A note of warning for Christians who are looking at this post: I am writing because I need to express what happened to me/what Christians have done to me. If I water down my words and feelings so that no one will be offended, I will not gain anything by writing, and I will not be true to myself and my pain.
I am not writing for Christians, and I am not writing to be "fair" or "unfair" to any group. As the only person who experienced these events, I am stating what happened. If you do not want to read such a post, please do not feel that you must. I am looking to continue my healing process--nothing more.
----------- -----------
"We need to convert Catholics, Jews and Muslims so they can go to Heaven."
--Said to my class in the late 1970s by my Sunday School teacher
"Gays go to Heaven, but Catholics, Jews and Muslims don't."
--Said to me in 2004 by a lesbian minister
"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."
("The more things change, the more they remain the same.")
----------- -----------
It is August 3, 2012 – my 47th birthday. I have locked the door and put on the answering machine so I don't have to deal with relatives who want to remind me that I am a year closer to death and still outside God's grace, as they put it. This may sound pathetic, but my birthday gift to myself is a day away from Christian proselytizing and other assorted nonsense. Only the job I love got me out of the house earlier in the day. The rest of the day is for my cat and me.
When I was a child, my birthday was yet another day for me to be ridiculed by Christians in my extended family. Of course, they would always say "Happy birthday" and sing when the cake came out. Ironically, I was still Christian then; I just wasn't good enough for anyone. Later, when I joined a religious cult in an attempt to "cure" my homosexuality and also do what I thought God wanted me to do, birthdays were considered as "pagan" as Christmas and Easter. "True Christians" did not celebrate them.
Birthdays still give me the heebie jeebies, although my friends know I will always celebrate theirs in any way they wish as long as they give me my wish and leave me alone on my birthday.
It is not just a birthday issue. Anything associated with Christianity continues to give me the heebie jeebies. My earliest Christian memories are of intimidation, fear, and hellfire. I have always had an inquisitive mind, and on assessment tests I have always scored above the 95th percentile in "ideaphoria." I have also always been a bookworm and did not care that others my age frowned on it. But in my church, being creative and having a love for truth and learning caused a young Christian many problems. I was mentally and physically abused whenever I said or did what came to me naturally even though I merely wanted to understand Jesus better. This is why I insist that my university students think for themselves and feel free to disagree with me as often as they wish. This is why I also urge them to read banned books.
Back to church school in the 1970s. When we learned about The Book of Job as an example of God's love, I said that the character of God as presented in this book was not positive. Why didn't God have faith in himself and his own creations? Why did he have to "prove" to the devil that he was superior, the way an insecure person does? If he was the master of all, he did not need to prove anything to the devil. I also said that God's giving Job new children did not make up for his having needlessly killed the original ones. People are attached to those they love, and loved ones can never be replaced, I explained. Of course, my punishment was severe.
I was twelve.
I so badly wanted to love and be loved by God. I also wanted my church to be a refuge, a place where love would give me a respite from the classmates and extended family that hated and bullied me. Unfortunately, God was king of the bullies. A few years later I prayed and prayed with a sixteen-year-old's fervor, trying to appease this malevolent deity. I asked that he show me what he wanted me to do. I was then recruited into a religious cult (the late Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God) by a friend in high school. I thought that was where God wanted me to be, and it took years for me to get out.
Moving ahead to university in the 1980s—and a secular university, I might add... In the required philosophy course, where the professor could teach anything he or she wanted, mine chose to teach proofs of the existence of God and then, wouldn't you know it, The Book of Job. I reiterated my childhood objections, although in far more sophisticated language. And, in an earlier class, I had said that the Early Modern European proofs of God's existence were disingenuous since the philosophers in question had already committed themselves to belief in God and, for religious reasons, could only come to such a proof regardless of what any evidence said. To say the least, I was not popular in this class.
And mind you, I was still somewhat Christian then. Agnosticism was still a few years away, and atheism was still many years away.
Where was the love in the name of which Christians profess their devotion? Why was I the one who could never be loved?
Of course, Christians reading this will present the tired argument of true Christians vs. false Christians, which is a logical fallacy. Everything was done to me by false Christians, they will claim, and I therefore have no beef with Christianity. I cannot even begin to explain how insulting that argument is. I was abused by those who read a book full of dashing the heads of infants against rocks and smiting whole cities. A set of divisive beliefs unifies all Christian thought, and all Christians claim to be true Christians--unlike all the other Christians who also claim to be true Christians.
It took me until 2004 to finally toss out all religious abuse from my life and start fighting back; as an agnostic I was forever trying to reconcile myself with Christianity (which, I admit, is not what agnosticism is about).
Now it is 2012, and I am still in great mental pain. I have accomplished much in my life: I am a university professor well liked by his students; I speak three languages and am learning a fourth; I am a published writer; I am paid to do voice over work. More important than any of this, I do volunteer work with mentally ill teens and twentysomethings, and I help take care of my parents (both of whom are seniors). And yet, in the eyes of most of my extended family (fortunately not my parents and sister) and most Christians, I am worthless and am going to hell. This is why I struggle with self-esteem and feelings of worthlessness on a regular basis, this despite my accomplishments. Christians tell me that self-worth issues come from my rejection of Jesus; I say they come from 47 years of having Jesus' hate, as emulated by his followers, hurled at me. As a youngster, I was told again and again what a "wretched bag of putrid meat" I was (and all people were), and how undeserving I was (and all people were) of God's love or life. How, I ask, can anyone who has that drilled into him year after year have a sense of self-worth?
Perhaps now it is clear why I reacted so negatively to that (Christian) "Dirt" person on this board when he gave his views on gay issues and sin in my introductory thread/in the section of the board reserved for light discussion--and on my second day here. And on an --atheist-- board. Is there not an ample supply of Christian boards?
I suppose that is as good a transition as any for my gay journey... I came out of the closet as a gay man just before I turned 23 in the summer of 1988, but it took until 1990 for me to so much as kiss another man. Anything else took much longer. I have since engaged in sexual acts--making out and other things (without penetration) that culminated in mutual orgasms--but I have never "gone all the way." I have never had a relationship either. After being betrayed by so many Christians who claimed to love me and by the supposed creator of all things, I find it nearly impossible to trust others. Even at my age people express sexual interest in me, but I throw myself into my work and hobbies. It has been years since I have done anything sexual. I do very much enjoy teaching, reading, learning, science fiction, travel, my parents, my sister, my cat, my friends... But I am also aware that something is missing. (No, Christians, not Jesus. Heard it before, bored with the argument.)
Far from being the immoral gay non-Christian that Jesus' followers paint me as, on two occasions, when I was in my late 20s, I had the opportunity to bed two different teenage boys on two different occasions--but did not. Instead, I had a long talk with each one after being approached, saying that sex and being gay were wonderful, but that they did not have to use sex to to feel loved or make a friend. I don't want any gay kid to think he has to spread his legs to be liked. (I don't want any woman or straight guy to think that either.) I won't lie; part of me regrets saying no. On both occasions I had just met them, and I could have done just about anything to them—especially to the 14-year-old. But I was already a teacher, and I thought about my own students. It might just be sex to me, but to a boy that age it could mean much more and lead to dangerous behavior. I can only hope that my saying no out of respect for them (as I had put it) had some positive effect on them. Needless to say, I never saw either one again.
Mind you, I am not painting myself as a saint. I do as many nasty things as the next person because I am human. I don't believe in sin, but I don't believe in saints either.
So here I am, posting this biographical piece I have been promising. Recently, I have been quite stressed in my volunteer work since I have to answer to an abusive Christian woman with no respect for me. If it were any other aspect of my life, I would just quit. However, if I do, the gay kids in the program (most of whom are also Christian) will have no one standing up for them. "Christians can say what they want about gays, but gays can't say anything about Christians." That is a quote—and did I mention that this woman is a licensed psychologist?
Did I mention that in the 1980s, the first therapist I went to for help with my own OCD told me that if I was gay I would get AIDS and die? What a thing to say to someone with OCD (and hence unrealistic fears).
Do these people not read their own DSM?
Eventually I did get the help I needed. I was too scared to go to an atheist since I still believed in hell at the time, so I went to the Jewish Board of Family and Children Services and saw a Jewish therapist who was gay-positive, did not care that I was not Jewish, and knew how to treat OCD. There is a reason I love the Yiddish language and everything (secular) Jewish to this day...
You have probably figure out that one of the reasons this Christian supervisior stresses me out so much is my OCD. I learned to manage it in behavior therapy years ago, and I still take medication (only 25% of what I originally needed). I won't say that Christianity caused my OCD since OCD and other disorders run in my family, but I will say that Christianity exacerbated it. There is no reason for it to have been so bad, and every OCD issue I have ever faced comes from Christianity, especially The Book of Revelation. I no longer believe in any of that, but I am sure those of you with OCD or who have children with OCD (per the OCD thread on this board) know that does not matter. OCD is what it is, and logic does not alter it. Having gone through years of OCD's ravages before I got help a long time ago, I won't abandon young people with disorders. So now I am stuck in a situation that is unhealthy for me.
An atheist helping young Christians out of... love. But I am still going to hell, of course.
Thanks for sharing and opening up. I certainly hope that it helps with your healing process.
Thank you very much for sharing that with us TWC. It was painful to read at times, but I am truly impressed with how you carry yourself and how you overcame such horrible abuse to become the person you are today. The kids you are helping are lucky to have you. That woman may be ignorant and not understand how much good you do, but many of us do. I know many people close to me who are gay, and I've seen how important a supportive enivronment is for them, especially at that age.
And I do agree with you about Christianity, and pretty much all organized religion. It's done much, much more harm than good in the world, and your story is one example why. No need to be afraid to express that here.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 04, 2012, 04:27:43 AM
It is August 3, 2012 – my 47th birthday.
First off, happy belated birthday! ;D
QuoteNow it is 2012, and I am still in great mental pain. I have accomplished much in my life: I am a university professor well liked by his students; I speak three languages and am learning a fourth; I am a published writer; I am paid to do voice over work. More important than any of this, I do volunteer work with mentally ill teens and twentysomethings, and I help take care of my parents (both of whom are seniors). And yet, in the eyes of most of my extended family (fortunately not my parents and sister) and most Christians, I am worthless and am going to hell. This is why I struggle with self-esteem and feelings of worthlessness on a regular basis, this despite my accomplishments. Christians tell me that self-worth issues come from my rejection of Jesus; I say they come from 47 years of having Jesus' hate, as emulated by his followers, hurled at me. As a youngster, I was told again and again what a "wretched bag of putrid meat" I was (and all people were), and how undeserving I was (and all people were) of God's love or life. How, I ask, can anyone who has that drilled into him year after year have a sense of self-worth?
I don't mean to put your sense of self worth that has been cultivated by some christians over the years into such dry terms, but you have to see the process behind that for what it is. Christianity dehumanises people so that the only way that they can be what they want to be is through the religion. It's a very common and effective
cult tactic that keeps people in cults. Telling people that they're born 'broken' and that a certain cult based on no evidence has the answer or remedy is a weird thing, but it is powerful for some. I imagine especially in the case of impressionable children or people who might easily think compulsively over it. In most cases the people caught up in that sort of thinking don't even realise what they're doing, or notice how it just doesn't fit with their idea of their loving god. I don't know if it will help with your OCD by shedding new light on it all, but you could look up the types of psychological manipulation that cults use, and that are the foundations of many of the ways christianity manipulates people even these days.
Next time your extended family calls to annoy you, give them a few words. Putting that off won't solve the problem, especially since it is a bit more difficult to simply close the door for good on family.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 04, 2012, 04:27:43 AM
A note of warning for Christians who are looking at this post: I am writing because I need to express what happened to me/what Christians have done to me. If I water down my words and feelings so that no one will be offended, I will not gain anything by writing, and I will not be true to myself and my pain.
I am not writing for Christians, and I am not writing to be "fair" or "unfair" to any group. As the only person who experienced these events, I am stating what happened. If you do not want to read such a post, please do not feel that you must. I am looking to continue my healing process--nothing more.
----------- -----------
"We need to convert Catholics, Jews and Muslims so they can go to Heaven."
--Said to my class in the late 1970s by my Sunday School teacher
"Gays go to Heaven, but Catholics, Jews and Muslims don't."
--Said to me in 2004 by a lesbian minister
"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."
("The more things change, the more they remain the same.")
----------- -----------
It is August 3, 2012 – my 47th birthday. I have locked the door and put on the answering machine so I don't have to deal with relatives who want to remind me that I am a year closer to death and still outside God's grace, as they put it. This may sound pathetic, but my birthday gift to myself is a day away from Christian proselytizing and other assorted nonsense. Only the job I love got me out of the house earlier in the day. The rest of the day is for my cat and me.
When I was a child, my birthday was yet another day for me to be ridiculed by Christians in my extended family. Of course, they would always say "Happy birthday" and sing when the cake came out. Ironically, I was still Christian then; I just wasn't good enough for anyone. Later, when I joined a religious cult in an attempt to "cure" my homosexuality and also do what I thought God wanted me to do, birthdays were considered as "pagan" as Christmas and Easter. "True Christians" did not celebrate them.
Birthdays still give me the heebie jeebies, although my friends know I will always celebrate theirs in any way they wish as long as they give me my wish and leave me alone on my birthday.
It is not just a birthday issue. Anything associated with Christianity continues to give me the heebie jeebies. My earliest Christian memories are of intimidation, fear, and hellfire. I have always had an inquisitive mind, and on assessment tests I have always scored above the 95th percentile in "ideaphoria." I have also always been a bookworm and did not care that others my age frowned on it. But in my church, being creative and having a love for truth and learning caused a young Christian many problems. I was mentally and physically abused whenever I said or did what came to me naturally even though I merely wanted to understand Jesus better. This is why I insist that my university students think for themselves and feel free to disagree with me as often as they wish. This is why I also urge them to read banned books.
Back to church school in the 1970s. When we learned about The Book of Job as an example of God's love, I said that the character of God as presented in this book was not positive. Why didn't God have faith in himself and his own creations? Why did he have to "prove" to the devil that he was superior, the way an insecure person does? If he was the master of all, he did not need to prove anything to the devil. I also said that God's giving Job new children did not make up for his having needlessly killed the original ones. People are attached to those they love, and loved ones can never be replaced, I explained. Of course, my punishment was severe.
I was twelve.
I so badly wanted to love and be loved by God. I also wanted my church to be a refuge, a place where love would give me a respite from the classmates and extended family that hated and bullied me. Unfortunately, God was king of the bullies. A few years later I prayed and prayed with a sixteen-year-old's fervor, trying to appease this malevolent deity. I asked that he show me what he wanted me to do. I was then recruited into a religious cult (the late Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God) by a friend in high school. I thought that was where God wanted me to be, and it took years for me to get out.
Moving ahead to university in the 1980s—and a secular university, I might add... In the required philosophy course, where the professor could teach anything he or she wanted, mine chose to teach proofs of the existence of God and then, wouldn't you know it, The Book of Job. I reiterated my childhood objections, although in far more sophisticated language. And, in an earlier class, I had said that the Early Modern European proofs of God's existence were disingenuous since the philosophers in question had already committed themselves to belief in God and, for religious reasons, could only come to such a proof regardless of what any evidence said. To say the least, I was not popular in this class.
And mind you, I was still somewhat Christian then. Agnosticism was still a few years away, and atheism was still many years away.
Where was the love in the name of which Christians profess their devotion? Why was I the one who could never be loved?
Of course, Christians reading this will present the tired argument of true Christians vs. false Christians, which is a logical fallacy. Everything was done to me by false Christians, they will claim, and I therefore have no beef with Christianity. I cannot even begin to explain how insulting that argument is. I was abused by those who read a book full of dashing the heads of infants against rocks and smiting whole cities. A set of divisive beliefs unifies all Christian thought, and all Christians claim to be true Christians--unlike all the other Christians who also claim to be true Christians.
It took me until 2004 to finally toss out all religious abuse from my life and start fighting back; as an agnostic I was forever trying to reconcile myself with Christianity (which, I admit, is not what agnosticism is about).
Now it is 2012, and I am still in great mental pain. I have accomplished much in my life: I am a university professor well liked by his students; I speak three languages and am learning a fourth; I am a published writer; I am paid to do voice over work. More important than any of this, I do volunteer work with mentally ill teens and twentysomethings, and I help take care of my parents (both of whom are seniors). And yet, in the eyes of most of my extended family (fortunately not my parents and sister) and most Christians, I am worthless and am going to hell. This is why I struggle with self-esteem and feelings of worthlessness on a regular basis, this despite my accomplishments. Christians tell me that self-worth issues come from my rejection of Jesus; I say they come from 47 years of having Jesus' hate, as emulated by his followers, hurled at me. As a youngster, I was told again and again what a "wretched bag of putrid meat" I was (and all people were), and how undeserving I was (and all people were) of God's love or life. How, I ask, can anyone who has that drilled into him year after year have a sense of self-worth?
Perhaps now it is clear why I reacted so negatively to that (Christian) "Dirt" person on this board when he gave his views on gay issues and sin in my introductory thread/in the section of the board reserved for light discussion--and on my second day here. And on an --atheist-- board. Is there not an ample supply of Christian boards?
I suppose that is as good a transition as any for my gay journey... I came out of the closet as a gay man just before I turned 23 in the summer of 1988, but it took until 1990 for me to so much as kiss another man. Anything else took much longer. I have since engaged in sexual acts--making out and other things (without penetration) that culminated in mutual orgasms--but I have never "gone all the way." I have never had a relationship either. After being betrayed by so many Christians who claimed to love me and by the supposed creator of all things, I find it nearly impossible to trust others. Even at my age people express sexual interest in me, but I throw myself into my work and hobbies. It has been years since I have done anything sexual. I do very much enjoy teaching, reading, learning, science fiction, travel, my parents, my sister, my cat, my friends... But I am also aware that something is missing. (No, Christians, not Jesus. Heard it before, bored with the argument.)
Far from being the immoral gay non-Christian that Jesus' followers paint me as, on two occasions, when I was in my late 20s, I had the opportunity to bed two different teenage boys on two different occasions--but did not. Instead, I had a long talk with each one after being approached, saying that sex and being gay were wonderful, but that they did not have to use sex to to feel loved or make a friend. I don't want any gay kid to think he has to spread his legs to be liked. (I don't want any woman or straight guy to think that either.) I won't lie; part of me regrets saying no. On both occasions I had just met them, and I could have done just about anything to them—especially to the 14-year-old. But I was already a teacher, and I thought about my own students. It might just be sex to me, but to a boy that age it could mean much more and lead to dangerous behavior. I can only hope that my saying no out of respect for them (as I had put it) had some positive effect on them. Needless to say, I never saw either one again.
Mind you, I am not painting myself as a saint. I do as many nasty things as the next person because I am human. I don't believe in sin, but I don't believe in saints either.
So here I am, posting this biographical piece I have been promising. Recently, I have been quite stressed in my volunteer work since I have to answer to an abusive Christian woman with no respect for me. If it were any other aspect of my life, I would just quit. However, if I do, the gay kids in the program (most of whom are also Christian) will have no one standing up for them. "Christians can say what they want about gays, but gays can't say anything about Christians." That is a quote—and did I mention that this woman is a licensed psychologist?
Did I mention that in the 1980s, the first therapist I went to for help with my own OCD told me that if I was gay I would get AIDS and die? What a thing to say to someone with OCD (and hence unrealistic fears).
Do these people not read their own DSM?
Eventually I did get the help I needed. I was too scared to go to an atheist since I still believed in hell at the time, so I went to the Jewish Board of Family and Children Services and saw a Jewish therapist who was gay-positive, did not care that I was not Jewish, and knew how to treat OCD. There is a reason I love the Yiddish language and everything (secular) Jewish to this day...
You have probably figure out that one of the reasons this Christian supervisior stresses me out so much is my OCD. I learned to manage it in behavior therapy years ago, and I still take medication (only 25% of what I originally needed). I won't say that Christianity caused my OCD since OCD and other disorders run in my family, but I will say that Christianity exacerbated it. There is no reason for it to have been so bad, and every OCD issue I have ever faced comes from Christianity, especially The Book of Revelation. I no longer believe in any of that, but I am sure those of you with OCD or who have children with OCD (per the OCD thread on this board) know that does not matter. OCD is what it is, and logic does not alter it. Having gone through years of OCD's ravages before I got help a long time ago, I won't abandon young people with disorders. So now I am stuck in a situation that is unhealthy for me.
An atheist helping young Christians out of... love. But I am still going to hell, of course.
I found your eloquent and unsparing account both moving but also uplifting. You have had much to contend with and still do, given the legacy of your upbringing and your famly's continuing hostility and belittlement, and yet you lead a life guided by compassion and concern for others. I hope you can even yet conquer your feelings of worthlessness and find a measure of self- acceptance and ease of mind.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on August 04, 2012, 04:47:51 AM
Thanks for sharing and opening up. I certainly hope that it helps with your healing process.
Thank you. Me too.
Quote from: Firebird on August 04, 2012, 06:33:50 AM
Thank you very much for sharing that with us TWC. It was painful to read at times, but I am truly impressed with how you carry yourself and how you overcame such horrible abuse to become the person you are today. The kids you are helping are lucky to have you. That woman may be ignorant and not understand how much good you do, but many of us do. I know many people close to me who are gay, and I've seen how important a supportive enivronment is for them, especially at that age.
And I do agree with you about Christianity, and pretty much all organized religion. It's done much, much more harm than good in the world, and your story is one example why. No need to be afraid to express that here.
Thank you for the kind words. I have quite a temper, actually, and I have learned over the years to keep it in check. (Well, most of the time...)
I think perhaps I did not stress enough that while my parents and sister are Christians, they did not abuse me the way others in the family have; they also accept me as gay and as an atheist. That is probably why I am not much worse than I could have been. They too have suffered because of religion, although they remain part of it. I overlook a lot that they say and do for that reason.
I also had my super-hero comic books and science fiction when I was young, and while living in fantasy land may not be healthy it did save me from suicidal thoughts and give me a sense of hope and a desire to help others. It is no coincidence that I remain such an adament
Star Trek, comic and science fiction fan today--and that I find ways to bring some of that into my academic lessons.
Support is so important, but there are only two gay people I can go to for it: my closest friend of many years and another good friend. Unfortunately, my closest friend has been teaching in the Middle East for two years (although we e-mail and Skype regularly), and the other friend is in California for the summer but will be back in September. The other gays I know are --GASP!-- Christians. That's another reason I am on this board.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 04, 2012, 07:10:46 AM
I don't mean to put your sense of self worth that has been cultivated by some christians over the years into such dry terms, but you have to see the process behind that for what it is. Christianity dehumanises people so that the only way that they can be what they want to be is through the religion. It's a very common and effective cult tactic that keeps people in cults. Telling people that they're born 'broken' and that a certain cult based on no evidence has the answer or remedy is a weird thing, but it is powerful for some. I imagine especially in the case of impressionable children or people who might easily think compulsively over it. In most cases the people caught up in that sort of thinking don't even realise what they're doing, or notice how it just doesn't fit with their idea of their loving god. I don't know if it will help with your OCD by shedding new light on it all, but you could look up the types of psychological manipulation that cults use, and that are the foundations of many of the ways christianity manipulates people even these days.
Next time your extended family calls to annoy you, give them a few words. Putting that off won't solve the problem, especially since it is a bit more difficult to simply close the door for good on family.
I like what you wrote very much. Out of respect for my parents and their need for stable extended family interaction, I cannot tell certain people what I would like to tell them. All I can do is find ways to continue to be too busy to have anything to do with relatives I despise. And many of these relatives have died off. Only some are left, vocal as they are.
But yes, because OCD makes me think in black and white terms AND because I was in a cult in which thinking was in black and white terms, I must always remind myself that life is gray. Sometimes I am more successful and sometimes less successful.
Quote from: En_Route on August 04, 2012, 08:30:51 AM
I found your eloquent and unsparing account both moving but also uplifting. You have had much to contend with and still do, given the legacy of your upbringing and your famly's continuing hostility and belittlement, and yet you lead a life guided by compassion and concern for others. I hope you can even yet conquer your feelings of worthlessness and find a measure of self- acceptance and ease of mind.
...and I found your post very uplifting. But I think it would be better to say
I try my best to "lead a life guided by compassion and concern for others." As I have expressed, I don't want to paint myself as a saint. I have a very selfish and petty side too.
I have gotten much better with self-esteem over the years, but I do still have a long way to go.
Happy belated birthday, TWC. A heartbreaking story, but now you're clear of religion things can only get better.
QuoteOf course, Christians reading this will present the tired argument of true Christians vs. false Christians, which is a logical fallacy. Everything was done to me by false Christians, they will claim, and I therefore have no beef with Christianity.
That's so annoying. Like the religious conflicts all over the world and all through history - not true religion, they say. But it's no good arguing with them.
A very interesting and insightful read TWC, thank you for sharing.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 04, 2012, 04:27:43 AM
...when I was in my late 20s,...I could have done just about anything to them—especially to the 14-year-old
Seriously, you do need to avoid the underage ones, it won't be a good look.
It seems maybe you are focusing too much on the sex part. Just enjoy being in someone's company. If you are feeling uncomfortable getting intimate then don't. If it feels natural and the stars are aligned, well...
But until then, there is no need to put pressure on yourself.
Quote
So here I am, posting this biographical piece I have been promising. Recently, I have been quite stressed in my volunteer work since I have to answer to an abusive Christian woman with no respect for me.
Sounds tough, you want to do something of value and yet someone is making it extremely difficult for you, based on their own shortcomings. Difficult situation indeed.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 04, 2012, 04:27:43 AM
Did I mention that in the 1980s, the first therapist I went to for help with my own OCD told me that if I was gay I would get AIDS and die?
In the 80's not much was known about AIDS, there was global panic. But still, this therapist sounds like an ignorant douche
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 04, 2012, 04:27:43 AM
An atheist helping young Christians out of... love.
Maybe this is the cure???. Christians come in all shapes and sizes, these young Christians you are keen to help out. Focus on what it is that you like about them. But please remember, your worth is not how others define you, it is how you define yourself.
Take a good look at yourself in the mirror each morning, describe who you see, try not to taint your thoughts on what others say. Your inner voice needs to be your own.
A manager of mine came up with a gem, he called it the elevator pitch. Imagine you hopped into the elevator and pressed the 10th floor, next minute the CEO walks into the elevator, you have ten floors to sell yourself. You need to be succinct and to the point.
I use this to build up my own confidence from time to time, I try and sell myself to myself. I need to as I often have low self-esteem. Pick out your selling points, I'm sure you will be impressed when you see them in a small paragraph. Nobody can take that away from you. Nobody!
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 04, 2012, 04:27:43 AM
But I am still going to hell, of course.
I think you would hate Heaven, especially if it's full of Christians. Hell is the place for you, I'm going there, its gonna be a blast.
But seriously, for those Christians taking "delight" in declaring your impending journey to Hell. There is something wrong with them. They aren't to be taken seriously. They are delusional, sadistic and arrogant. Surely most Christians aren't like this, but sadly some are. The issue is clearly them, not you. You ought to pity them for their foolishness, they are certainly locked into the prison of their own skewed thoughts. For this their world is very limited, they cannot see the beauty of diversity and acceptance that many others can enjoy.
Be confident in who you are. It is only you who defines your worth, not a group of people ganging up on you. They are sad and pathetic.
Know yourself, be true to yourself, be proud, nothing else matters!
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 04, 2012, 09:28:49 AM
As I have expressed, I don't want to paint myself as a saint. I have a very selfish and petty side too.
I have gotten much better with self-esteem over the years, but I do still have a long way to go.
From my (very limited) experience, it is those who question their goodness of character that winds up being the more respectable person. It's a willingness to look at your flaws and working hard at overcoming it that makes one great. Those who think they are perfect never are, because they never give themselves the chance to develop as a human being. And from your post it is quite obvious that you have a level of restraint and willpower that most don't.
Thank you for sharing. :)
Quote from: OldGit on August 04, 2012, 10:10:22 AM
Happy belated birthday, TWC. A heartbreaking story, but now you're clear of religion things can only get better.
QuoteOf course, Christians reading this will present the tired argument of true Christians vs. false Christians, which is a logical fallacy. Everything was done to me by false Christians, they will claim, and I therefore have no beef with Christianity.
That's so annoying. Like the religious conflicts all over the world and all through history - not true religion, they say. But it's no good arguing with them.
Thank you,
OldGit!
Oh, could I say a mouthful about "true religion"... But that's a topic for a future mammoth post. ;)
Quote from: Tank on August 04, 2012, 10:30:35 AM
A very interesting and insightful read TWC, thank you for sharing.
And thank you and
Recusant for the advice in the other thread. I did not want to cause trouble with this post, and I am you made board spirit clear to me. I am also glad the post was well received.
Quote from: Stevil on August 04, 2012, 11:55:06 AM
Seriously, you do need to avoid the underage ones, it won't be a good look.
It seems maybe you are focusing too much on the sex part. Just enjoy being in someone's company. If you are feeling uncomfortable getting intimate then don't. If it feels natural and the stars are aligned, well...
But until then, there is no need to put pressure on yourself.
Absolutely. I mentioned the underage ones to show that Christians were wrong in their assessment of me. Actually, at this stage in my life anyone below 35 is probably too young for me as a partner--although non-sexual friendship knows no bounds.
Yes, I do concentrate on sex too much, but I am a very, very sexual person even though I don't have sex. I had not even hit puberty when I had major crushes on men. Of course, I did not know what sex was then and could not even imagine it, so all I thought about was cuddling with the guy when both of us were shirtless. I also thought about sleeping in the guy's arms, but it was literal sleeping (as in snoring).
Most gay guys don't get this next story; in fact, only my closest friend does. About 15 years ago I was sitting on a Manhattan bus during heavy rain. One of the best looking men I have ever seen got on the bus and stood in front of where I was sitting. Water dropped from his hair and fell onto my bare forearm. I almost passed out... That was the best sex ever.
Yes, I am far too sexual. At least I no longer have to beat myself up over it in the name of Jesus.
Quote from: Stevil on August 04, 2012, 11:55:06 AM
Sounds tough, you want to do something of value and yet someone is making it extremely difficult for you, based on their own shortcomings. Difficult situation indeed.
Thank you for actually hearing what I was saying. Most people say "Just quit and tell her off. They'll find someone else to take care of those kids." (Imagine if they find someone else like her!)
Ironically, in her mind I have told her off many times. Once I tried to explain that I respected her idea of true Christians but would prefer she not use it in speaking to me since we did not view the term the same way. When she questioned me, I explained that every group calls itself true Chistians and all other groups Pharisees. She immediately started screaming something to the tune of how dare I call her a Pharisee. --SIGH!--
Quote from: Stevil on August 04, 2012, 11:55:06 AM
But please remember, your worth is not how others define you, it is how you define yourself.
I know that intellectually, but I have a problem believing it on an emotional level. This is part of what I struggle with (and I am sure OCD, already exacerbated by Christianity, exacerbates it further.)
Quote from: Stevil on August 04, 2012, 11:55:06 AM
I think you would hate Heaven, especially if it's full of Christians. Hell is the place for you, I'm going there, its gonna be a blast.
I sure would hate Heaven!
One of my favorite quotes: "Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company." -- Mark Twain
Quote from: Synapse on August 04, 2012, 01:06:55 PM
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 04, 2012, 09:28:49 AM
As I have expressed, I don't want to paint myself as a saint. I have a very selfish and petty side too.
I have gotten much better with self-esteem over the years, but I do still have a long way to go.
From my (very limited) experience, it is those who question their goodness of character that winds up being the more respectable person. It's a willingness to look at your flaws and working hard at overcoming it that makes one great. Those who think they are perfect never are, because they never give themselves the chance to develop as a human being. And from your post it is quite obvious that you have a level of restraint and willpower that most don't.
Thank you! It sounds as if your experience is not as limited as you think! :)
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 04, 2012, 07:41:46 PM
Yes, I am far too sexual.
Just one correction here.
You have a sexual aspect to your being, just as most everyone else does as well.
I think Christianity focuses too much on sex, they make it out to be some sacred activity fraught with the sins of (lust, desire, selfishness...) unless of course you are in the missionary position and trying to make a Christian baby (lots of Christian babies).
Accept your sexuality, it does not define you, and it is not something to fight against. Sex is a natural part of life, and if you think about it, we spend very little time in our lives actually having sex.
What you describe sounds very similar to the domestic abuse "power and control theory", even though it's not exactly the same thing as what you described there certainly are parallels. Do any of these techniques sound similar to what you experienced: coercion and threats, intimidation, emotional abuse, isolation, minimizing, denying and blaming, using children, economic abuse, and male privilege? If so look at the theory, if not look at it anyway as it may help with understanding the actions behind those that caused the psychological abuse in the name of Christianity and hopefully remove some of the damage that was done.
I have come to the conclusion that the Abrahamic religions use these techniques of power and control masterfully, they're part of religious law, recited by preachers/priest/imams,etc and reenacted by elders and peers generation after generation. I first stumbled across the thought about a month ago when watching a program about domestic violence and the women and men that were the victims basically mirrored word for word the plethora of introductions that have come from a religious background on this forum. The power and control theory of physiological domestic abuse stood out most of all to me when I started researching the subject, and also that the patriarchal system has a huge influence over the actions and that the treatment may be in the same field. I have only really just started looking into it myself out of interest and might be totally wrong, I may be seeing the evidence because I am looking for it yet missing other issues that may make the concept irrelevant. As religious abuse seems to be accepted in all society's I think its about time that stopped and show people what is really happening and provide help for those such as yourself.
If I'm not mistaken there are a few people who specialise in religious/cult emotional and psychological abuse therapy. I don't really know just how different it is from behavioral therapy, or if it is BT with more focus on religious or cult indoctrination issues.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 04, 2012, 10:59:28 PM
If I'm not mistaken there are a few people who specialise in religious/cult emotional and psychological abuse therapy. I don't really know just how different it is from behavioral therapy, or if it is BT with more focus on religious or cult indoctrination issues.
Yeah there is but usually deals with the extremes. I'm talking about the very nature of the religion, even the Christian's who are the "I want to show that we aren't all like the fundamentalists" is an example of the power and control theory in action, those actions come in a form of the minimizing, denying and blaming techniques.
I'm glad that you feel comfortable enough here to post such a personal document, T.W.Contradiction. Thank you for sharing your story. No doubt the Christian woman is trying to do good (by her lights), and unfortunately her "good" may not be all that good. She gets to feel self-righteous because she's ostensibly doing good, and while working with her sounds like an unpleasant experience, it's great that you're there for those kids.
Quote from: Stevil link=topic=10364.msg184363#msg184363 date=
Sex is a natural part of life, and if you think about it, we spend very little time in our lives actually having sex.
But quite a lot of time thinking about having it.
Quote from: Stevil on August 04, 2012, 08:29:00 PM
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 04, 2012, 07:41:46 PM
Yes, I am far too sexual.
Just one correction here.
You have a sexual aspect to your being, just as most everyone else does as well.
I think Christianity focuses too much on sex, they make it out to be some sacred activity fraught with the sins of (lust, desire, selfishness...) unless of course you are in the missionary position and trying to make a Christian baby (lots of Christian babies).
Accept your sexuality, it does not define you, and it is not something to fight against. Sex is a natural part of life, and if you think about it, we spend very little time in our lives actually having sex.
If you have a strong sex drive that's just how you are built. If it doesn't actually disrupt your everyday life then why worry about it? There is huge variation in human sexuality and the idea of a right and/or normal intensity of appetite or orientation is just a self- persecuting myth.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 04, 2012, 10:59:28 PM
If I'm not mistaken there are a few people who specialise in religious/cult emotional and psychological abuse therapy. I don't really know just how different it is from behavioral therapy, or if it is BT with more focus on religious or cult indoctrination issues.
You are correct, and it is very, very important for people who have been through abusive religion. Most specialists concentrate on cults specificially--at least on what mainstream society considers cults: the Moonies, the Hari Krishnas, Scientology, and my old cult, The Worldwide Church of God, to name only a few--although now WWCG is no longer considered a cult. --SIGH--. The problem is that many of those therapists are theists. Granted, a good number belong to very, very liberal denominations and will not harm or try to convert the patient, but still...
This is why I insisted on not working with a Christian when I got help for my OCD and had already had a disasterous encounter with a homophobic therapist. I got help in the Jewish Board of Family and Children Services Cult Clinic at the same time that I got help for OCD. And they charged me sliding scale fees since I was only a student with little money at the time.
I understand that Catholic Charities can also be helpful, and that one does not have to be Catholic or even a believer to go there. Many of the therapists are not Catholic, and they are supposedly not allowed to prosthelytize. I have heard good things about them. Maybe it is a good place. I don't know.
Whatever the case, there is a specific protocol in helping someone leave a cult (and, I assume, any abusive religion) that is neither BT nor psychoanalysis but something unique to the field. One of the pioneers was Steven Hassan, himself a former Moonie and currently a certified counselor and mind control expert.
Quote from: Crow on August 04, 2012, 11:11:48 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 04, 2012, 10:59:28 PM
If I'm not mistaken there are a few people who specialise in religious/cult emotional and psychological abuse therapy. I don't really know just how different it is from behavioral therapy, or if it is BT with more focus on religious or cult indoctrination issues.
Yeah there is but usually deals with the extremes. I'm talking about the very nature of the religion, even the Christian's who are the "I want to show that we aren't all like the fundamentalists" is an example of the power and control theory in action, those actions come in a form of the minimizing, denying and blaming techniques.
I hear you and agree completely.
Unfortunately, we freethinkers are such a small group (relatively speaking) and have so little real political clout that we need the liberal churches, synagogues and mosques on or side and cannot alienate them. We may not agree with them, but many of their members have suffered as much as we have in abusive extremist groups. Also, when a pastor speaks up against religious abuse, he or she will, unfortunately, be taken more seriously than us by mainstream society. We need that clout so that help can be available to all. At least many of the liberal religious types are indeed on our side, more or less.
A sad world.
Quote from: Crow on August 04, 2012, 10:53:18 PM
Do any of these techniques sound similar to what you experienced: coercion and threats, intimidation, emotional abuse, isolation, minimizing, denying and blaming, using children, economic abuse, and male privilege?
Absolutely!
Quote from: Recusant on August 04, 2012, 11:31:34 PM
I'm glad that you feel comfortable enough here to post such a personal document, T.W.Contradiction. Thank you for sharing your story. No doubt the Christian woman is trying to do good (by her lights), and unfortunately her "good" may not be all that good. She gets to feel self-righteous because she's ostensibly doing good, and while working with her sounds like an unpleasant experience, it's great that you're there for those kids.
I surprised myself by holding back very little. (There are some things only one person, my closest friend, knows.)
Oh yes, that Christian woman specializes in self-righteousness and how she has suffered in the name of Jesus.
Thank you for the kind words!
Quote from: Stevil on August 04, 2012, 08:29:00 PM
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 04, 2012, 07:41:46 PM
Yes, I am far too sexual.
Just one correction here.
You have a sexual aspect to your being, just as most everyone else does as well.
I think Christianity focuses too much on sex, they make it out to be some sacred activity fraught with the sins of (lust, desire, selfishness...) unless of course you are in the missionary position and trying to make a Christian baby (lots of Christian babies).
Accept your sexuality, it does not define you, and it is not something to fight against. Sex is a natural part of life, and if you think about it, we spend very little time in our lives actually having sex.
Quote from: En_Route on August 05, 2012, 12:27:54 AM
If you have a strong sex drive that's just how you are built. If it doesn't actually disrupt your everyday life then why worry about it? There is huge variation in human sexuality and the idea of a right and/or normal intensity of appetite or orientation is just a self- persecuting myth.
It's ironic that I say similar things in my volunteer work. Some folks have had terrible sexual experiences or have been abused. Some have fetishes for the sex or sexes to which they are attracted (which I assure them are normal and nothing to be ashamed of), and some have fetishes that cross the boundaries of their sexual orientation (also perfectly normal). Some have more sex in a month than many will have in a lifetime, and others (men as well as woman) want to wait until they are married. Most fall in the middle of that last bit.
Remember that I deal with straight, bisexual and gay guys... Having done this volunteer work since 2004, I can say that I have learned more about things I thought anatomically impossible, female anatomy, and fetishes that would give me nightmares if I thought about them too deeply than I have ever wanted to know. I now know why therapists say, "Don't be embarrassed. I've already heard it all."
O.K., I admit that some of the not-so-scary fetishy things sound like they might be fun once in a while. Not that I've tried them, but if I ever did get a boyfriend... Just sayin'.
Even saying that is quite a breakthrough for me. I think the problem, as always, is that I am patient and gentle with people I work with but impatient and self-hating when I deal with myself. The yoke of religion remains even though I am an atheist. It is very hard to break, though I do not believe it is impossible to break.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 05, 2012, 06:56:18 PM
Quote from: Stevil on August 04, 2012, 08:29:00 PM
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 04, 2012, 07:41:46 PM
Yes, I am far too sexual.
Just one correction here.
You have a sexual aspect to your being, just as most everyone else does as well.
I think Christianity focuses too much on sex, they make it out to be some sacred activity fraught with the sins of (lust, desire, selfishness...) unless of course you are in the missionary position and trying to make a Christian baby (lots of Christian babies).
Accept your sexuality, it does not define you, and it is not something to fight against. Sex is a natural part of life, and if you think about it, we spend very little time in our lives actually having sex.
Quote from: En_Route on August 05, 2012, 12:27:54 AM
If you have a strong sex drive that's just how you are built. If it doesn't actually disrupt your everyday life then why worry about it? There is huge variation in human sexuality and the idea of a right and/or normal intensity of appetite or orientation is just a self- persecuting myth.
It's ironic that I say similar things in my volunteer work. Some folks have had terrible sexual experiences or have been abused. Some have fetishes for the sex or sexes to which they are attracted (which I assure them are normal and nothing to be ashamed of), and some have fetishes that cross the boundaries of their sexual orientation (also perfectly normal). Some have more sex in a month than many will have in a lifetime, and others (men as well as woman) want to wait until they are married. Most fall in the middle of that last bit.
Remember that I deal with straight, bisexual and gay guys... Having done this volunteer work since 2004, I can say that I have learned more about things I thought anatomically impossible, female anatomy, and fetishes that would give me nightmares if I thought about them too deeply than I have ever wanted to know. I now know why therapists say, "Don't be embarrassed. I've already heard it all."
O.K., I admit that some of the not-so-scary fetishy things sound like they might be fun once in a while. Not that I've tried them, but if I ever did get a boyfriend... Just sayin'.
Even saying that is quite a breakthrough for me. I think the problem, as always, is that I am patient and gentle with people I work with but impatient and self-hating when I deal with myself. The yoke of religion remains even though I am an atheist. It is very hard to break, though I do not believe it is impossible to break.
It's a commonplace now but yet encompasses a fundamental and potentially transformative truth to stress the importance of demonstrating understanding and compassion to yourself.We are all the chance outcome of inheritance and circumstance and an internal circuitry that makes a travesty of the claims for intelligent design; nobody can avoid blundering around, chasing false trails, kidding ourselves, hurting those who are close to us, the whole panoply of fuck- ups that are the lot of every biped on the planet.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 05, 2012, 06:56:18 PM
The yoke of religion remains even though I am an atheist. It is very hard to break, though I do not believe it is impossible to break.
OK, I'm no therapist, so I don't know if this is good or bad advice.
Maybe try some baby steps.
Blaspheme is a good one.
When you are home alone, say out loud that Jesus is not god. That Jesus death meant nothing, blood sacrifices are grotesque, stupid ignorant superstition.
Maybe mention that Jesus was gay, he probably was you know, surrounding himself with an all male apostles.
If it is going to rack you will guilt then don't do it. But if you do it, and then find that bad things don't happen, you don't get turned into a pillar of salt, she bears don't come out of the wood work to maul you, lightening doesn't strike you where you stand, the world doesn't get drowned in a flood. Maybe intentionally putting yourself into "Hell" can take away all your worries about whether your future actions will send you to hell or not. If this is a fear of yours (I Dont Know if it is). You can take away this emotional blackmail.
TWC, thank you for sharing with us. It made me sad to read about all of the abuse that you have suffered, but also happy and proud of you that you have weathered the storms and dedicated yourself to being a compassionate and giving person.
Quote from: En_Route on August 05, 2012, 07:10:30 PM
It's a commonplace now but yet encompasses a fundamental and potentially transformative truth to stress the importance of demonstrating understanding and compassion to yourself.We are all the chance outcome of inheritance and circumstance and an internal circuitry that makes a travesty of the claims for intelligent design; nobody can avoid blundering around, chasing false trails, kidding ourselves, hurting those who are close to us, the whole panoply of fuck- ups that are the lot of every biped on the planet.
This is one of the best things I have read in weeks. Maybe in years...
It is exactly what I feel but have never put together in a short paragraph. My hat is off to you!
Quote from: Stevil on August 05, 2012, 08:00:13 PM
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 05, 2012, 06:56:18 PM
The yoke of religion remains even though I am an atheist. It is very hard to break, though I do not believe it is impossible to break.
OK, I'm no therapist, so I don't know if this is good or bad advice.
Maybe try some baby steps.
Blaspheme is a good one.
When you are home alone, say out loud that Jesus is not god. That Jesus death meant nothing, blood sacrifices are grotesque, stupid ignorant superstition.
Maybe mention that Jesus was gay, he probably was you know, surrounding himself with an all male apostles.
If it is going to rack you will guilt then don't do it. But if you do it, and then find that bad things don't happen, you don't get turned into a pillar of salt, she bears don't come out of the wood work to maul you, lightening doesn't strike you where you stand, the world doesn't get drowned in a flood. Maybe intentionally putting yourself into "Hell" can take away all your worries about whether your future actions will send you to hell or not. If this is a fear of yours (I Dont Know if it is). You can take away this emotional blackmail.
It is
excellent advice,
Stevil, and it is actually something I do as part of my own BT (behavior therapy) after having had real BT for my OCD many years ago. I have gone further than what you said, though. Try "Jesus can suck my gay dick." That sums up how I feel about religion and homophobia. I have also worked "your fucking Jesus" and "You've got Jesus so far up your ass that..." into shouting matches with theists who don't leave me alone. No, THAT probably is not healthy--for them--as it confirms all their stereotypes of me and reinforces their religion. But I needed to say it and did.
And mind you, I never used to curse before. I mean never. (I have been told I am really scary when I yell, which surprises me since I don't see myself as scary at all. Heck, I'm a pacifist. But I also won't take crap any more.)
The ol' OCD does sometimes come around and talk about unpardonable sins and how I really am going to hell for that. (Yes,
Stevil, the hell issue is still something my OCD focuses on.) But as I know, agree with OCD (not because it is right but because that is the only way to disarm it) and don't let whatever thoughts or emotions that get stirred up interfere with whatever I need to do. I can enjoy myself even when I feel OCD stress.
For those who do not know about OCD... Imagine you are in the middle of teaching a lesson and suddenly a wave of anxiety hits you and says "You don't know what you are talking about, and your students are laughing at you because they know you are an idiot" or "A tsunami/earthquake/hurricane/nuclear explosion/terrorist attack is about to occur and you are going to die in agony." In the old days I thought this was all real. Today I know it feels real, but it is not. I just keep teaching and ignore it, as real as if feels. (It took me a long time to learn to do that, and now it is second nature. But these 'attacks' are and will always be a daily occurance, just something I have to live with. I am usually at my funniest and cracking my class up the most when my OCD is bad, as I will not let OCD interfere with the--dare I say it?--SACRED duty of teaching my students.)
Now, with such a mindset, you can imagine what it is to deal with religious guilt.
The more I say "Yes, I'm going to hell. So what?" and "Yes, I will die in a disaster in five minutes, but first I have to finish explaining indirect object pronouns," the more I weaken OCD and control my own destiny.
Religion = societal OCD.
Quote from: Ali on August 05, 2012, 08:13:59 PM
TWC, thank you for sharing with us. It made me sad to read about all of the abuse that you have suffered, but also happy and proud of you that you have weathered the storms and dedicated yourself to being a compassionate and giving person.
:) :) :) :D :D :D
Again, I try my best to be compassionate and giving. Often I succeed, but sometimes I am all too human.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 05, 2012, 08:24:57 PM
For those who do not know about OCD... Imagine you are in the middle of teaching a lesson and suddenly a wave of anxiety hits you and says "You don't know what you are talking about, and your students are laughing at you because they know you are an idiot" or "A tsunami/earthquake/hurricane/nuclear explosion/terrorist attack is about to occur and you are going to die in agony." In the old days I thought this was all real. Today I know it feels real, but it is not. I just keep teaching and ignore it, as real as if feels. (It took me a long time to learn to do that, and now it is second nature. But these 'attacks' are and will always be a daily occurance, just something I have to live with. I am usually at my funniest and cracking my class up the most when my OCD is bad, as I will not let OCD interfere with the--dare I say it?--SACRED duty of teaching my students.)
How is this different from an anxiety or panic attack? Are they mingled with OCD or another thing such as post traumatic stress disorder or something?
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 05, 2012, 08:39:08 PM
How is this different from an anxiety or panic attack? Are they mingled with OCD or another thing such as post traumatic stress disorder or something?
OCD, anxiety/panic attack, GAD (generalized anxiety disorder), phobic disorder and a number of other disorders all fall into the same family: anxiety disorders. Manifestation differs, but treatment tends to be the same. Behavior therapy and, when necessary, medication are the best treatment.
Also, OCD and other anxiety disorders can co-occur with bipolar disorder, ADD, ADHD, Asperger's, borderline personality disorder, and a host of other issues. Some form of depression often accompanies OCD and other anxiety disorders.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 05, 2012, 08:32:57 PM
Quote from: Ali on August 05, 2012, 08:13:59 PM
TWC, thank you for sharing with us. It made me sad to read about all of the abuse that you have suffered, but also happy and proud of you that you have weathered the storms and dedicated yourself to being a compassionate and giving person.
:) :) :) :D :D :D
Again, I try my best to be compassionate and giving. Often I succeed, but sometimes I am all too human.
I think you may be the most polite (currently active) user we have on here :D
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on August 05, 2012, 08:44:56 PM
I think you may be the most polite (currently active) user we have on here :D
I can only answer that with something I told a student last week. He remarked about how patient I was with him and the other students. I said, "This may be the only place in the world where I am patient. I am normally an impatient person. If you told my mother I was patient, she would fall off her chair laughing."
-------------------------
I am concerned that, because I come from an ex-Christian background, I do the Christian thing by painting myself in such bright colors. (Well, we gays do like rainbows...) One day I will probably be rude and get moderator red thrown at me. I don't want everyone to be shocked. Because of what I do and what I profess, people often have a double standard for me, and if I act human some people consider it inexcusable.
So... Let me give an example of how petty/vindictive I can be...
Way back in 1992, when I was a twentysomething working in a university in a non-teaching job, I was given my two week notice. Basically, I had been fired for being uncooperative. I simply would not do anything that hurt students, and I had issues with authority figures since I had just come out of a cult.
I knew that my boss would stay in his office until I left, and so, three days before my last, I stayed alone in the common office until 1:00 AM playing computer games. His office was next to the common office, and unknown to him we in the common office could always hear his bellowing voice when he was on the phone. He kept calling his wife, who was waiting for him at a social event he was looking forward to, to tell her that he thought I would be leaving soon. Eventually, he had to tell her he could not make it at all, and he sent out for dinner to be delivered from a local greasy spoon diner. Then I heard him talking to someone about how he needed to go home and sleep before the big day the next day. "Why is he taking so long?"
The only reason I waited until 1:00 AM and did not stay all night was that the building closed at that time. And I made sure he knew I was merely playing computer games.
Had he merely told me that he did not trust me in the building alone and wanted me to leave, I would have done so. But he was still playing the nice guy and pretending to be on my side. All I wanted was the satisfaction of hearing that he did not trust me alone even after all I had done. He didn't say it, and I didn't budge.
Besides, I already had a letter of recommendation from a dean who hated him...
There are many other examples of what a bastard I can be--and how I enjoy it.
Now you see the real me. (Pity we don't have a devil smiley face to put here.)
Just don't dare me to ban you. It can have exactly the desired effect.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 05, 2012, 09:29:54 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on August 05, 2012, 08:44:56 PM
I think you may be the most polite (currently active) user we have on here :D
I can only answer that with something I told a student last week. He remarked about how patient I was with him and the other students. I said, "This may be the only place in the world where I am patient. I am normally an impatient person. If you told my mother I was patient, she would fall off her chair laughing."
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I am concerned that, because I come from an ex-Christian background, I do the Christian thing by painting myself in such bright colors. (Well, we gays do like rainbows...) One day I will probably be rude and get moderator red thrown at me. I don't want everyone to be shocked. Because of what I do and what I profess, people often have a double standard for me, and if I act human some people consider it inexcusable.
So... Let me give an example of how petty/vindictive I can be...
Way back in 1992, when I was a twentysomething working in a university in a non-teaching job, I was given my two week notice. Basically, I had been fired for being uncooperative. I simply would not do anything that hurt students, and I had issues with authority figures since I had just come out of a cult.
I knew that my boss would stay in his office until I left, and so, three days before my last, I stayed alone in the common office until 1:00 AM playing computer games. His office was next to the common office, and unknown to him we in the common office could always hear his bellowing voice when he was on the phone. He kept calling his wife, who was waiting for him at a social event he was looking forward to, to tell her that he thought I would be leaving soon. Eventually, he had to tell her he could not make it at all, and he sent out for dinner to be delivered from a local greasy spoon diner. Then I heard him talking to someone about how he needed to go home and sleep before the big day the next day. "Why is he taking so long?"
The only reason I waited until 1:00 AM and did not stay all night was that the building closed at that time. And I made sure he knew I was merely playing computer games.
Had he merely told me that he did not trust me in the building alone and wanted me to leave, I would have done so. But he was still playing the nice guy and pretending to be on my side. All I wanted was the satisfaction of hearing that he did not trust me alone even after all I had done. He didn't say it, and I didn't budge.
Besides, I already had a letter of recommendation from a dean who hated him...
There are many other examples of what a bastard I can be--and how I enjoy it.
Now you see the real me. (Pity we don't have a devil smiley face to put here.)
Hardly. The idea of the permanent, imternally consistent, indivisible self is I think a perception we are endowed with because of ithe evolutionary advantage it confers. At the very least ! i think you will accept that as a person one evolves and grows or shrinks) and that humans are subject to contradictory impulses, often driven by motivations and needs that are occluded from ourselves. So this incident is not the distillation or essence of TWC. The fact that you cite it as such ( even if not entirely seriously) may say something.
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 09:43:39 PM
Just don't dare me to ban you. It can have exactly the desired effect.
Only the bastard should be banned. The sweet, humble, salt of the earth teacher (ha!) wants to stay. :)
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 09:43:39 PM
Just don't dare me to ban you. It can have exactly the desired effect.
Yes, better to dare him not to ban you and you'll be here for life.
Quote from: En_Route on August 05, 2012, 10:00:18 PM
Hardly. The idea of the permanent, imternally consistent, indivisible self is I think a perception we are endowed with because of ithe evolutionary advantage it confers. At the very least ! i think you will accept that as a person one evolves and grows or shrinks) and that humans are subject to contradictory impulses, often driven by motivations and needs that are occluded from ourselves. So this incident is not the distillation or essence of TWC. The fact that you cite it as such ( even if not entirely seriously) may say something.
Agreed. The main reason I cite it (besides thinking it will amuse all of you) is that I want all of you to see I am no goody two-shoes. My halo went up in flames long ago.
Also... Posting this sort of thing is good behavior therapy for me. In Christianity I had to be so good all the time and so ashamed of even minor infractions. (My OCD had a field day with that.) I also went to great lengths to deny that I did 'bad' things. Now I delight in being a full human being, one who loves science fiction and knows the bad half cannot be separated from the good. (Why am I thinking about
A Clockwork Orange now?)
And also... I am having entirely too much fun on the board today; after all my serious posts it is nice to post a few like this. I am doing a lot of boring work today, and it is delightful to jump on and off this board. Still, the sooner I get the boring stuff done, the sooner I can read some comic books. (Don't get me started on my students' shock upon me reading and thoroughly enjoying super-hero and Archie comic books...)
Quote from: En_Route on August 05, 2012, 10:04:53 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 09:43:39 PM
Just don't dare me to ban you. It can have exactly the desired effect.
Yes, better to dare him not to ban you and you'll be here for life.
Good goddess! The board and I are engaged, and we haven't so much as dated. When did I say lifetime commitment? :D
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 05, 2012, 09:29:54 PM
So... Let me give an example of how petty/vindictive I can be...
Way back in 1992, when I was a twentysomething working in a university in a non-teaching job, I was given my two week notice. Basically, I had been fired for being uncooperative. I simply would not do anything that hurt students, and I had issues with authority figures since I had just come out of a cult.
I knew that my boss would stay in his office until I left, and so, three days before my last, I stayed alone in the common office until 1:00 AM playing computer games. His office was next to the common office, and unknown to him we in the common office could always hear his bellowing voice when he was on the phone. He kept calling his wife, who was waiting for him at a social event he was looking forward to, to tell her that he thought I would be leaving soon. Eventually, he had to tell her he could not make it at all, and he sent out for dinner to be delivered from a local greasy spoon diner. Then I heard him talking to someone about how he needed to go home and sleep before the big day the next day. "Why is he taking so long?"
The only reason I waited until 1:00 AM and did not stay all night was that the building closed at that time. And I made sure he knew I was merely playing computer games.
Had he merely told me that he did not trust me in the building alone and wanted me to leave, I would have done so. But he was still playing the nice guy and pretending to be on my side. All I wanted was the satisfaction of hearing that he did not trust me alone even after all I had done. He didn't say it, and I didn't budge.
Besides, I already had a letter of recommendation from a dean who hated him...
There are many other examples of what a bastard I can be--and how I enjoy it.
Now you see the real me. (Pity we don't have a devil smiley face to put here.)
:D Love it! Especially when it's a control-freak who suddenly realise just how powerless he is.
Ahem. I can also be a vindictive and cynical person when I want to and don't. I've had my fair share of petty and immature control-freaks.
Quote from: En_Route on August 05, 2012, 10:04:53 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 09:43:39 PM
Just don't dare me to ban you. It can have exactly the desired effect.
Yes, better to dare him not to ban you and you'll be here for life.
;)
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 05, 2012, 10:14:58 PM
:D Love it! Especially when it's a control-freak who suddenly realise just how powerless he is.
Ahem. I can also be a vindictive and cynical person when I want to and don't. I've had my fair share of petty and immature control-freaks.
Oh yes, he was indeed. One day, long before I was fired, I found my desk gone and all my things piled on top of his desk, which had been put in my spot. It seemed he had measured the desks, and mine was a couple of inches bigger.
You know there's a joke here, but I'm too much of a gentleman to say it. (Yeah right... ::) )
I also think he had a trophy bride. She was drop-dead gorgeous and he looked like, well, Dr. Sivana (comic book reference): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Sivana Mind you, someone who looks like Dr. Sivana but is kind and empathetic is worthy of anyone's love and commitment. The problem is he also had a personality like Dr. Sivana...
Dear Tank, please DON'T ( ;) ;) ;)) send me 3 liters of chocolate-mint frozen yogurt (see my address enclosed in PM to follow).
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 05, 2012, 10:09:43 PM
Quote from: En_Route on August 05, 2012, 10:04:53 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2012, 09:43:39 PM
Just don't dare me to ban you. It can have exactly the desired effect.
Yes, better to dare him not to ban you and you'll be here for life.
Good goddess! The board and I are engaged, and we haven't so much as dated. When did I say lifetime commitment? :D
Welcome to the Hotel California.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 05, 2012, 09:29:54 PM
I knew that my boss would stay in his office until I left, and so, three days before my last, I stayed alone in the common office until 1:00 AM playing computer games.
Revenge, a prank, and a video game? Sounds devilishly fun.
Just wanted to say thank you for telling your story. I'm really enjoying your posts and see my own insecurities mirrored in what you say - even the carnal bits, though a couple years of complete sexual hedonism pretty well 'cured' of me of any extraneous religious guilt ;).
Quote from: Synapse on August 06, 2012, 04:05:57 AM
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 05, 2012, 09:29:54 PM
I knew that my boss would stay in his office until I left, and so, three days before my last, I stayed alone in the common office until 1:00 AM playing computer games.
Revenge, a prank, and a video game? Sounds devilishly fun.
Oh it was, it was... ;D
Gotta go sharpen my horns...
Quote from: Dobermonster on August 06, 2012, 04:34:52 AM
Just wanted to say thank you for telling your story. I'm really enjoying your posts and see my own insecurities mirrored in what you say - even the carnal bits, though a couple years of complete sexual hedonism pretty well 'cured' of me of any extraneous religious guilt ;).
So glad to hear that you find my story helpful and entertaining--and so glad you said something!
I can only dream of years of complete sexual hedonism--but I do have a wonderful imagination... Sounds wonderful. (
--cough cough-- with Jensen Ackles
--cough cough--)
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 06, 2012, 10:39:41 PM
Quote from: Dobermonster on August 06, 2012, 04:34:52 AM
Just wanted to say thank you for telling your story. I'm really enjoying your posts and see my own insecurities mirrored in what you say - even the carnal bits, though a couple years of complete sexual hedonism pretty well 'cured' of me of any extraneous religious guilt ;).
So glad to hear that you find my story helpful and entertaining--and so glad you said something!
I can only dream of years of complete sexual hedonism--but I do have a wonderful imagination... Sounds wonderful. (--cough cough-- with Jensen Ackles --cough cough--)
You know, I think there is something to be said for imagination as a way of loosening mental bonds. I remember being a young teenager and wracked with guilt over my 'sinful' (read: sexual) thoughts, and would try to distract myself from them by praying or reading the Bible. As I started to detach from religion in general, I found simply fantasizing a big step towards emotional freedom. May not work for everybody, but as far as alternative therapies go at least it's a fun one. :P
There is nothing magical about sex. It does not change you from a boy to a man nor does it change you from pure to impure.
You can merge sperm with an egg in a laboratory, no sex required.
Yeah, it can be intimate, so can kissing and cuddling. Nothing magical.
I can understand why some religious people are against non married people having sex, as it can lead to unwanted pregnancy and hence abortion which some consider murder.
But the religious concerns about gay sex are unfounded. It will never lead to abortion. They often argue that it is disordered or unnatural but why do people need to confine themselves to "natural". Is it natural to travel in a car as opposed to on foot? Is it natural to fly in the sky, to watch TV or to each ice cream?
If their god is all powerful and doesn't like people having gay sex, then this god can stop it himself, he doesn't need people to do this for him.
Religious used to be scared of witches casting black magic spells. Some were scared of the Harry Potter movies. They are just being superstitiously silly.
There is nothing magical about sex.
Quote from: Dobermonster on August 06, 2012, 11:12:32 PM
You know, I think there is something to be said for imagination as a way of loosening mental bonds. I remember being a young teenager and wracked with guilt over my 'sinful' (read: sexual) thoughts, and would try to distract myself from them by praying or reading the Bible. As I started to detach from religion in general, I found simply fantasizing a big step towards emotional freedom. May not work for everybody, but as far as alternative therapies go at least it's a fun one. :P
I too was wracked with guilt over my sexual thoughts when I was a teen, and it did not stop until around 2004, when I became an atheist at age 39. I was out of the closet since two days before my 23rd birthday, but even as a gay virgin I was... guilty as sin. :-[ Every sexual attempt produced incredible guilt (religion + OCD = disaster), and all that is probably why I am still single and have not done anything in years.
But, oh, do I have an imagination!
Star Trek in the ongoing fiction--with Andorians needing four to have sex--has only given me the craziest fantasies... At least I now enjoy those guilt-free.
Maybe one day I'll be able to write about how I have finally done something again. I promise to let all of you know if (when?) it happens.
Quote from: Stevil on August 07, 2012, 02:39:13 AM
There is nothing magical about sex. It does not change you from a boy to a man nor does it change you from pure to impure.
You can merge sperm with an egg in a laboratory, no sex required.
Yeah, it can be intimate, so can kissing and cuddling. Nothing magical.
I can understand why some religious people are against non married people having sex, as it can lead to unwanted pregnancy and hence abortion which some consider murder.
But the religious concerns about gay sex are unfounded. It will never lead to abortion. They often argue that it is disordered or unnatural but why do people need to confine themselves to "natural". Is it natural to travel in a car as opposed to on foot? Is it natural to fly in the sky, to watch TV or to each ice cream?
If their god is all powerful and doesn't like people having gay sex, then this god can stop it himself, he doesn't need people to do this for him.
Religious used to be scared of witches casting black magic spells. Some were scared of the Harry Potter movies. They are just being superstitiously silly.
There is nothing magical about sex.
I know that you are right on the mark,
Stevil. I am so glad that you and the others are here to share these ideas with me.
One issue, though: One of the many reasons I say I have a female spirit is that, to me, sex is love. Many years ago I did fool around with different folks for the sake of fooling around, but I realized it wasn't what I wanted out of sex. (Then again, do I really know what I want, or am I still giving mental lip service to religion and OCD?)
At one point I was even posting on an asexual board, questioning if I was asexual. I don't believe I am, but I do think I may be what they called "lightly sexed." Ironically, I ended up helping folks with OCD there and also wrote an article in which I explained (as a sexual person) asexuality to sexual people. Ironic that I always fall into teacher mode. I wonder if I use it to cover my lack of sex.
Harry Potter... Just think of all the things those spells can do to enhance sexual experience! And Dumbledore is gay (according to J.K. Rowling). Too cool.
I think it's time to reread those books for the fourth time...
Do we have a Harry Potter thread or can we start one?
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 07, 2012, 04:13:43 PM
Do we have a Harry Potter thread or can we start one?
No. Yes.
(If we must :D)
I don't want to be in Hufflepuff.
Quote from: TheWalkingContradiction on August 07, 2012, 04:13:43 PM
One issue, though: One of the many reasons I say I have a female spirit is that, to me, sex is love.
Hang on, now you are thinking like a man.
Ever hear of the saying "A woman needs to feel loved to have sex but a man needs to have sex to feel loved"
Sex ain't love.
Personally, myself, I don't like physical contact, I'm weird that way. Absolutely hate it when Aunties want to give me a hug and a kiss. Grosses me out. Even if a pretty girl wants to kiss me or hug me, I just don't like people invading my personal space.
But if I really like someone, then it becomes natural. You don't even realise that this personal space has disappeared, others notice it before you do. There certainly is a natural desire to like someone, to have someone special and significant in your life. To share life with, to experience life together. I guess that is love, but it also suits procreation, without which we wouldn't continue to exist as a species. With regards to gay people, it can't lead to procreation but still the desire to love and be loved is no doubt as natural as it is for heterosexuals.
If there is a god and if that god is loving or "IS LOVE" then why would that god want people to be apart from their loved ones? It is a beautiful thing, to see two people in love. Why would that god be concerned about sex? Have you ever thought of telling off the animals or insects around you for having "improper" sex? Who really gives a toss about other's having sex? It is a personal, private thing, shared between consenting adults.