How do you feel about suicide in general? Your own attempts? Friends or family members who have committed suicide? Assisted suicide in general.
To give some personal background and participate right up front in this discussion....
I have personally attempted suicide. Once when I was a teenager (which I found was my first real bout with my bi polar illness) and then once again on an overdose of sleeping pills which landed me in the hospital. Both, for me, were a very real symptom of my bi polar illness not in check. I am quite grateful for being a failure at this one thing in my life for sure.
As for assisted suicide, I would have to say I don't have a definitive answer. But would find myself thinking about it on a case by case scenario. Though I do think those that really want to do it, should be able to. I would just want to make sure they are cleared of any mental illness first and deemed in sound state of mind.
The owner of a life should be free to end it at will unless the act of ending it directly endangers others. Pretty much end of opinion there...
I know my way around a suicide, but do not wish to discuss the methods or the whys of my attempts
A person should be free to take their own life, no matter the reason. Period.
People who wish to stop them from doing so are selfish.
The only time I am against suicide is only when someone is bullied into it. That is really horrible, and should be considered murder.
I think that assisted suicide is ok for people with terminal illness, but really doubt that anybody wanting to end their own life in any other circumstance is sound of mind. Sure it's their life but IMO their ability to make good decisions is reduced.
I'm not aware of the number of percentages of people who have found after their attempt has failed that they're glad they didn't succeed. I'd even risk saying that most people who attempt suicide don't actually want to die just for the sake of dying. I don't know.
Though Sweetdeath does mention an interesting point about those trying to keep people from committing suicide being selfish. But death is a one way street, and so I strongly feel that it's a last resort and not okay whatever the reason. Just in a few circumstances. Whether others (the ones who would continue living) are being selfish or not is irrelevant.
I think it can also be argued that suicide is one of the most selfish acts someone can commit. What about the people in their life who depend on them and love them and have to take care of the situation once they've expired? Their grief, etc.
So the whole thing is selfish all the way around, and someone is going to end up hurt afterward. And that's a bummer. I think that in almost all cases there is a better option than ending it all. I've never been to that point (or close to it even) myself, but I've worked with teenagers who have been, and mentioning the selfishness of it would derail them. Although, it was usually pretty evident when the "suicide talk" started, it was a cry for help and attention, and nothing more. Rarely did I see any actions being taken or plans to commit suicide being made.
All of that said, if someone wants to end it, and they've considered every other option, no one should be told they can't. Just don't jump off a highway overpass or anything that requires messy cleanup.
Quote from: hismikeness on August 25, 2011, 04:10:24 PM
Just don't jump off a highway overpass or anything that requires messy cleanup.
There was a guy living in my neighbourhood who was kind enough to wrap himself up in a blanket or carpet before he leaped from his apartment's window. Some say he did that so as not to make a mess.
Quote from: Asmodean on August 25, 2011, 10:32:09 AMThe owner of a life should be free to end it at will unless the act of ending it directly endangers others. Pretty much end of opinion there...
This is also my opinion on the matter. Bringing up selfishness is useless because everyone is selfish (and there's nothing wrong with it). The point ultimately comes down to whether one thinks a person should be in control of their own life or not.
Oh, yeah, I forgot assisted suicides! That's fine.
If someone is seriously and painfully dying from cancer, AIDS, or even has dementia or MS, and wants to die with dignity, thet have the right.
For the most part, we all go through our teenage emo moments and do the suicide thought. Everyonr's thought of it at least once maybe. But young people who commit suicide is sad. I did have a friend who slit her own throat and survived when we were both 18. I was really freaked out, and like Silver says, she is glad to be alive.
I still think though that people have a right to suicide on their OWN terms.
What's more selfish: a seriously depressed person wanting to commit suicide or a person trying to stop them from doing so? It's selfish either way, but it's not your life.
Also, randomly wanting to bring up how annoying I find it that suicide is considered a sin in the bible. Then again, what isn't? Am I right? :/
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 25, 2011, 05:59:35 PM
AIDS
Just because I'm a pedantic old fool, lemme point out that AIDS, or rather the virus that causes it, will not kill you - it's the opportunistic infections taking advantage of immunocompromised hosts.
I know, but it still sucks. :< I wouldn't want to be sick all the time.
If they're gonna die they better do it, and decrease the surplus population.
Quote from: xSilverPhinxI think that assisted suicide is ok for people with terminal illness, but really doubt that anybody wanting to end their own life in any other circumstance is sound of mind. Sure it's their life but IMO their ability to make good decisions is reduced.
This.
Quote from: hismikenessI think it can also be argued that suicide is one of the most selfish acts someone can commit. What about the people in their life who depend on them and love them and have to take care of the situation once they've expired? Their grief, etc.
You're asking suicidal people to be reasonable - they're not. I won't give the material details of my own experience in this, but whenever I've been in that position it hasn't felt like a choice. People talk about 'considering' suicide and that word is extremely misleading. It isn't like selecting a mortgage. It isn't just one 'option' out of several to be carefully weighed up and selected based on its moral or practical merits.
Also, I've heard people say things like "I've considered suicide, but decided not to in the end because it would be selfish." Those people have never been suicidal and don't know what they're talking about, in my opinion. They're also, usually, young people who have no dependants and who's loss the world could easily bear. Few people are so important that their deaths would really matter, and there are much more selfish and damaging things I can think of than just ceasing to exist.
edit:typo
I think suicide is sad,
especially the events leading to it and the sadness that the person must be going through. People ought to be much more compassionate, but regardless, life can sometime be extremely sad.
I am all for Euthanasia, I don't think it is right to make people suffer. I really don't like people dictating this suffering into law based on their personal beliefs.
I think the reason some people think suicide is selfish might be their true lack of understanding just what the suicidee is thinking. It's hard to be in that very dark place. Suicides don't think oh I just want to END MY LIFE. In fact it's probably the very last thing in a list of hopelessness that leads them there. They simply want the pain to stop. I am speaking of the emotional pain. As a person who was having mood swings every 30 minutes at my worst, it completely drains you. And you just want off the ride. All the hands of hope have withdrawn at this point. As for being selfish and thinking of the survivors? We do think of them. And we make the horrible realization that having us removed from the living is best for everyone around. THAT'S a dark place to be.
In some cases suicides can be very selfless, at least in their intentions. We had a guy at work who failed his physical fitness test a few times because of back problems. The Air Force was preparing to separate him. He had spent 15 years in. 15 years toward a retirement he wouldn't see. Instead of sending him to the medical evaluation board so he could be compensated for some of the injuries he received while serving his country, they were simply going to separate him and send him on his way. At his age, he didn't see where he could start another career with his education and experience that would feed his family and establish a retirement. He felt the best way to go was suicide, because his family would be left with the 400,000 SGLI, 100,000 death gratuity, and a percentage of his income for the rest of his wife's life. Military is pretty unique in that suicide does not automatically disqualify your dependents from the life insurance. So he killed himself, with his thoughts being that this is the only way he felt he could truly provide for his family that he loved so much.
^wow, that's a really interesting, but sad story.
My point is not offend any person(s) who've dealt with suicide either on the personal side or knowing a friend/family member that has/is, but anyone who fails at "suicide" is not really serious, but simply wanting attention. (not attention in the simplistic meaning).
Am I being insensitive in having this opinion? I'm not trying to be insensitive.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 26, 2011, 08:47:52 PM
Am I being insensitive in having this opinion? I'm not trying to be insensitive.
I don't think that is insensitive. In fact, with the work I did with the troubled youths, those that "attempted" and failed just internalized it as "one more thing I suck at." It was really sad. One kid tried to overdose by drinking mouthwash. ??? So it's not exactly a gun in the mouth that is off center and you blow the non critical side of your skull off and survive... I've heard those kinds of stories and don't think those are cries for help, but drinking mouthwash is.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 26, 2011, 08:47:52 PM
My point is not offend any person(s) who've dealt with suicide either on the personal side or knowing a friend/family member that has/is, but anyone who fails at "suicide" is not really serious, but simply wanting attention. (not attention in the simplistic meaning).
Am I being insensitive in having this opinion? I'm not trying to be insensitive.
I don't think it's offensive, but I'm not offended by very much. Without any statistics to cite, I'll put my foot in my mouth and say that most people who fail are seeking attention. But I'm also sure that some people just don't yet know how to do it with a higher chance for success (death in this case) and some people are caught in the act and foiled merely because of urgent medical treatment.
"Life's a bitch until you die... then some asshole brings you back."
So shooting from the hip and not having any attachment whatsoever to it, I agree with the statement generally.
Quote from: hismikeness on August 26, 2011, 09:06:31 PM
So it's not exactly a gun in the mouth that is off center and you blow the non critical side of your skull off and survive... I've heard those kinds of stories and don't think those are cries for help, but drinking mouthwash is.
Agreed. I meant in general. If someone really wants to die, there are ways to do it to make sure you get what you want. I'm sure some of the
crys for help also 'fail' in that they probably didn't really want to die.
(edit) or exactly as Davin mentions above, damn emergency services and other
do-gooders that "foil" the plan.
From a Christian perspective, (if I may for a moment) to commit suicide is basically saying there is no hope. Nothing can help (not even God) and only my own death can fix or be rid of the issue. I dare say, while Christ knew exactly what He was doing, He did die the death of a sinner which I believe is proven by His own words;
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" He felt alone and abandoned. He died feeling separated fully from God the Father. This is one reason (aside from nothing really being mentioned in the bible about suicide) that I hold the belief that suicide is forgivable.
Do you think Christianity's teachings that suicide is a sin, is a hindrance or something that helps humanity?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 26, 2011, 09:17:46 PM
This is one reason (aside from nothing really being mentioned in the bible about suicide) that I hold the belief that suicide is forgivable.
Oh, is that right?
Why do I have the perception that Christians think suicide is a mortal sin?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 26, 2011, 08:47:52 PM
My point is not offend any person(s) who've dealt with suicide either on the personal side or knowing a friend/family member that has/is, but anyone who fails at "suicide" is not really serious, but simply wanting attention. (not attention in the simplistic meaning).
Am I being insensitive in having this opinion? I'm not trying to be insensitive.
Not offensive at all. In fact, aside from medical reasoning, I think most suicides (especially teenage) are done by attention seekers. I kinda snicker at their unsuccessful attempts. I mean, it's not That difficult to off yourself.
Quote from: Stevil on August 26, 2011, 09:29:36 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 26, 2011, 09:17:46 PM
This is one reason (aside from nothing really being mentioned in the bible about suicide) that I hold the belief that suicide is forgivable.
Oh, is that right?
Why do I have the perception that Christians think suicide is a mortal sin?
I've heard it's because only god should decide when you die or someyhing. *rolls eyes*
Guess god didn't factor in murderers,kidnappers, rapists, and P.O.W camps.
In order in escape becoming a sex slave in a lot of war ridden s tories, most women would kill themselves. Nothing fucking wrong with that. This has hppened all over the world.
Quote from: Stevil on August 26, 2011, 09:27:20 PM
Do you think Christianity's teachings that suicide is a sin, is a hindrance or something that helps humanity?
Neither. (unless I'm missing your point) In general, the state of mind that leads up to suicide is internal. (as I view the issue) After the fact, everyone seems to be oblivious that there was a problem. There may be one or two that can say afterward something to the issues that may've contributed, but
I think most suicides come as a surprise to the surviving family and friends.
Quote from: Stevil on August 26, 2011, 09:29:36 PM
Oh, is that right?
Why do I have the perception that Christians think suicide is a mortal sin?
Anyone that singles out suicide (or any other sin for that matter) as a mortal sin, is a bit ignorant to what sin is. Going into Christian belief here; Any sin not covered by Christ's blood (while literal in a sense, but symbolic in nature) is a mortal sin. Again to clarify, there is only one sin that is pointed out as a mortal sin that cannot be forgiven. That being the sin of ignoring God up to and including ignoring God so much that one no longer hears the "still, small voice".
Ignoring god is a sin?
And yet, he/she/it makes no actual physical attempt to get involved in the human world. Hm.... :/ how interesting.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 26, 2011, 10:05:14 PM
Quote from: Stevil on August 26, 2011, 09:27:20 PM
Do you think Christianity's teachings that suicide is a sin, is a hindrance or something that helps humanity?
Neither. (unless I'm missing your point)
Not trying to make a point, just trying to understand, I have some perceptions, but am looking for knowledge to replace them.
Do some religion's or denominations treat failed suicidee's poorly, as if they are sinners?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 26, 2011, 10:05:14 PM
Again to clarify, there is only one sin that is pointed out as a mortal sin that cannot be forgiven. That being the sin of ignoring God up to and including ignoring God so much that one no longer hears the "still, small voice".
Nothing personal against you AD, I know you are just clarifying a Christian statnce, but i think the requirement of blind belief is laughable. Only an unjust god could jjudge people on that.
AnimatedDirt, two questions:
If suicide for those who really want to carry it out because they see it as the only possibility or as Medusa said, just don't want to live to suffer anymore, were something that's "bad" or wrong in god's eyes, then wouldn't god "say" something in something a bit more noticeable to that person than a "still, small voice"?
Secondly, I'm just curious to know why you think that (theologically) some Christians, such as the Catholics, consider suicide to be a sin? I think they take it to the extreme, not allowing things that I think are merciful such as euthanasia and so my disagreements with them are not based on theology because for me, they don't have to be.
I also don't think that your observation on suicide is insensitive.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 26, 2011, 10:23:32 PM
Ignoring god is a sin?
And yet, he/she/it makes no actual physical attempt to get involved in the human world. Hm.... :/ how interesting.
I would beg to differ. Not only has this God gotten involved, but the belief (and my reality) is that this God has already, and according to His own law, of which He is not guilty of breaking, gotten involved and paid the price He demands for sin. But it is everyone's perogative to ignore and/or disregard as myth. If it was proven beyond a shadow of doubt, you would no longer love, but would be then obligated to "love" as there is really no other position to take other than a position of eminent self-suicide.
Quote from: Stevil on August 26, 2011, 10:27:55 PM
Not trying to make a point, just trying to understand, I have some perceptions, but am looking for knowledge to replace them.
Do some religion's or denominations treat failed suicidee's poorly, as if they are sinners?
I can only speak of my own belief system, that of SDA's. I don't know for sure as I have not been privy to this situation first-hand, but as a matter of general belief, I think most SDA's in general have the same belief on the "lostness" of a person who takes their own life. I don't think anyone would treat a failed sucidee poorly, but maybe poorly in the sense of not understanding or fear.
Quote from: StevilNothing personal against you AD, I know you are just clarifying a Christian statnce, but i think the requirement of blind belief is laughable. Only an unjust god could jjudge people on that.
What you call blind, I call having evidence I believe to be good evidence. We differ on that only. At the moment, you* cannot be judged as never knowing about God, because you* openly deny any diety (* you being the average Atheist, a general "you") including the Abrahamic God which many of the Atheists I've come into contact here at HAF take personal exception on His perceived actions or lack thereof and add to their disgust on God that even if God were to come down and prove Himself, they would not follow anyway.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 26, 2011, 10:28:04 PM
AnimatedDirt, two questions:
If suicide for those who really want to carry it out because they see it as the only possibility or as Medusa said, just don't want to live to suffer anymore, were something that's "bad" or wrong in god's eyes, then wouldn't god "say" something in something a bit more noticeable to that person than a "still, small voice"?
Two points here.
1. I don't think even the Atheist belittles the "devil on our shoulder" as insignificant. That 'still, small voice' isn't necessarily audible, but sometimes our minds hear things loud and clear that are not audible. Sometimes, as we are speaking of here, things that drive someone to suicide are perceived problems with no solution that comes to mind and our mind is overrun with the problem which makes it so big, that they/we don't see any solution but suicide.
2. I'm not certain, but at least in the historical record of the Bible, suicide seems to not be a societal issue. If so, it may be that "Thou shalt not murder" is enough to cover the issue of suicide and cover whether suicide is a mortal sin or not. Clearly we see murderers in the biblical accounts that have turned to God and He has received them as a parent would their beloved child.
Quote from: xSilverPhinxSecondly, I'm just curious to know why you think that (theologically) some Christians, such as the Catholics, consider suicide to be a sin? I think they take it to the extreme, not allowing things that I think are merciful such as euthanasia and so my disagreements with them are not based on theology because for me, they don't have to be.
Because it is murder. Self murder, but murder nonetheless. It is a sin. The more important question is whether it is a mortal sin. I think I've covered my position on this. Taking it to the extreme is not unlike the Israelites (Jews) of the OT that added rules in keeping God's Law(s). None of which God ever uttered or wrote. It's basic human nature. As time goes on, we become more and more enlightened to the better interpretations. Suicide is a sin. No doubt. Is it a mortal sin or a sin to fear more than say stealing a nickel? No. Sin is sin no matter its degree. The smallest sin in the world can keep one out of salvation and likewise the biggest sin (aside from the unpardonable sin) cannot keep one from receiving the free gift of salvation through it's Mediator.
Quote from: xSilverPhinxI also don't think that your observation on suicide is insensitive.
Whew...I was sweating that post after hitting <Post>
So suicide is a sin no matter what? Even if a P.O.W with no hope of escape?
And I find it absolutely bull that a small "sin" like stealing an apple is viewed as te same as a big one; such as serial killing.
Hm..
Also, you mention evidence of your god and yet--nothing has been proven
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 27, 2011, 12:12:26 AM
Hm..
Also, you mention evidence of your god and yet--nothing has been proven
I think AD was referring to evidence to an interpretation of the bible rather than evidence that a god existed, well that's how I took it but may be wrong.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt
The smallest sin in the world can keep one out of salvation and likewise the biggest sin (aside from the unpardonable sin) cannot keep one from receiving the free gift of salvation through it's Mediator.
This is awesome. Since I will openly deny your god and holy spirit, or ignore him, I wouldn't have a chance. Yet many of the worst dictators, killers, rapists, and the rest are sitting comfortably in heaven having a beer with god because - hey - at least they believed in him.
Don't take this as me being upset in any way about it, because I don't believe in any of it anyway. Just an observation.
Quote from: Ihateyoumike on August 27, 2011, 01:47:39 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt
The smallest sin in the world can keep one out of salvation and likewise the biggest sin (aside from the unpardonable sin) cannot keep one from receiving the free gift of salvation through it's Mediator.
This is awesome. Since I will openly deny your god and holy spirit, or ignore him, I wouldn't have a chance. Yet many of the worst dictators, killers, rapists, and the rest are sitting comfortably in heaven having a beer with god because - hey - at least they believed in him.
Don't take this as me being upset in any way about it, because I don't believe in any of it anyway. Just an observation.
It doesn't make any sense. Anyways I'd rather not be in heaven if that's the sort of company god chooses to keep around.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 26, 2011, 08:47:52 PM
My point is not offend any person(s) who've dealt with suicide either on the personal side or knowing a friend/family member that has/is, but anyone who fails at "suicide" is not really serious, but simply wanting attention. (not attention in the simplistic meaning).
Am I being insensitive in having this opinion? I'm not trying to be insensitive.
I don't think it's insensitive. And I do see where you can get that idea. My failure was due to a complete fluke. I waited till my godmother was out of the house. I stayed home and I took a bunch of sleeping pills. I lay in the middle of the floor and waited to die. Unfortunately (read as FORTUNATELY) she had come home during the day and sadly found me on the floor. I didn't want attention in the least. I wanted the pain to stop. I was put on emergency diability by my psychiatrist. I had to step down as store manager. I had to go through alot of treatment and medications to get myself back to normal. My suicide attempt was a symptom of my bi-polar in full force (my mother also suffers from this and my brother is schizophrenic) The mental illness situation runs throughout my maternal side starting with my grandmother and probably earlier then her if I dug enough.
I wasn't looking for attention or help. I was looking for an end to something I thought there was none of. And even though I had dealt with mental illness my whole life through dealing with my mother. I had no real understanding of the deep well it lives within one self. And even now as I am pretty content with my life. I will never wear a true happy face. The happiness I feel. The limit that I have to feel it is just something I (and sadly Lecter) will have to deal with forever. I have come to accept this about me.
As for the offshoot topic of the religious beliefs on suicide. I think in the Christian world it's considered a sin because you are doing something in your own will and not the Will of God.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 26, 2011, 11:28:51 PM
What you call blind, I call having evidence I believe to be good evidence. We differ on that only. At the moment, you* cannot be judged as never knowing about God, because you* openly deny any diety (* you being the average Atheist, a general "you") including the Abrahamic God which many of the Atheists I've come into contact here at HAF take personal exception on His perceived actions or lack thereof and add to their disgust on God that even if God were to come down and prove Himself, they would not follow anyway.
I do not deny god.
I deny all evedence presented to date with regards to the existence of any god.
I am yet to see a clear description on what a god is.
I am yet to see any evidence as to why one god would be any more likely than any of the other gods.
I am yet to see any evidence as to whether the Abrahamic god acts favourably towards humans.
Going by the old testament, said to be the word of god, god acts in ways that kills people, drowning millions, turning people into salt, setting wild animals on children, sending disease to kill the first born of a race of people. The book is clear and specific to say that god did these things.
If the book were the word of god then to me it shows how poorly this god grasps language, it is terribly written, seems like something a 12 year old boy with a fascination for war and death and a hatred of women would write. The repitition is off putting and the messages are bizzare, and unfactual, requiring much interpretation.
If it became proven that the Abrahamic god exists then it would certainly need to explain itself to humanity and certainly myself before I could possibly choose to side with it.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 26, 2011, 11:46:56 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 26, 2011, 10:28:04 PM
AnimatedDirt, two questions:
If suicide for those who really want to carry it out because they see it as the only possibility or as Medusa said, just don't want to live to suffer anymore, were something that's "bad" or wrong in god's eyes, then wouldn't god "say" something in something a bit more noticeable to that person than a "still, small voice"?
Two points here.
1. I don't think even the Atheist belittles the "devil on our shoulder" as insignificant. That 'still, small voice' isn't necessarily audible, but sometimes our minds hear things loud and clear that are not audible. Sometimes, as we are speaking of here, things that drive someone to suicide are perceived problems with no solution that comes to mind and our mind is overrun with the problem which makes it so big, that they/we don't see any solution but suicide.
2. I'm not certain, but at least in the historical record of the Bible, suicide seems to not be a societal issue. If so, it may be that "Thou shalt not murder" is enough to cover the issue of suicide and cover whether suicide is a mortal sin or not. Clearly we see murderers in the biblical accounts that have turned to God and He has received them as a parent would their beloved child.
Quote from: xSilverPhinxSecondly, I'm just curious to know why you think that (theologically) some Christians, such as the Catholics, consider suicide to be a sin? I think they take it to the extreme, not allowing things that I think are merciful such as euthanasia and so my disagreements with them are not based on theology because for me, they don't have to be.
Because it is murder. Self murder, but murder nonetheless. It is a sin. The more important question is whether it is a mortal sin. I think I've covered my position on this. Taking it to the extreme is not unlike the Israelites (Jews) of the OT that added rules in keeping God's Law(s). None of which God ever uttered or wrote. It's basic human nature. As time goes on, we become more and more enlightened to the better interpretations. Suicide is a sin. No doubt. Is it a mortal sin or a sin to fear more than say stealing a nickel? No. Sin is sin no matter its degree. The smallest sin in the world can keep one out of salvation and likewise the biggest sin (aside from the unpardonable sin) cannot keep one from receiving the free gift of salvation through it's Mediator.
Quote from: xSilverPhinxI also don't think that your observation on suicide is insensitive.
Whew...I was sweating that post after hitting <Post>
Ok, thanks for clarifying. I just really don't see the point or even reasonableness of saying that a small sin is equal to a worse sin and that belief in god is placed so high, but that would derail the thread so maybe for another time.
I don't mean to be a downer. Not that religion talk isn't interesting ....to a point.
But can we get back to personal views on suicide? I could care less what God you worship or not has to say about this subject.
Quote from: Medusa on August 27, 2011, 04:36:02 AM
I don't mean to be a downer. Not that religion talk isn't interesting ....to a point.
But can we get back to personal views on suicide? I could care less what God you worship or not has to say about this subject.
OK, fair enough.
Suicide bad and sad.
But understandable sometimes.
One of my freinds had a girlfreind that killed herself.
She was raped many times as a child by her brothers, couldn't get over it. Life sux sometimes for some people.
That's horrible... ;_;
Fair enough.
I've never 'been there', as in really wanting to commit suicide for the sake of dying and hope I never go there. For the past few years I've cultivated very strong reasons to stay.
Medusa, did you ever think, during your darkest moments, that things could get better?
Quote from: Medusa on August 27, 2011, 04:36:02 AM
I don't mean to be a downer. Not that religion talk isn't interesting ....to a point.
But can we get back to personal views on suicide? I could care less what God you worship or not has to say about this subject.
I hear you and respect your wishes. :)
I work at a veterinary clinic where animal euthanasia is very common and it has helped put me into the pro-assisted suicide camp, for sure. 99% of the time, based on what I have seen, euthanasia comes as a blessing and the alternative is lengthy suffering. If we won't do that to our animal friends, why do we do it to other people? I have given my husband explicit instructions that if I am terminal and have no quality of life left, that I don't want to hang on just for the sake of "hanging on".
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on August 29, 2011, 12:15:56 PM
I work at a veterinary clinic where animal euthanasia is very common and it has helped put me into the pro-assisted suicide camp, for sure. 99% of the time, based on what I have seen, euthanasia comes as a blessing and the alternative is lengthy suffering. If we won't do that to our animal friends, why do we do it to other people? I have given my husband explicit instructions that if I am terminal and have no quality of life left, that I don't want to hang on just for the sake of "hanging on".
As a profession vets have the highest suicide rate in the UK as they can see the advantages and have access to the right equipment. I think doctors come second on the list.
I've given instructions like Medusa's; I carry a card and wear a DNAR bracelet which link to my written declaration.
Does it count as suicide if, dying from a heart attack, I verbally refuse treatment? It seems to me to be much the same as making a physical move such as pulling a trigger or swallowing pills. And if that does count as suicide, is it also suicide to refuse treatment in advance?
Quote from: Tank on August 29, 2011, 12:18:58 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on August 29, 2011, 12:15:56 PM
I work at a veterinary clinic where animal euthanasia is very common and it has helped put me into the pro-assisted suicide camp, for sure. 99% of the time, based on what I have seen, euthanasia comes as a blessing and the alternative is lengthy suffering. If we won't do that to our animal friends, why do we do it to other people? I have given my husband explicit instructions that if I am terminal and have no quality of life left, that I don't want to hang on just for the sake of "hanging on".
As a profession vets have the highest suicide rate in the UK as they can see the advantages and have access to the right equipment. I think doctors come second on the list.
People often talk about a high suicide rate within a profession as a bad thing, but in this case, I don't think it is. Even though I'm pro-assisted suicide, I don't think that I have a "cheapened view" of life. If anything, I have a greater appreciation for the health that I have and the things I am able to do
now. I know a lottt of people in this industry who feel the same way.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 26, 2011, 08:47:52 PM
but anyone who fails at "suicide" is not really serious, but simply wanting attention. (not attention in the simplistic meaning).
How's about the guy who drove a car into a cliff at 90 kilometers per hour with no seat belt on and was thoroughly revived in a hospital..? Not serious, was he..? Or someone who downed a bucket of Valium but couldn't go without subtly saying goodbye to someone... Except that someone "saw the signs" and got all suspicious..?
There is such a thing as rotten luck, you know.
There are people who survive multiple suicide attempts by the skin of their teeth, but not out of lack of will to die as much as out of lack of resources to really do it right.
Sometimes I feel it's wrong to revive someone who really tried to kill themselves. It's impossible to know the kind of internal pain a person is going, and if they don't want help, let them be.
No one has controll of my life but me.
If a flavor of Christianity thinks that suicide is a sin, then the person can repent for jumping on their way down and be forgiving for it.
Personally, I think that suicide is a personal decision that other people can give advice on, but should not control just because of their personal views. I don't think it's always a bad thing, and while I may personally object to some of the reason one offs themselves, I would never try to control them (though if I knew them well enough, there would likely be a lot of talking with them if I disagreed with their reasons).
I agree, Davin. There's nothing wrong with giving your opinion or speaking to someone if they are a loved one.
Ultimately if someone wants to off themselves very badly, there isn't much one can do.
As far as christian views on suicide being a sin-- what the fuck isn't a sin according to them? *rolls eyes* So I could give a flying rat's ass.
I don't really agree, because death is so final. It's not like bad decision you make that can later be remedied or turned into something positive. Once you're gone, you're gone.
I may be biased but I think that any person wanting to off themselves (not counting those who are terminally ill and suffering, there are good arguments in favour of assisted suicide for them) is not sound of mind, and so it's just wrong to let them take their own lives without trying to fix whatever it is that's causing them to want to end it all in the first place.
I understand death is final, but... You can't stop someone because you don't want them to.
This world is filthy and disgusting. Many people suffer unimaginable traumas... They may not be able to live with it anymore.
Are you ok with forcing them to live in constant pain?
Let's say they did seek help, therapy, whatever.
You are not able to tell someone you understand them or life is worth living. For people of extreme trauma or loss, sometimes it is not.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 29, 2011, 07:59:52 PM
I understand death is final, but... You can't stop someone because you don't want them to.
This world is filthy and disgusting. Many people suffer unimaginable traumas... They may not be able to live with it anymore.
Are you ok with forcing them to live in constant pain?
Let's say they did seek help, therapy, whatever.
You are not able to tell someone you understand them or life is worth living. For people of extreme trauma or loss, sometimes it is not.
No, not forcing them to live in constant pain, but try to end the pain by other means before resorting to the solution which is so final. I can't force anyone to do anything, but I'm basing my views on the assumption that both psychological and physical pain can either be learned how to live with and still live a worthy life, managed or else treated completely, which would mean that they're no longer reasons for wanting to kill oneself.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 29, 2011, 08:27:26 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 29, 2011, 07:59:52 PM
I understand death is final, but... You can't stop someone because you don't want them to.
This world is filthy and disgusting. Many people suffer unimaginable traumas... They may not be able to live with it anymore.
Are you ok with forcing them to live in constant pain?
Let's say they did seek help, therapy, whatever.
You are not able to tell someone you understand them or life is worth living. For people of extreme trauma or loss, sometimes it is not.
No, not forcing them to live in constant pain, but try to end the pain by other means before resorting to the solution which is so final. I can't force anyone to do anything, but I'm basing my views on the assumption that both psychological and physical pain can either be learned how to live with and still live a worthy life, managed or else treated completely, which would mean that they're no longer reasons for wanting to kill oneself.
but regardless, people that have failed a suicide require our support, not our judgement.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 29, 2011, 07:42:06 PM
I don't really agree, because death is so final. It's not like bad decision you make that can later be remedied or turned into something positive. Once you're gone, you're gone.
I may be biased but I think that any person wanting to off themselves (not counting those who are terminally ill and suffering, there are good arguments in favour of assisted suicide for them) is not sound of mind, and so it's just wrong to let them take their own lives without trying to fix whatever it is that's causing them to want to end it all in the first place.
Death is final, but it's also the person's life and choice. Given that the person is of sound mind, not a minor and is not being influenced, I see no problem.
I really don't think it's reasonable to say that someone is not sound of mind by virtue of wanting to kill themselves.
Quote from: Davin on August 29, 2011, 09:49:29 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 29, 2011, 07:42:06 PM
I don't really agree, because death is so final. It's not like bad decision you make that can later be remedied or turned into something positive. Once you're gone, you're gone.
I may be biased but I think that any person wanting to off themselves (not counting those who are terminally ill and suffering, there are good arguments in favour of assisted suicide for them) is not sound of mind, and so it's just wrong to let them take their own lives without trying to fix whatever it is that's causing them to want to end it all in the first place.
Death is final, but it's also the person's life and choice. Given that the person is of sound mind, not a minor and is not being influenced, I see no problem.
I really don't think it's reasonable to say that someone is not sound of mind by virtue of wanting to kill themselves.
I agree that it's their life and choice, but depending on the reasons for why they want to kill themselves, I really can't see how most could be considered sound of mind at least during those moments. It depends on their reasons I guess. Depression for instance is not a normal or desired state of mind, but it can be treated. I think that people who want to end it because they're depressed should be discouraged from doing so. Terminal illness and suffering till the close end is a valid reason, and so I support euthanasia.
Edited to clarify.
If I'm bored with life, what can be offered to fix my problem? More of the things I find boring? Something that is kind of different but mostly the same as something else I'm already bored with?
From a personal perspective: Try reading the same book once a week over and over again for ten years. Then imagine that one book is the only form of entertainment available. Do that and then you might understand how boring things can get. How long do I wait while receiving professional help before I finally decide that nothing can reasonably be done? Ten, twenty or thirty years? All the while I'm mentally suffering because I'm trusting the advice of others who think things will get better for me. I'm really trying my best to find things interesting to me, but eventually those sources will run out as well. Do I wait around for the next nifty thing science discovers merely for the few momements of relief that it instills? How many times can I have virtually the same conversations?
If the end result is the same and I don't enjoy anything on the way there, then why should I continue? It seems a lot more rational to skip all the boring stuff that one doesn't enjoy, than trudging through it for no other purpose than to trudge through it in the vain hope that one will eventually enjoy it.
I'm not currently to the point where I'm completely bored, but being on what appears to be the edge, I think I can see how easily I could become completely bored. People have been telling me it will get better for most of my life while it progressively gets worse. So unless something removes my memories, it's only going to get worse from here. I suppose Alzheimer's or senility is something to look forward to if I'm so lucky.
Quote from: Davin on August 29, 2011, 11:01:04 PM
If I'm bored with life, what can be offered to fix my problem? More of the things I find boring? Something that is kind of different but mostly the same as something else I'm already bored with?
From a personal perspective: Try reading the same book once a week over and over again for ten years. Then imagine that one book is the only form of entertainment available. Do that and then you might understand how boring things can get. How long do I wait while receiving professional help before I finally decide that nothing can reasonably be done? Ten, twenty or thirty years? All the while I'm mentally suffering because I'm trusting the advice of others who think things will get better for me. I'm really trying my best to find things interesting to me, but eventually those sources will run out as well. Do I wait around for the next nifty thing science discovers merely for the few momements of relief that it instills? How many times can I have virtually the same conversations?
If the end result is the same and I don't enjoy anything on the way there, then why should I continue? It seems a lot more rational to skip all the boring stuff that one doesn't enjoy, than trudging through it for no other purpose than to trudge through it in the vain hope that one will eventually enjoy it.
I'm not currently to the point where I'm completely bored, but being on what appears to be the edge, I think I can see how easily I could become completely bored. People have been telling me it will get better for most of my life while it progressively gets worse. So unless something removes my memories, it's only going to get worse from here. I suppose Alzheimer's or senility is something to look forward to if I'm so lucky.
Sorry, it's perspective I don't really understand, because I've never been there. I may be saying what looks like complete nonsense to those who have. But to me even those who are bored can find sufficient good reasons to stick around. I don't know.
Suicide doesn't seem to bother me as much as it bothers you, Silver.
I did have a friend back in 2005 who did kill himself. He hung himself in his bedroom. He was serverly depressed, and had a terrible eating disorder.
Was I sad he died? Yes, very. But the way his life was... I'm happy for him. Happy his struggle is over. I never got angry, never held it against him..
So, yeah. He's gone, but it's okay. Suicide is okay. I don't encourage it, but I dont hold it against anyone either.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 30, 2011, 01:09:14 AM
Suicide doesn't seem to bother me as much as it bothers you, Silver.
I did have a friend back in 2005 who did kill himself. He hung himself in his bedroom. He was serverly depressed, and had a terrible eating disorder.
Was I sad he died? Yes, very. But the way his life was... I'm happy for him. Happy his struggle is over. I never got angry, never held it against him..
So, yeah. He's gone, but it's okay. Suicide is okay. I don't encourage it, but I dont hold it against anyone either.
That's so sad. I had a neighbor in my apartment complex (back in the day) shoot himself on 4th of July. He figured no one would notice the shotgun. Me and my gf at the time offered to go in and help clean up the mess he left. It was a room full of grey matter and blood.
QuoteI think that people who want to end it because they're depressed should be discouraged from doing so.
I agree 100%
Quote from: RunFromMyLife on August 30, 2011, 01:29:09 AM
Was I relieved? NO. Am i relieved 10 years later? NO.
Another root issue right here. All the "Give it a few years and ye useless butt will be thanking them doctors an' be wishing that your trigger finger never itched" really gets on my nerve, at least. And, from experience, it's a very commonly used argument... Saying... Thing.
Why do people have to assume that everyone is just like them and that deep in our hearts we all have the same priorities..?
Quote from: RunFromMyLife on August 30, 2011, 01:29:09 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on August 29, 2011, 05:28:48 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 26, 2011, 08:47:52 PM
but anyone who fails at "suicide" is not really serious, but simply wanting attention. (not attention in the simplistic meaning).
How's about the guy who drove a car into a cliff at 90 kilometers per hour with no seat belt on and was thoroughly revived in a hospital..? Not serious, was he..? Or someone who downed a bucket of Valium but couldn't go without subtly saying goodbye to someone... Except that someone "saw the signs" and got all suspicious..?
There is such a thing as rotten luck, you know.
There are people who survive multiple suicide attempts by the skin of their teeth, but not out of lack of will to die as much as out of lack of resources to really do it right.
Thank you for this post. I AM one of those people. Without getting into extensive details I'll just say, "Goddamn my freshman-year roommate for coming back to our dorm even though she ALWAYS stayed with her parents every weekend." My doctor told me I wouldn't be here had I been brought to the hospital half an hour later. Was I relieved? NO. Am i relieved 10 years later? NO.
On a personal level, I hang on for those who love me because I don't want to hurt them. On a broader level, I don't think people should have to survive for others if they don't want to, or can't, survive for themselves.
As for assisted suicide: I've been a proponent of it for as long as I can remember. My great-grandpa shot himself while my great-grandma was at church. He was in the throes of lung cancer and just couldn't cope anymore. The thought of assisted suicide sounds a lot more pleasant that my great-grandma finding him.
Well at least you are here to bitch and moan how you are alive. ;)
Quote from: Asmodean on August 30, 2011, 03:54:00 AM
Quote from: RunFromMyLife on August 30, 2011, 01:29:09 AM
Was I relieved? NO. Am i relieved 10 years later? NO.
Another root issue right here. All the "Give it a few years and ye useless butt will be thanking them doctors an' be wishing that your trigger finger never itched" really gets on my nerve, at least. And, from experience, it's a very commonly used argument... Saying... Thing.
Why do people have to assume that everyone is just like them and that deep in our hearts we all have the same priorities..?
Argh, I know. I wish certain people would stop acting like "time heals all wounds." It doesn't always. And once again, you can never understand how someone feels, because you're not THEM.
Stop pushing your views on life onto others who has the right to end their life at anytime.
I guess it does bother me, but you're all correct in saying that I don't live their lives and see their reasons for wanting to end them, so I can't really judge meaningfully.
I always think of it as this:
An Atheist lying in a hospital bed, doped up on drugs to quel the agony of a drawn out death.
No hope of respite because the Christians, who believe their imaginary god does not like euthanasia based on some sentence in a very old book, they lobbied government to save the souls of everybody. Especially those who would wish to make a peaceful end to their lives.
Mr and Mrs Christian sitting at home watching TV, laughing at some stupid comedy on tv (possibly 2 and a half men) ignorant of the dying atheist's plight, feeling warm fuzzies about the vote they cast to ensure people don't commit suicide and go to hell.
Quote from: Stevil on September 02, 2011, 08:57:11 PM
I always think of it as this:
An Atheist lying in a hospital bed, doped up on drugs to quel the agony of a drawn out death.
No hope of respite because the Christians, who believe their imaginary god does not like euthanasia based on some sentence in a very old book, they lobbied government to save the souls of everybody. Especially those who would wish to make a peaceful end to their lives.
Mr and Mrs Christian sitting at home watching TV, laughing at some stupid comedy on tv (possibly 2 and a half men) ignorant of the dying atheist's plight, feeling warm fuzzies about the vote they cast to ensure people don't commit suicide and go to hell.
Amen to that! Ooops!
Quote from: Stevil on September 02, 2011, 08:57:11 PM
I always think of it as this:
An Atheist lying in a hospital bed, doped up on drugs to quel the agony of a drawn out death.
No hope of respite because the Christians, who believe their imaginary god does not like euthanasia based on some sentence in a very old book, they lobbied government to save the souls of everybody. Especially those who would wish to make a peaceful end to their lives.
Mr and Mrs Christian sitting at home watching TV, laughing at some stupid comedy on tv (possibly 2 and a half men) ignorant of the dying atheist's plight, feeling warm fuzzies about the vote they cast to ensure people don't commit suicide and go to hell.
*slow golf clap* ^__^
Quote from: Stevil on September 02, 2011, 08:57:11 PM
I always think of it as this:
An Atheist lying in a hospital bed, doped up on drugs to quel the agony of a drawn out death.
No hope of respite because the Christians, who believe their imaginary god does not like euthanasia based on some sentence in a very old book, they lobbied government to save the souls of everybody. Especially those who would wish to make a peaceful end to their lives.
Mr and Mrs Christian sitting at home watching TV, laughing at some stupid comedy on tv (possibly 2 and a half men) ignorant of the dying atheist's plight, feeling warm fuzzies about the vote they cast to ensure people don't commit suicide and go to hell.
you think Christians or religious poeple don't deal with suicide? This seems a very one sided observation. Death comes for everyone and everyone has to deal with it the way they best can handle it.
Quote from: Medusa on September 02, 2011, 11:43:35 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 02, 2011, 08:57:11 PM
I always think of it as this:
An Atheist lying in a hospital bed, doped up on drugs to quel the agony of a drawn out death.
No hope of respite because the Christians, who believe their imaginary god does not like euthanasia based on some sentence in a very old book, they lobbied government to save the souls of everybody. Especially those who would wish to make a peaceful end to their lives.
Mr and Mrs Christian sitting at home watching TV, laughing at some stupid comedy on tv (possibly 2 and a half men) ignorant of the dying atheist's plight, feeling warm fuzzies about the vote they cast to ensure people don't commit suicide and go to hell.
you think Christians or religious poeple don't deal with suicide? This seems a very one sided observation. Death comes for everyone and everyone has to deal with it the way they best can handle it.
My post was with regards to the Atheists bearing the consequences of law influenced by Christian belief. Surely if Christians believe against Euthanasia they can simply opt out if the opportunity presents itself to them. Why do they need Atheists to be forced not to have the option?
I strongly agree with the posts so far. I am a strong proponent of assisted suicide. All human beings should be able to choose to die with dignity if they are of sound mind (whether terminal or not). Family and friends will sometimes not understand and desire for the person to hang on but urging a person to suffer more than need be is being selfish and not compassionate. The only arguments I hear from the anti-A/S people are religious in nature or the slippery slope arguments (which of course emanate from fear or religion, not knowledge or rationality).
I would love to see a law in the works for assisted suicides.
Quote from: Stevil on September 02, 2011, 08:57:11 PM
I always think of it as this:
An Atheist lying in a hospital bed, doped up on drugs to quell the agony of a drawn out death.
No hope of respite because the Christians, who believe their imaginary god does not like euthanasia based on some sentence in a very old book, they lobbied government to save the souls of everybody. Especially those who would wish to make a peaceful end to their lives.
Mr and Mrs Christian sitting at home watching TV, laughing at some stupid comedy on tv (possibly 2 and a half men) ignorant of the dying atheist's plight, feeling warm fuzzies about the vote they cast to ensure people don't commit suicide and go to hell.
Exactly. That's what angers me, who may very well be facing something similar quite soon.
Quote from: Stevil on September 02, 2011, 08:57:11 PM
I always think of it as this:
Mr and Mrs Christian sitting at home watching TV, laughing at some stupid comedy on tv (possibly 2 and a half men) ignorant of the dying atheist's plight, feeling warm fuzzies about the vote they cast to ensure people don't commit suicide and go to hell.
Or nodding in agreement with some turd talking about government's wasteful spending.
Quote from: Medusa on September 02, 2011, 11:43:35 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 02, 2011, 08:57:11 PM
I always think of it as this:
An Atheist lying in a hospital bed, doped up on drugs to quel the agony of a drawn out death.
No hope of respite because the Christians, who believe their imaginary god does not like euthanasia based on some sentence in a very old book, they lobbied government to save the souls of everybody. Especially those who would wish to make a peaceful end to their lives.
Mr and Mrs Christian sitting at home watching TV, laughing at some stupid comedy on tv (possibly 2 and a half men) ignorant of the dying atheist's plight, feeling warm fuzzies about the vote they cast to ensure people don't commit suicide and go to hell.
you think Christians or religious poeple don't deal with suicide? This seems a very one sided observation. Death comes for everyone and everyone has to deal with it the way they best can handle it.
Of course Christians and religious people deal with death, but there is very wide-spread christian doctrine against suicide/assisted suicide
no matter what. Don't you remember the Terri Schiavo case?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F5%2F51%2FTerri_Schiavo_protest.jpg%2F657px-Terri_Schiavo_protest.jpg&hash=e05bae65a81e2f6dbdbfe1f7ca7d3f3d58b59cf2)
I watched a documentary on 9/11 the other day. It turns out that nobody "jumped" - all the 200 or so poor devils who fell from windows were "forced out by the fire". To me, there's no difference but seemingly many Christians would be very unhappy to think that their loved ones killed themselves, whereas being forced out by the flames is OK.
Insanity.
Quote from: OldGit on September 06, 2011, 04:00:06 PM
I watched a documentary on 9/11 the other day. It turns out that nobody "jumped" - all the 200 or so poor devils who fell from windows were "forced out by the fire". To me, there's no difference but seemingly many Christians would be very unhappy to think that their loved ones killed themselves, whereas being forced out by the flames is OK.
Insanity.
How could they possibly know that no one jumped?
Good question. ???
Quote from: OldGit on September 06, 2011, 04:00:06 PM
It turns out that nobody "jumped" - all the 200 or so poor devils who fell from windows were "forced out by the fire".
What's the difference?
Do they think someone may have been suicidal and just took the opportunity to jump?
Quote from: Stevil on September 06, 2011, 08:08:54 PM
Quote from: OldGit on September 06, 2011, 04:00:06 PM
It turns out that nobody "jumped" - all the 200 or so poor devils who fell from windows were "forced out by the fire".
What's the difference?
Do they think someone may have been suicidal and just took the opportunity to jump?
Because if they're Catholic (for example), they're supposed to suffer an agonizing death by burning alive than to sin and jump to their deaths. But like I said earlier, they can do their Hail Marys on the way down and be forgiven of their sin before they die.
I am an Atheist and a Naturalistic thinker.
I propose that an individual's life is only of real genuine value so long as, on balance, it proves beneficial to the survival and propagation of it's genes.
If or when the day arrives that my life no longer provides (or holds the hope of providing) benefit to myself and(/or) those near and dear to me, it would be better for my genes if I were dead.
Therefore in the right circumstances not only do I believe that suicide can be justified but that it can in fact be a noble undertaking.
The difficulty is judging if that time has arrived! :-\
I don't think jumping out of a burning building is really suicide, not if it's done to avoid certain death. It may delay death and there's always the chance they'll think of something or be rescued by spider man or the Spaghetti Monster may lower a tendril to them.
Quote from: fester30 on August 25, 2011, 11:11:28 PM
If they're gonna die they better do it, and decrease the surplus population.
Dickens, or Swift? I'm almost certain its one or the other.
In general I agree that it's up to an adult individual to decide whether or not to end their life early, even if it turns out to be a bad decision. I'm not happy about that but I do think it is their right. Kids, that's a different matter.
I would prefer, for those considering suicide from lack of help or hope, that they have better chances of getting those things before turning to a permanent solution for a temporary problem but I realize that even with the best of efforts there's no way of reaching everyone. It's one of life's cold facts.
As for assisted suicide for health reasons, I think the states that allow this have perfectly acceptable safeguards in place. As I understand it, you have to get 2 doctors confirming that you're in a rational state of mind, have 6 mos or less to live and absolutely no hope of getting even slightly better. Far be it from me to force anyone into an increasingly painful 6 mos countdown when they're more than ready to end it now.
As for personal experience, I did make what I suppose could be called a very clumsy and ham-fisted attempt to kill myself at 16. It's an ordinary enough story -- unpleasant childhood, which I finally got out of at 14 when I was allowed to go live with my Dad. That improved the circumstances of my life like night to day and I naively assumed that my emotional state should instantly change as well, being too young and inexperienced to know that the emotional stuff takes time.
Anyway, when, after two years, I was still depressed, having nightmares and all the rest I thought that it was
always going to be like this no matter how good my life was on the outside and I just couldn't stand that possibility. Hence the ham-fisted attempt which my Dad managed to interrupt even tho he wasn't with me at the time; he also watched me like a hawk after that tho we never mentioned the incident.
I think those are the two things that kept me from trying again: the knowledge that someone actually did care whether I lived or died, and the time needed to finally start feeling better and realise it was possible if not quick. I wish there were some way to convince everyone feeling hopeless of that, but I think it's one of those things you have to learn the hard way. And then too, if someone simply doesn't
want to wait that long, I don't feel I have the right to interfere with them because I do understand where they're coming from.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 07, 2011, 04:48:46 AM
I don't think jumping out of a burning building is really suicide, not if it's done to avoid certain death. It may delay death and there's always the chance they'll think of something or be rescued by spider man or the Spaghetti Monster may lower a tendril to them.
LOL!
Everybody gets one. XD