What is the difference between the soul and the spirit?
As you were growing up, what were you told about your spirit and your soul?
I've heard animal have souls.... ::)
I've heard you can sell your soul. Has anyone here? To whom and for how much?
I've heard it can burn eternally... ::)
Others want to give it "back" to the "lord". Does this mean it comes with a warranty?
Just curious. :-\
Can they please properly define what 'soul' is?
Soul is a music genre. Spirit is something strong to drink.
Quote from: fester30 on July 20, 2012, 08:03:53 AM
Soul is a music genre. Spirit is something strong to drink.
:D I don't know why I was expecting that sort of answer, 'cept I was expecting Ecurb to say it.
Quote from: The Great Book Of Wisdomspirit (n.)
mid-13c., "animating or vital principle in man and animals," from O.Fr. espirit, from L. spiritus "soul, courage, vigor, breath," related to spirare "to breathe," from PIE *(s)peis- "to blow" (cf. O.C.S. pisto "to play on the flute"). Original usage in English mainly from passages in Vulgate, where the Latin word translates Gk. pneuma and Heb. ruah. Distinction between "soul" and "spirit" (as "seat of emotions") became current in Christian terminology (e.g. Gk. psykhe vs. pneuma, L. anima vs. spiritus) but "is without significance for earlier periods" [Buck]. L. spiritus, usually in classical L. "breath," replaces animus in the sense "spirit" in the imperial period and appears in Christian writings as the usual equivalent of Gk. pneuma. Meaning "supernatural being" is attested from c.1300 (see ghost); that of "essential principle of something" (in a non-theological sense, e.g. Spirit of St. Louis) is attested from 1690, common after 1800.
So they seem to say that the distinction crept in late on,
spirit taking the wider meaning and
soul being the thing that goes to heaven or hell.
Some other languages make a similar distinction - Ger.
Geist / Seele, but French
esprit no longer means SPIRITVS, and soul is
âme.
Quote from: OldGit on July 20, 2012, 10:14:54 AM
current in Christian terminology (e.g. Gk. psykhe vs. pneuma, L. anima vs. spiritus)
This part of the definition has evolved in some modern evangelical theologies to mean that "psykhe" (soul) relates to the mind (reason, emotion, will) while "pneuma" (spirit) is most inner component of a human that relates to God (revelation, intuition). So you have the tripartite anthropology of body, soul and spirit. It is the spirit that is reborn in the Christian experience, so that it begins to live in faith in God.
Ancient Theories of Soul (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ancient-soul/#1)
Thats an interesting read if you are interested.
Quote from: Crow on July 20, 2012, 01:16:47 PM
Ancient Theories of Soul (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ancient-soul/#1)
Thats an interesting read if you are interested.
Wow, that's a lot of info to process, thanks.
Concerning the Spirit, the following might be interesting as an introduction.
"The Quran states, "They are asking thee concerning the Spirit.
Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little." (17:85)
The Quran does not go into much depth into this question, although both Adam and Jesus were created by the Spirit or
Breath of God, the latter being named the "Spirit of God" (ruh Allah). In fact each person is essentially a Spirit of God.
During the Night of Power the angels and the Spirit descend, which has lead some commentators to associate the Spirit with the Angel Gabriel.
While we can speak of the Spirit as a macrocosmic (or microcosmic) personification, such as the
Spirit of Muhammad (al-ruh al-muhammadiyyah), Jesus or Gabriel, for example, it seems that the
descent of the Word, the Quran, simply revealed the Universal Spirit (al-ruh al-kulli), first as the Spirit of the Prophet and
then as the Spirit of the believers to themselves. However, Gabriel did reveal the Word and the Spirit to the Prophet, and the Quran and the Prophet reveal the Spirit to us.
Gabriel and then the Prophet become like our own angelic double in Suhrawardi's vision, our higher Spirit that calls us to return from this occidental exile.
The Universal Spirit is the cosmic or immanent reflection of the Supreme Self (al-Dhat), the barzakh or isthmus that connects and separates the Divine and corporeal worlds, and the vertical axis that connects man to the Transcendent. It is synonymous with the Intellect (al-'aql) or the eye of the heart ('ayn al-qalb); a luminous substance that is both created and uncreated and can therefore act as an inner and outer intermediary, depending on our point of view, between the Creator and creation. The Spirit is the peak of the created order and the lowest level of the Divine order.
It seems that Christianity on the other hand is based explicitly on the doctrine of the Spirit in the two natures of Christ, which in fact reveals the two natures of man, the Spirit, and the way of ascent. I think that the Quran was providentially reluctant on this question to keep these two faiths distinct although it transposes it to the Book and secondarily to the Spirit of the Prophet and the Spirit as such in Islamic esoterism. I think that there is much to the gained, however, by examining both traditions' understanding of the Spirit side by side in the same way that we can compare their visions of the Absolute (Islam being arguably more explicit and clear on this matter).
I am not certain about the next world. It seems to me that something of the soul and its various levels must remain until it returns to its Lord, hence the need for hell, purgatory, and heaven. The Spirit like the angels, being like quasi-divine attributes, must retain their existence in the Garden until they are reabsorbed into the Garden of the Essence, which itself contains all multiplicity in Unity. And God knows best.
You might also look at René Guénon's essay "Ar-Ruh" in his Insights into Islamic Esoterism and Taoism and Frithjof Schuon's chapters "The Quranic message of Sayyidna 'Isa" and "An-Nur" in his Dimensions of Islam. Both identify the Spirit with the Metatron (Mitatrun) of the Kabbalah, which does not contradict its association with the Spirit of the Prophet in Islam or Christ in Christianity. See Guénon's chapter "Shekinah and Metatron" in his The King of the World."
— "Zachary" From Traditional Studies Discussion Forum (2nd post in thread) (http://traditionalstudies.freeforums.org/what-is-the-spirit-t309.html)
(Edited to add link to source. — Recusant)
Quote from: iSok on July 22, 2012, 02:00:27 PM
Concerning the Spirit, the following might be interesting as an introduction.
TLDR
Actually not quite accurate, I read far enough to realize that the post was doing everything except answering the question.
Quote from: magdalena on July 22, 2012, 05:36:48 AM
Wow, that's a lot of info to process, thanks.
Yeah its a bit wordy but worth it if you are interested in the concept. As the Christian and Islamic ideas of the soul are an expansion of the ancient Greek philosophers it gives a sold base for understanding the concept.
It's very nice to see you here again, iSok. Do you post on another forum under the name of "Zachary"? If not, you should have given a citation or link to this page (http://traditionalstudies.freeforums.org/what-is-the-spirit-t309.html), from which your answer appears to have been directly copied. See the HAF "NO PLAGIARISM" rule (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1522.0).
Quote from: Recusant on July 22, 2012, 05:28:20 PM
It's very nice to see you here again, iSok. Do you post on another forum under the name of "Zachary"? If not, you should have given a citation or link to this page (http://traditionalstudies.freeforums.org/what-is-the-spirit-t309.html), from which your answer appears to have been directly copied. See the HAF "NO PLAGIARISM" rule (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1522.0).
Hello Recusant, nice to see you too.
No, I am not the author (Zachary) of that text, but the fact that I
'italicized' that part should have made that clear from the start.
Anyway, thank you for notification, I will cite the souce from now on.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 20, 2012, 01:03:43 PM
Quote from: OldGit on July 20, 2012, 10:14:54 AM
current in Christian terminology (e.g. Gk. psykhe vs. pneuma, L. anima vs. spiritus)
This part of the definition has evolved in some modern evangelical theologies to mean that "psykhe" (soul) relates to the mind (reason, emotion, will) while "pneuma" (spirit) is most inner component of a human that relates to God (revelation, intuition). So you have the tripartite anthropology of body, soul and spirit. It is the spirit that is reborn in the Christian experience, so that it begins to live in faith in God.
And it's all made up.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 20, 2012, 01:03:43 PM
This part of the definition has evolved in some modern evangelical theologies to mean that "psykhe" (soul) relates to the mind (reason, emotion, will)
This confuses me. Why not just call the 'mind' by that rather than throw in a new word to describe the same thing? What's the difference between 'mind' and 'soul' to justifiy the use of one word or another? Just the fact that one is in a religious context?
It just seems meaningless to me.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 30, 2012, 04:51:34 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 20, 2012, 01:03:43 PM
This part of the definition has evolved in some modern evangelical theologies to mean that "psykhe" (soul) relates to the mind (reason, emotion, will)
This confuses me. Why not just call the 'mind' by that rather than throw in a new word to describe the same thing? What's the difference between 'mind' and 'soul' to justifiy the use of one word or another? Just the fact that one is in a religious context?
It just seems meaningless to me.
The issue is how to translate the Greek word. It's typically translated "soul", but it could also be translated "mind." "Soul" has a lot of baggage, and that causes confusion. It's just the mind.
According to the Skeptic's Dictionary:
www.skepdic.com
animism
Animism is the doctrine that things, even inanimate things, have souls,
an explanation for appearances of people in hallucinations or dreams.
soul (spirit)
A soul or spirit is a non-physical entity capable of perception and self-awareness, an entity invented for human wish-fulfillment.
In the book Creation and Procreation by Marta Weigle.
Animism is anywhere there is a belief in souls, ghosts, demons, devils, gods.
Animism was used to explain nature life like human life, for example:
The sun... A lord climbing proudly to the sky, and dim and weary descending to the under world.
The sea...A stormy sea was a fearful god.
Men ... Turn into a god or beast, tree or river.
Rocks...People turned to stone.
Sticks... To snakes.
So, to me, the soul and the spirit is the same thing if you put them under animism. The immaculate conception and the virgin birth of Jesus (Christianity). The talking burning bush, (Judaism), and the other religions originated from animism. After all, these unexplainable phenomena is stuff dreams are made of. :-\
Reminds me of a conversation I had with a philosophy prof once. He was asking what part of the soul is still 'you' after you die.
My reasoning is that since memories are stored in the brain, and personality is also represented in then brain, the soul must have no memory of your life, and also no aspect of your personality. Unless you are saying that the soul is also damaged when the brain areas that represent memory and personality are damaged, even if the 'soul' exists, cannot possibly represent 'you' at all. What is 'you' without your acquired experiences and outlook? And this is even worse when you make the claim that the soul is immutable. If it does not change, than the 'you' that exists when you die must be the 'you' that existed before you were born, free and completely decoupled from what you did in your life. So the concept of karma goes flying out of the window as well.
So what is the 'soul'? A fuzzy and nebulous concept left behind from when people had no idea what made human beings tick. A concept that, like the concept of god, has no use anymore.
Quote from: Synapse on August 04, 2012, 12:14:00 PM
Reminds me of a conversation I had with a philosophy prof once. He was asking what part of the soul is still 'you' after you die.
My reasoning is that since memories are stored in the brain, and personality is also represented in then brain, the soul must have no memory of your life, and also no aspect of your personality. Unless you are saying that the soul is also damaged when the brain areas that represent memory and personality are damaged, even if the 'soul' exists, cannot possibly represent 'you' at all. What is 'you' without your acquired experiences and outlook? And this is even worse when you make the claim that the soul is immutable. If it does not change, than the 'you' that exists when you die must be the 'you' that existed before you were born, free and completely decoupled from what you did in your life. So the concept of karma goes flying out of the window as well.
So what is the 'soul'? A fuzzy and nebulous concept left behind from when people had no idea what made human beings tick. A concept that, like the concept of god, has no use anymore.
+1
My sister recently wrote on facebook: "The spirit is the reconciliation between what the mind wants and what the heart yearns."
I responded with, "Spirts are what I put in my glass with ice and lemon."
;D
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on August 05, 2012, 06:52:58 PM
My sister recently wrote on facebook: "The spirit is the reconciliation between what the mind wants and what the heart yearns."
I responded with, "Spirts are what I put in my glass with ice and lemon."
;D
BAZINGA!!!
Quote from: DJ"Spirits are what I put in my glass with ice and lemon."
Yay! Good one, Juliet!