthplace, promising startling revelations soon to come. He had just got off a plane and the wind was toying with his ludicrous hair. I already knew him to be a vile asshat clown and that performance only deepened my disdain. What glories awaited us all, if we only knew. It looks to be a fraught several years ahead. If the fates smile upon us we will survive them.

The United States will survive Trump 2. In fact, I would not be surprised to see it thrive. A leader being an asshole is nothing new - what's new is how overt he is willing to be about it. He may still do OK in keeping his nation out of war, keeping the economy ticking and maintaining an acceptable degree of safety and security for his citizens - all while publicly insulting some other country's prime minister for having mis-matched boobs.

I don't really like to ad-Hitlerum things, but lemme put it this way;

Germany gave us two World Wars, the Holocaust and "all" the great nuclear weapon scientists of the last century. They got bombed to shit and split in half and reunited and now, I eat their sausages, drink their beer and drive their cars, yet here "you" are, "prophecising doom" over a nation with several times the potential of Germany, because the president lies while grabbin' 'em by the pussy. If the US is to fall, it will not be because Donald Trump runs it into the ground - it will be because the American people do.

Quote from: Asmodean on December 05, 2024, 01:05:22 PMHmm... Indeed.

To put it in contemporary Eurpoean terms, which nation is the Crimean peninsula a part of? Is it Ukraine, because The Free World(tm) and Ukraine say so, or is it Russian Federation, because they have the monopoly on force there?

Nations rise and fall, as do empires. Sometimes, following a particularly vicious such cycle, toothless laws that impotently demand mutual respect for international borders rise... Then fall to nations who simply don't care because the meager price is, in their leaders' eyes, worth paying.

If your neighbour is eyeing your front yard while mentally building his new barbecue in it, and you oppose the notion... Buy guns. More and better guns than he has, in fact. Failing that, have reliable friends with said guns. If you do not, your grandchildren may know it as his front yard, and... By then, it just is.

"But muh First Nations..." ...Lost when it mattered. Diplomatically and/or militarilly. Their remnants are a part of something else now. And that's about the end of that.

Agreeing with all points. Despite efforts to ameliorate mass violence, it's still how our species does things.

To call the USA "America" essentially and inaccurately claims the whole hemisphere. It's a manifestation of the bumptious imperialism underlying the ethos of the country. I understand why people find that repugnant but I consider it a reminder of who you're dealing with.

From its beginning the US has been heavily populated with strivers. Leaving the outright murdering thieves and enslavers aside, it's "What's feasible here doesn't suit me--up stakes and off to the New World." Strivers of that sort inherently include a significant element of "I'm gonna get mine, Jack, even if it's yours at the moment" in their population.

The character traits may not be particularly a product of genetics. Nonetheless they'll be passed down culturally and within families. Children tend to emulate their parents; strivers and opportunists often come from strivers and opportunists. There are clear benefits to this as well as serious costs. I think it doesn't hurt to keep that national trait of bumptiousness I mentioned earlier in mind.  ;)     

Quote from: Asmodean on December 05, 2024, 01:05:22 PMThe United States will survive Trump 2. In fact, I would not be surprised to see it thrive. A leader being an asshole is nothing new - what's new is how overt he is willing to be about it. He may still do OK in keeping his nation out of war, keeping the economy ticking and maintaining an acceptable degree of safety and security for his citizens - all while publicly insulting some other country's prime minister for having mis-matched boobs.

I don't really like to ad-Hitlerum things, but lemme put it this way;

Germany gave us two World Wars, the Holocaust and "all" the great nuclear weapon scientists of the last century. They got bombed to shit and split in half and reunited and now, I eat their sausages, drink their beer and drive their cars, yet here "you" are, "prophecising doom" over a nation with several times the potential of Germany, because the president lies while grabbin' 'em by the pussy. If the US is to fall, it will not be because Donald Trump runs it into the ground - it will be because the American people do.

Depends on what is intended with the word "fall." For example the US could become a thriving quasi-theocracy. That is part of the plan of people Trump is appointing to high positions (https://archive.is/FcjP7). If they succeed it's still a world power (unless some zealot starts a nuclear exchange) but will have betrayed its foundations. If you install loons in positions of power the outcome is uncertain at best.

I grudgingly agree with The Asmo's points of view.  We might be capable of surviving the Bubonic Plague as well.

Quote from: Recusant on December 05, 2024, 06:08:36 PMAgreeing with all points. Despite efforts to ameliorate mass violence, it's still how our species does things.

Yeah... Unfortunately, if you account for the world that is, none of the points I've made here are controversial.

QuoteTo call the USA "America" essentially and inaccurately claims the whole hemisphere. It's a manifestation of the bumptious imperialism underlying the ethos of the country. I understand why people find that repugnant but I consider it a reminder of who you're dealing with.

That may be overthinking it a bit. "America" is shorter and easier to say than "The United States [of America]," and "American" is "way better" than "The United Statesian."

People call the Republic of South Africa "South Africa," despite there being other nations in the geographical area that is the south of the African continent. People call the Russian Federation "Russia," despite it having constituent republics. People call The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland "Britain," forgetting the Irish bit. If you go looking for Imperialism, you will certainly find it. I, however, propose that it's becasue "that's just whatcha' call it."     

Quote from: Asmodean on December 05, 2024, 01:05:22 PMDepends on what is intended with the word "fall." For example the US could become a thriving quasi-theocracy. That is part of the plan of people Trump is appointing to high positions (https://archive.is/FcjP7). If they succeed it's still a world power (unless some zealot starts a nuclear exchange) but will have betrayed its foundations. If you install loons in positions of power the outcome is uncertain at best.

Uncertain - sure, though I would not call what you describe a "fall," unless it's a pretty severe case of it. Historically speaking, Iran did not fall when the priesthood seized power, Afghanistan did not fall with the return of Taliban, the UK did not fall from Brexit and so forth. They became, or got on their way towards becoming, nations that a large chunk of their population (or the chunk that "mattered") wanted them to be.

Quote from: Icarus on December 06, 2024, 05:16:01 AMI grudgingly agree with The Asmo's points of view.  We might be capable of surviving the Bubonic Plague as well.

Well, "we" made it thought COVID somehow, so maybe there is the tiniest of hopes that we would survive a mere Plague as well. :smilenod:

Quote from: Recusant on December 05, 2024, 06:19:54 AMWe are privileged and cursed to witness a turning point. It seems that close to half of those who bothered to vote in the recent election are in favor of an authoritarian kleptocracy/kakistocracy or are wilfully indifferent to such a potential outcome.

Some of them don't think anthropic climate troubles is a thing, why would they think a kakistocracy is a thing?  Even though I would contend it doesn't have a red squiggly, so it must be.

Quote from: Recusant on December 05, 2024, 06:19:54 AMVeering away from that for a moment to the safer harbor of nostalgia. . . I know at least one former member wouldn't be pleased with my usage of "American" there. Yet the US was the first of the colonized lands in that part of the world to achieve statehood. Its precedence is unquestioned in that regard, for better or worse. Yes there were nations that preceded it but they encountered some unpleasant difficulties--they no longer exist. Indeed those difficulties accompanied and were in many cases imposed by the colonizers. It may be an ongoing transgression for the US to call itself "America" but it's also in keeping with the nature of the nation. Not to excuse but to acknowledge.  :sadnod:

So you're acknowledging the "may be" ongoing transgression on behalf of HAF, it's about time, maybe we could have moved on but I'm really getting good at this victim thing, I got an internet degree in it, so you're not going to just squirm out of your role, you and your type are the victimisers, get used to it.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on December 06, 2024, 11:18:10 AMyou and your type are the victimisers, get used to it.

Ooh! Ooh! The Asmo hereby proclaims Himself-self to be the Divine Victimiser-in-Chief. :smilenod:

I'd like to make a serious point though. Persistent victimhood is not given - it's nourished by the would-be victim and, quite often, their very "support structure." If someone stole ten bucks* from me, there and then, I would be the victim of theft. I would not still be that several life-altering decisions later, however. By then, my life is on me again.

Sure, you could have terrible things happen to you, leading to trauma and disability and whatever else dire straits may be available. You may deal with that. Spite your fate, as it were. You may try and fail and give up trying - then try something else. Or you can curl up and die. Or you may do the current year equivalent of that and make your life all about victimhood points for random bullshit from random people on the Internet, who get off on their own e-virtue.

Don't want to be a victim? Put in some effort. Again and again, until you are not. If nothing else, you will be seen as someone who's trying, and probably even respected for that by "any-one" whose opinion of you is worth taking into account. DO want to be a victim? Expect to be mercilessly trolled for it by many among those very same people.

*This does scale up from my few dollars to somebody violating the sanctity of my bottom or lopping off my left leg. Just trying to be somewhat family-friendly here.

America, Mexico. Here's an interesting tidbit. I live in the United States of America. Mexicans live in Los Estados Unidos de Mexico- the United States of Mexico. I vote we say "USA" instead of America. It's easier to both say and spell, and leaves little doubt as to what ones means.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on December 06, 2024, 11:18:10 AMSo you're acknowledging the "may be" ongoing transgression on behalf of HAF, it's about time, maybe we could have moved on but I'm really getting good at this victim thing, I got an internet degree in it, so you're not going to just squirm out of your role, you and your type are the victimisers, get used to it.

I can't and don't claim to be writing on behalf of this site, except when using moderator red.  ;) 

When I was but a youth my reading of history and knowledge that some of my ancestors came to America in the colonial era lead me to the conclusion that I exist as the beneficiary of fairly efficient victimisers. As such I suppose I can be painted with the same brush; some of my thoughts and actions may echo that heritage. To acknowledge and try to avoid oppressive expressions may not be enough to escape this heritage, and I made my peace with that.  :smokin cool:

Quote from: Dark Lightning on December 06, 2024, 03:52:35 PMAmerica, Mexico. Here's an interesting tidbit. I live in the United States of America. Mexicans live in Los Estados Unidos de Mexico- the United States of Mexico. I vote we say "USA" instead of America. It's easier to both say and spell, and leaves little doubt as to what ones means.

OK, but what demonym to agree with that? In contrast to "American," "USAian" seems clumsy, but I suppose it could serve.

I'm just tossing it out there. I'm certainly not important enough to dictate even what we're having for dinner today. Though in a sense, I am, since I'll be making it.  :D  "America" is deep enough in common usage that we're pretty much cast in concrete with it.

Quote from: Recusant on December 06, 2024, 05:06:04 PMTo acknowledge and try to avoid oppressive expressions may not be enough to escape this heritage, and I made my peace with that.  :smokin cool:

Words matter as far as their context. without one, they are merely letters on a page or ordered vibrations in the air. I propose that avoiding "oppressive expressions" does nothing to escape that heritage you would see forsaken.

If you use "American" in the sense of "This continent is mine and the only reason I do not invade your so-called nation in order to claim it is because, frankly, it is too much of a shit hole," then maybe don't be a family-friendly euphemism for Richard.

If, however, by "American," you mean "a citizen of the United States of America," and you are being understood as such, then there really is no problem, is there? And even if you are not being understood as such - it took me seconds to type out an explanation. It would take little more to utter it verbally.

America the Depraved as I now call it.

The people had one job and failed it miserably.

On my birthday this year, I am distraught, worried about the future. I have no avenue to escape this country, nor do I know if any country is going to be safe. I just have to hope that my state will resist the Christofascists and hold strong.

January 20th I'll be thoroughly distracted with starting a training program and starting physical therapy. But even with those distractions it's going to be rough to keep my mind off of the doom.

i just tell people i was born in the chickasaw nation and let them figure it out

my grandparents were married in indian territory, in the same town.

now its oklahoma, in the home of the brave.

Quote from: Harmonie on December 26, 2024, 04:31:35 PMAmerica the Depraved as I now call it.

The people had one job and failed it miserably.

On my birthday this year, I am distraught, worried about the future. I have no avenue to escape this country, nor do I know if any country is going to be safe. I just have to hope that my state will resist the Christofascists and hold strong.

January 20th I'll be thoroughly distracted with starting a training program and starting physical therapy. But even with those distractions it's going to be rough to keep my mind off of the doom.

I wish you many happy returns to this auspicious point in our orbit of Sol! As for the god-bothering/grifting/authoritarian bastards, don't let them grind you down. You've got the right idea I think--try to live a good life in spite of the dismaying vagaries of the republic.

Harmonie, Recusant has the right advice. I add my encouragement as well.  If it matters, you can know that you have friends in South Africa, England, Tasmania, Norway, California, Florida, and several other places as well. Not many people can make that boast.

A  shamefully corrupted Latin version of Recusant's advice is Nulle Carborundum Bastardus.  (don't let the bastards grind you down)

Quote from: Harmonie on December 26, 2024, 04:31:35 PMAmerica the Depraved as I now call it.

The people had one job and failed it miserably.

On my birthday this year, I am distraught, worried about the future. I have no avenue to escape this country, nor do I know if any country is going to be safe. I just have to hope that my state will resist the Christofascists and hold strong.

January 20th I'll be thoroughly distracted with starting a training program and starting physical therapy. But even with those distractions it's going to be rough to keep my mind off of the doom.

Chin up.. It's only 4 years. How bad can it get?  :o

Seriously though. Just buy popcorn and watch the circus. He's a clown. The sensible Republicans and there are many, can't stand him either.

:smilenod:

Your nation has its problems. Donald Trump may or may not be one, depending on your angle and what you are hoping for, but then every nation has something worthy of criticising, and yet every nation has people living their lives as best they can.

Who knows, perhaps the Democrats will have a good, long look in the mirror and make themselves easier to elect the next time around. Until then, grab that popcorn by whatever passes for a pussy in a ball of expanded maize seed and wait for the fireworks... Or wish the powers that be the best of luck and resume normal activities. Both seem better-adjusted ways of approaching the coming political season than "all-consuming" and/or illness-inducing Trump-derangement.

If Bill Maher could do it, then so can you. :smilenod:

Quote from: Asmodean on January 02, 2025, 08:12:17 AM:smilenod:

Your nation has its problems. Donald Trump may or may not be one, depending on your angle and what you are hoping for, but then every nation has something worthy of criticising, and yet every nation has people living their lives as best they can.

Who knows, perhaps the Democrats will have a good, long look in the mirror and make themselves easier to elect the next time around. Until then, grab that popcorn by whatever passes for a pussy in a ball of expanded maize seed and wait for the fireworks... Or wish the powers that be the best of luck and resume normal activities. Both seem better-adjusted ways of approaching the coming political season than "all-consuming" and/or illness-inducing Trump-derangement.

If Bill Maher could do it, then so can you. :smilenod:

For the first time in my life I voted in the last national election. Trump is the better deal, the other was no deal.

My view of Trump is probably belaboured enough around these threads, but the long and short of it is that I don't think he is "literally God," nor do I think that he's "literally worse than Hitler." That position is based on his first term, during which I have changed my opinion from some very mild Trump-derangement following his 2016 victory, through "meh... He's OK. Bought me a new used car through some cleverly placed stock options" to "he's mostly remarkable for the quality (or, lack thereof) of shit that comes out of his mouth. Other than that, just another businessman-turned-bureaucrat."

He's a old loud-mouth politician, who has his positive and negative aspects.

If the positive aspects of a Trump term in the White House out-weigh the negative in a given voter's subjective opinion, then he's overall worth voting for. If not - not.

From there, you can expand to "is he better than the competition?" Well, if the competition's main selling point is "I be a alternative to Orange Man Bad," then personally, I lean towards "yes." At times wild and/or wildly-ambitious though they may be, at least Trump has some ideas on the table.

I'm not American, and so I do not vote there, nor do I try to tell the American people who to vote for. with that in mind, for me, the main selling point of Kamala was that she was probably better for the Ukraine situation. Europe is fucking toothless and happens to need the United States to prevent Russia from achieving victory. Conversely, Trump is likely to leave Israel alone to try and get the job done in their regional war - even help Israel do it well, if all the stars aligned just right. That said, my world, much like the United States and the lives of her citizens, keeps ticking - as it would have, regardless of the outcome.

Yeah, it may be that my "best case scenario" for Ukraine has shifted from defeating Russia to plodding through the next four years somehow, then seeing what happens, but... Such is life. For some people, the price of milk is a far more important issue than some expensive foreign war - and legitimately so. I prioritise as I do because I can afford it, and that reality is not lost on me.

Actually I did vote in a presidential election in the past. I've been around to long I guess, but voted for Kennedy back in the day whilst IN the USMC and haven't since. I was in service under Ike and Kennedy. I voted for Trump because of to maintain Americanism over globalism, and to preserve the constitution. Whilst not perfect it's the better deal to me.  :)

Quote from: Old Seer on January 02, 2025, 08:36:58 PMI voted for Trump because of to maintain Americanism over globalism

This is something I fully understand and support. Americans, just like everyone else, should vote with their own best interests in mind. When those interests happen to coincide to some degree with the interests of others - well, excellent! When not - to each, their own.

[/quote]
This is something I fully understand and support. Americans, just like everyone else, should vote with their own best interests in mind. When those interests happen to coincide to some degree with the interests of others - well, excellent! When not - to each, their own.
[/quote]

During the recent presidential election, voters did NOT vote in their own best interests. They did vote for absurd promises that would affect their lives in a decidedly negative way.  Trumps promise to lower taxes sounds good but there are more downsides than good ones when the nations debt continues to grow almost exponentially. .....What the Hell? only a few more trillion dollars of debt? What could that hurt? 

Deport all those immigrants that are doing 30% of all construction work....What could that hurt?  Who is going to harvest our fruits and vegetables when we deport all those Latinos?

The US has critical need for more ships for both commercial and military uses. Shipyards in the US are years behind because they cannot hire enough workers with the needed skills. Surprise, Mexicans, Guatamalans, venezuelans and the rest can weld, paint, pipe fit, and more.  They have plenty of other needed skills and many of them already work at shipyards. Should we further cripple the industry by deporting them? Does anyone of the voters know how much it will cost to deport millions of undocumented immigrants?  The answer is billions. But we can cut taxes, Right?

Best interests ?  in a pigs ass!

Well said, man.  :thumb:

What I don't understand about America is their interference in British politics.
Like "president" Musk commenting on internal affairs which should be handled by the Westminster government.
His comment on child grooming gangs in the Manchester area has now influenced the leader of the opposition into calling for a full enquiry.

thats mostly a musk thing, not something american.

he sticks his face through any hole in the fence he notices.

Indeed. Felon Husk doesn't represent the US, inasmuch as he isn't even an appointed worker thereof, let alone an elected one. He represents himself.

Quote from: Old Seer on January 02, 2025, 08:36:58 PMActually I did vote in a presidential election in the past. I've been around to long I guess, but voted for Kennedy back in the day whilst IN the USMC and haven't since. I was in service under Ike and Kennedy. I voted for Trump because of to maintain Americanism over globalism, and to preserve the constitution. Whilst not perfect it's the better deal to me.  :)

Shame on you. I'm done trying to reason with people like you who clearly have no idea what "preserving the Constitution" means. The man tried to lead an insurrection and is planning to sic the Justice Department on politicians and journalists he doesn't like. He wants to ignore the 14th Amendment to that Constitution you say he wants to "preserve". His Supreme Court justices overturned several protections we used to have in the Constitution. There is no one who is a bigger danger to the Constitution or country than him. Your cognitive dissidence is truly a sight to behold, and one that will get many (most?) of us hurt.

Quote from: Firebird on January 06, 2025, 01:45:18 AMShame on you. I'm done trying to reason with people like you who clearly have no idea what "preserving the Constitution" means. The man tried to lead an insurrection and is planning to sic the Justice Department on politicians and journalists he doesn't like. He wants to ignore the 14th Amendment to that Constitution you say he wants to "preserve". His Supreme Court justices overturned several protections we used to have in the Constitution. There is no one who is a bigger danger to the Constitution or country than him. Your cognitive dissidence is truly a sight to behold, and one that will get many (most?) of us hurt.

It goes with the other baloney peddled by dear Old Seer though. Despite the claims of deep insight we have what appears to be an unequivocal example of internalizing MAGA hogwash. Suppression of cognitive dissonance is close to the heart of it.

Good to see you stopping by, Firebird!  :blue smiley:

Quote from: Recusant on January 06, 2025, 02:52:20 AMGood to see you stopping by, Firebird!  :blue smiley:

Thanks Recusant. I still lurk here occasionally when I find the time.

Quote from: Icarus on January 03, 2025, 11:05:18 PMDuring the recent presidential election, voters did NOT vote in their own best interests.

A lot of them did. there were those who, for example, voted for Harris because they want "The Fed" to provide them with the right to abortion. There were others, who voted for Trump because they wanted "The Fed" to stay out of it.

both are two sides of the same "hot" political issue, and both represent someone's own best interest.

Translate that to a multiple variable analysis, and it comes down to sacrificing some things in favour of others, which is pretty much what passes for the "common good" in a democracy.

My point is that you are the arbiter of your own best interests - yours and your dependants. If someone voted against your best interests, that does not mean that they did not vote for their.

QuoteThey did vote for absurd promises that would affect their lives in a decidedly negative way.  Trumps promise to lower taxes sounds good but there are more downsides than good ones when the nations debt continues to grow almost exponentially. .....What the Hell? only a few more trillion dollars of debt? What could that hurt?

Yeah, one does ought to shrink the scope of government in tact with lowering taxes for it to be sustainable with no added national revenue streams. Personally, I don't think a Department Of Govbernment Efficiency is the way to go - it's a bit like in corporate networking; creating a new portal to sort out all them other portals is naught but a cheap and cheerful way of passing the problem on to someone else down the line.

Still, at least the ambition is kind-of there-ish. If you do think that the government is bloated and/or that your taxes are mis-spent on foreign conflicts and managing foreign nationals illegally within your borders, and your alternatives are Trump or Harris, then I, for one, would think that Trump would be the more obvious choice among them.

QuoteDeport all those immigrants that are doing 30% of all construction work....What could that hurt?  Who is going to harvest our fruits and vegetables when we deport all those Latinos?

...On a more serious note, this does make me roll my eyes a bit. Citizens, legal residents and legal foreign workers will swing them hammers, pick them grapes and scrub them toilets.

QuoteThe US has critical need for more ships for both commercial and military uses. Shipyards in the US are years behind because they cannot hire enough workers with the needed skills. Surprise, Mexicans, Guatamalans, venezuelans and the rest can weld, paint, pipe fit, and more.

...and yet, as you just said, years behind on their demand. Perhaps weldy Guatemalans are not the solution to what ails your shipbuilding industry? Why can they not compete for the jobs on par with other industries, which even manage to grow?

QuoteThey have plenty of other needed skills and many of them already work at shipyards. Should we further cripple the industry by deporting them? Does anyone of the voters know how much it will cost to deport millions of undocumented immigrants?  The answer is billions. But we can cut taxes, Right?

Sure. One can deport those who are in the country illegally AND cut the taxes. Of course, to do it "right," one would also have to shore up border security in order to turn the former into as much of a one-time expense as possible.

You could start with everyone convicted of additional crimes. If that goes well, have another look at those whose only known crime is "national trespassing."

QuoteBest interests ?  in a pigs ass!

I'm sure more ass on pigs is in a pig farmer's best interest.