Is it ok to lie to children? Are some forms ok and others not?
I personally think it is the worst thing a person can do to a child (besides the obvious). When I hear a parent say babies come from any place other than a vagina, that Santa exists, the tooth fair exists or any of the other various lies that people tell children it pisses me off big time. Now I don't think it is always necessary to put a child correct, for example if a child believes in Santa there is no harm in letting that be unless they start to become a bit obsessed, however I do think it's very wrong to place that belief there or manipulate it. I can understand why some parents may lie at times simply because they need a rest or makes their life that little bit easier, but that is still wrong. The basic premise of being a parent is to help create an environment that is beneficial for a child to grow into a self sufficient adult and by not providing them with the most accurate information available you are not creating this. Now some people seem to get mixed up that telling the truth creates a boring childhood without imagination which certainly isn't the case as that's bullshit, what imagination is involved in regurgitating tall tales generation after generation and making them believe something is true which isn't, creating that sense of "magic" is easy and doesn't require a belief in anything. Though the temptation to have fun with little white lies is certainly tempting.
I know this is a contentious issue, but I feel the same way. I have no desire to have our wee one believe in Santa/Tooth fairy/Easter Bunny. I've never said anything to any other parents because, hey, it's their kid and they're allowed to do what they want (and we all probably get enough unsolicited advice as it is), but yeah. I'm not really a fan.
I'm still not sure how we're going to handle our guy "ruining" these beliefs for other kids. Should we tell him to let other little kids believe in Santa? Should we let him say "Santa's not real"? I'm imagining less than impressed feedback from other parents if our little guy goes running around telling all his friends that his parents are liars, but I'm not sure what else to do. ???
If they are liars, how's the kid at fault for exposing them as such? If they are worried that it may undermine their authority as parents, well... Should have thought of that before they started presenting fairy tales as the truth.
Quote from: Asmodean on July 04, 2012, 02:32:20 AM
If they are liars, how's the kid at fault for exposing them as such? If they are worried that it may undermine their authority as parents, well... Should have thought of that before they started presenting fairy tales as the truth.
Yeah, that's why I'm left with "not really sure what else I can do." I just don't relish conflict.
Ok then. Out with Winnie the Pooh, Beatrix Potter, Julia Donaldson and Roald Dahl. Out with Toy Story, Star Wars, Batman, Tom and Jerry and Thomas the Tank engine.
Good. Now that we're not indulging in fantasies we can feel much better about ourselves. Good work, team.
:-\
Really?
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 04, 2012, 05:51:08 AM
Ok then. Out with Winnie the Pooh, Beatrix Potter, Julia Donaldson and Roald Dahl. Out with Toy Story, Star Wars, Batman, Tom and Jerry and Thomas the Tank engine.
Good. Now that we're not indulging in fantasies we can feel much better about ourselves. Good work, team.
:-\
Really?
I think kids can indulge in fantasy and fiction without believing it to be reality.
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 04, 2012, 06:27:42 AM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 04, 2012, 05:51:08 AM
Ok then. Out with Winnie the Pooh, Beatrix Potter, Julia Donaldson and Roald Dahl. Out with Toy Story, Star Wars, Batman, Tom and Jerry and Thomas the Tank engine.
Good. Now that we're not indulging in fantasies we can feel much better about ourselves. Good work, team.
:-\
Really?
I think kids can indulge in fantasy and fiction without believing it to be reality.
Agreed.
Fictional stories and reality are two complerely different things.
Like OP said, only place babies come from are the vagina, unless you're a seahorse.
lying a horrible thing to children.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 04, 2012, 05:51:08 AM
Really?
Yes, really.
Personally, I like a lot of Sci-Fi (Well, maybe not Star Wars, but still quite a lot) and some cartoons. However, I am fully aware that they do not depict any known existing reality, so on a subjective level, I don't see how your comment has anything to do with what is being discussed.
I don't have a problem with the Santa/Easter Bunny/Tooth Fairy conspiracies. The kids enjoy it, it is motivated by the desire to give children a fun time and they do. I'm not aware of too many people tracing their problems back to these pretend games we play. I don't think children are embittered at finding they've been lied too, I think they understand the game. There's something to be said for children learning to be sceptical and that no one is entirely to be trusted.
QuoteJake: You lied to me.
Elwood: Wasn't lies, it was just... bullshit.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 04, 2012, 02:15:01 AM
I know this is a contentious issue, but I feel the same way. I have no desire to have our wee one believe in Santa/Tooth fairy/Easter Bunny. I've never said anything to any other parents because, hey, it's their kid and they're allowed to do what they want (and we all probably get enough unsolicited advice as it is), but yeah. I'm not really a fan.
I'm still not sure how we're going to handle our guy "ruining" these beliefs for other kids. Should we tell him to let other little kids believe in Santa? Should we let him say "Santa's not real"? I'm imagining less than impressed feedback from other parents if our little guy goes running around telling all his friends that his parents are liars, but I'm not sure what else to do. ???
I would strongly counsel you to play along. Kids love Santa and it is a magical experience for them. We are talking about youngsters here whose powers of reasoning and mental development have a long way to go. They are not mini adults to whom you are betraying some sacred trust to level up with them on every aspect of life. They are not going to believe in Santa forever. For virtually every kid looking back the time they believed in Santa is a treasured memory and they can laugh at the affectionate deception involved. The other point is that you risk your kid being seen as the odd one out amongst his peers and incurring odium or at least unpopularity. I think you risk giving your kid an unhappier childhood in the name of some misguided although well- meaning principle. For what it's worth, my own offspring were true believers in Santa who rewarded their faith liberally. Neither seem to harbour any grudge and both have independently opted for atheism.
I have to agree that it does little if any harm to let them believe in Santa etc.
^ This. Santa brings so much happiness and the kids grow up fast enough.
More generally, we can't live with each other, adults or kids, without quite a lot of lies as a social lubricant.
Kid: "Watch me, Mummy! Look, Look, I can throw the ball!"
Parent: "That was pathetic. Now I've got things to do, shut up."
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 04, 2012, 06:27:42 AM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 04, 2012, 05:51:08 AM
Ok then. Out with Winnie the Pooh, Beatrix Potter, Julia Donaldson and Roald Dahl. Out with Toy Story, Star Wars, Batman, Tom and Jerry and Thomas the Tank engine.
Good. Now that we're not indulging in fantasies we can feel much better about ourselves. Good work, team.
:-\
Really?
I think kids can indulge in fantasy and fiction without believing it to be reality.
Do you think that when young children watch Thomas the tank engine they believe they're seeing anything other than reality?
Young children have no concept of fantasy - everything is real to them.
By enabling fantasies children learn better to distinguish fact from fiction as they mature - and with it develop healthy and rewarding imaginations. Don't take that away from them.
And Santa and the tooth fairy is just an extension of that, just like playing cowboys and indians or dolly tea parties. Why do I indulge them thus? BECAUSE IT'S FUN!
Quote from: Asmodean on July 04, 2012, 06:46:14 AM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 04, 2012, 05:51:08 AM
Really?
Yes, really.
Personally, I like a lot of Sci-Fi (Well, maybe not Star Wars, but still quite a lot) and some cartoons. However, I am fully aware that they do not depict any known existing reality, so on a subjective level, I don't see how your comment has anything to do with what is being discussed.
Yes, of course you are fully aware, but the point is that young children do NOT have the same relationship with reality that you do. They do not descern. Every experience is real.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 04, 2012, 08:52:32 AM
Do you think that when young children watch Thomas the tank engine they believe they're seeing anything other than reality?
Young children have no concept of fantasy - everything is real to them.
By enabling fantasies children learn better to distinguish fact from fiction as they mature - and with it develop healthy and rewarding imaginations. Don't take that away from them.
And Santa and the tooth fairy is just an extension of that, just like playing cowboys and indians or dolly tea parties. Why do I indulge them thus? BECAUSE IT'S FUN!
I would disagree, I think children do have a sense of reality that is similar to our own but they haven't learned how things work yet, I always new that Thomas the Tank Engine wasn't real and my parents never told me he wasn't, maybe at some point I did think he was real but do not remember doing so, I do remember being infatuated with the show. In the examples you have given there isn't any harm as playing along with something that they will figure out for themselves. Same with Santa they will figure it out themselves and is enough media around that supports Santa that you do not even need to place that thought there, I think its quite adverse to training children like dogs with a reward system (even though it does work) as they expect something for nothing, by allowing the children's imagination to run away with the myth is fine but to start using that to get a child to behave better is rather messed up in my opinion.
It doesn't take a belief in Santa or any other story to enhance the imagination of a child, that's not the imagination part what is the imagination is the parts around the defined stories that children make up and enjoy, Santa and all the others are just the cardboard box, that box doesn't even have to exist if the child's imagination is strong enough, those stories are rather stifling as they are controlling the pattern of imagination which will one day be destroyed by another child who knows the truth.
Quote from: markmcdaniel on July 04, 2012, 08:26:06 AM
I have to agree that it does little if any harm to let them believe in Santa etc.
Well, I hold every lie my parents told me against them. Every single one, no matter how harmless. And combined, they make for a very impressive grudge.
Quote from: Asmodean on July 04, 2012, 01:15:13 PM
Quote from: markmcdaniel on July 04, 2012, 08:26:06 AM
I have to agree that it does little if any harm to let them believe in Santa etc.
Well, I hold every lie my parents told me against them. Every single one, no matter how harmless. And combined, they make for a very impressive grudge.
Your parents clearly have a case to answer.
Personally, I never remember believing in Santa or the Easter Bunny and I'm glad that I didn't.
I really do think that even young children can discern the difference between "pretend" and real. I can remember being pretty little and understanding this difference. I have no problem with imagination, Winnie-the-Pooh is still one of my favourite books and I loved the Hobbit when I was a kid, but I still think there's a big difference between explicitly trying to mislead children and not. I don't think saying "Yes, 'playing fairies' is a lot of fun, even though they're pretend" ruins it for them. Most children accept "pretend" pretty well. Unlike adults, they don't need to believe that something is 100% true in reality to enjoy it. My childhood wasn't ruined by not believing in a real Santa. If anything, I felt bad for my peers when they were utterly devastated at the deception (which some of them were). As an adult atheist who was raised in Christianity and went through a difficult de-conversion process, I just can't willingly set up fake figures as real for my kid.
Anyway, like I said, I know we're still probably the parenting minority on this, which is why I don't go around advertising this fact in real life. Most of the people I know who have kids the same age as my son have already started telling them "Ohhh Santa was here! Look what Santa left you!, etc." We haven't gone out of our way to say Santa's not real, but we don't really talk about him at Christmas, either (and wee man doesn't seem to suffer for it.)
When he gets older, I'll probably just explain that some kids believe in Santa and some kids don't, just like some kids believe in God and some kids don't.
Quote from: OldGit on July 04, 2012, 08:44:46 AM
More generally, we can't live with each other, adults or kids, without quite a lot of lies as a social lubricant.
Kid: "Watch me, Mummy! Look, Look, I can throw the ball!"
Parent: "That was pathetic. Now I've got things to do, shut up."
Haha, I'm never mean to my kid!
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 01:29:26 PM
Your parents clearly have a case to answer.
They wouldn't if they came clean when confronted in stead of maintaining a lie or concocting a new one.
I'm pretty blase about this topic. We don't celebrate Christmas or Easter at our house anyway, so I wouldn't have brought it up in the first place, but my parents and society in general seem to have introduced T to Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and I haven't really considered pulling him aside and saying "It's not true, you know." It seems like a bit of harmless fun to me. When he asks the "is Santa real?" question, I'll probably burst the bubble, but I just don't see any need to go out of my way to dash the Santa fun for him before he asks me.
Thinking of the "where do babies come from?" question, I know that T knows that babies grow in their mommies tummies, but I don't think we've yet discussed how they get out....
Quote from: Ali on July 04, 2012, 02:47:01 PM
but I don't think we've yet discussed how they get out....
Mommy gets good drugs, then a nice doctor with a weird beard sticks his hands between her legs, then there is wailing and gnashing of teeth and then, from mommy's vagina comes the baby... Sort of like piss. Only with drugs... And Doctor Weirdbeard... And pain and stretch marks.
The Asmo, he ought to write children's books, yes? :D
Quote from: Asmodean on July 04, 2012, 02:30:23 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 01:29:26 PM
Your parents clearly have a case to answer.
They wouldn't if they came clean when confronted in stead of maintaining a lie or concocting a new one.
I am not so sure.
I should also add that I don't go out of my way to be a total kill joy. For instance -- right now our son has a little fuzzy duck that he loves dearly. I'm sure he thinks that fuzzy duck loves him too, and I don't go out of my way to say "you know, fuzzy duck is just a stuffed animal and can't feel feelings. He doesn't love you." When he hugs his duck, I just say "awww, fuzzy duck. It's nice to be gentle and show love." But I also wouldn't go out of my way to say "Oh, fuzzy duck got up in the middle of the night and had this big adventure while you were asleep! Look! he left you all of these presents!" Maybe some parents would, but I wouldn't.
Like Ali, I'll probably just leave the Santa thing be until he asks me.
Also, Asmo, yes, you should totally write kids books. With disapproving Asmo faces on every page. :D Write a SANTA'S NOT REAL book and I'll read it to my son every Christmas. :P
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 03:00:16 PM
I am not so sure.
Because they are sort of family and, apparently, that is supposed to mean something, I do not hold grudges when the grudge-inducing cases are closed after the first warning.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 04, 2012, 03:06:07 PM
Also, Asmo, yes, you should totally write kids books. With disapproving Asmo faces on every page. :D
Also, make some nasty Asmo-shaped lollipops and put them in one of those rattly plastic bags and pack the whole thing in clear plastic so the potential customers can not sneak-read it before paying. 8)
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 04, 2012, 03:06:07 PM
I should also add that I don't go out of my way to be a total kill joy. For instance -- right now our son has a little fuzzy duck that he loves dearly. I'm sure he thinks that fuzzy duck loves him too, and I don't go out of my way to say "you know, fuzzy duck is just a stuffed animal and can't feel feelings. He doesn't love you." When he hugs his duck, I just say "awww, fuzzy duck. It's nice to be gentle and show love." But I also wouldn't go out of my way to say "Oh, fuzzy duck got up in the middle of the night and had this big adventure while you were asleep! Look! he left you all of these presents!" Maybe some parents would, but I wouldn't.
Like Ali, I'll probably just leave the Santa thing be until he asks me.
Also, Asmo, yes, you should totally write kids books. With disapproving Asmo faces on every page. :D Write a SANTA'S NOT REAL book and I'll read it to my son every Christmas. :P
That reminds me! Have you guys seen those creepy "Elf on the Shelf" toys that were all the rage the past couple of Christmases? Basically it's this elf doll, and the parents set it out somewhere where it can "watch" the kids so it can tell Santa if they are good or not. Already kind of creepy IMO. But then, parents will, like, move it around and pose it at night when the kids are asleep, and then pretend that the Elf is alive and running amok while the kids aren't looking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rtFsjncd7c&feature=related
Terrifying!
Quote from: Ali on July 04, 2012, 03:41:48 PM
Terrifying!
The Tiny Asmo would have looked at its face with a typical Asmo-expression, poked it in the eye, decided "Dislike", gotten even more Asmo-like in expression and... Ripped its head off.
Haha, I need a Tiny Asmo on the Shelf to protect us from satanic dolls.
The whole 'Santa' thing is fairly harmless, I agree, and I wouldn't bash a parent for playing out the charade. For myself (and granted, this may change if I ever decide to procreate), I see it as being used in a way not unlike the 'God' story: "If you keep putting your sister into the dust bin, Santa won't bring you anything nice for Christmas - he's always watching, you know." I've heard both stories of kids being horribly disillusioned when they realize that Santa isn't real, as well as those that just sort of 'grew out' of it. Those two things make me shy away from playing along. Maybe it has something to do with being almost compulsively honest, don't know.
It should not be overlooked that this also represents a valuable opportunity to earn additional income for overweight males.
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 07:31:26 PM
It should not be overlooked that this also represents a valuable opportunity to earn additional income for overweight males.
This is true! I did take wee man to get pictures taken with a mall Santa when he was 6 months old. I wouldn't prevent him in the future, if he wanted to again. :)
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 04, 2012, 07:33:19 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 07:31:26 PM
It should not be overlooked that this also represents a valuable opportunity to earn additional income for overweight males.
This is true! I did take wee man to get pictures taken with a mall Santa when he was 6 months old. I wouldn't prevent him in the future, if he wanted to again. :)
We took the kids to one in NZ when little M was just 1 and J 3. J wouldn't go anywhere near the huge, sweaty Santa in his winter coat - it was the middle of summer, of course. That's just so wrong!
A lot of people seem to think the santa/tooth fairy thing is so harmless, but why is lying to children okay?
Won't they be fine living their lives without being lied to?
We should stop thinking it's alright to make things up and hold them as reality. A child is a lot smarter than we think, just with a slightly less ability to perceive logic and reason. I really don't think that not having santa and other childhood lies in one's life will someone lessen the magical innocence of a childhood. I would of respected my parents far far more if they had not lied to me. My mother did the whole santa thing, but my father was totally against it. I appreciate that much from him.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 04, 2012, 10:40:22 PM
A lot of people seem to think the santa/tooth fairy thing is so harmless, but why is lying to children okay?
Won't they be fine living their lives without being lied to?
We should stop thinking it's alright to make things up and hold them as reality. A child is a lot smarter than we think, just with a slightly less ability to perceive logic and reason. I really don't think that not having santa and other childhood lies in one's life will someone lessen the magical innocence of a childhood. I would of respected my parents far far more if they had not lied to me. My mother did the whole santa thing, but my father was totally against it. I appreciate that much from him.
There is more of a gap between children's cognitive development and those of adults than you imply. Telling lies to children may often be a good idea to insulate them fom realities that they are not equipped to deal with.
Honesty tends anyway to be rather over- rated and too often is used as a justification by people who lack social intelligence or just want to inflict hurt on others.
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 11:02:35 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 04, 2012, 10:40:22 PM
A lot of people seem to think the santa/tooth fairy thing is so harmless, but why is lying to children okay?
Won't they be fine living their lives without being lied to?
We should stop thinking it's alright to make things up and hold them as reality. A child is a lot smarter than we think, just with a slightly less ability to perceive logic and reason. I really don't think that not having santa and other childhood lies in one's life will someone lessen the magical innocence of a childhood. I would of respected my parents far far more if they had not lied to me. My mother did the whole santa thing, but my father was totally against it. I appreciate that much from him.
There is more of a gap between children's cognitive development and those of adults than you imply. Telling lies to children may often be a good idea to insulate them fom realities that they are not equipped to deal with.
Honesty tends anyway to be rather over- rated and too often is used as a justification by people who lack social intelligence or just want to inflict hurt on others.
What would you use as an example of telling a beneficial lie to a child?
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 11:02:35 PM
Honesty tends anyway to be rather over- rated and too often is used as a justification by people who lack social intelligence or just want to inflict hurt on others.
It is also used as justification by people who don't care enough to lie or have little or nothing to gain from it.
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 04, 2012, 11:11:40 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 11:02:35 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 04, 2012, 10:40:22 PM
A lot of people seem to think the santa/tooth fairy thing is so harmless, but why is lying to children okay?
Won't they be fine living their lives without being lied to?
We should stop thinking it's alright to make things up and hold them as reality. A child is a lot smarter than we think, just with a slightly less ability to perceive logic and reason. I really don't think that not having santa and other childhood lies in one's life will someone lessen the magical innocence of a childhood. I would of respected my parents far far more if they had not lied to me. My mother did the whole santa thing, but my father was totally against it. I appreciate that much from him.
There is more of a gap between children's cognitive development and those of adults than you imply. Telling lies to children may often be a good idea to insulate them fom realities that they are not equipped to deal with.
Honesty tends anyway to be rather over- rated and too often is used as a justification by people who lack social intelligence or just want to inflict hurt on others.
What would you use as an example of telling a beneficial lie to a child?
"Oh wow, that is an awesome picture you drew of Oma!" (just told this one a few minutes ago.)
I mean, I actually do think it's awesome because he's only recently started drawing pictures with recognizable features like eyes and smiles and I think it's incredible. But if someone were to look at it objectively (like Asmo, for example) they probably wouldn't think it was "an awesome picture." But what am I going to say "Hmmm....only just barely recognizable human. D-"
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 11:02:35 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 04, 2012, 10:40:22 PM
A lot of people seem to think the santa/tooth fairy thing is so harmless, but why is lying to children okay?
Won't they be fine living their lives without being lied to?
We should stop thinking it's alright to make things up and hold them as reality. A child is a lot smarter than we think, just with a slightly less ability to perceive logic and reason. I really don't think that not having santa and other childhood lies in one's life will someone lessen the magical innocence of a childhood. I would of respected my parents far far more if they had not lied to me. My mother did the whole santa thing, but my father was totally against it. I appreciate that much from him.
There is more of a gap between children's cognitive development and those of adults than you imply. Telling lies to children may often be a good idea to insulate them fom realities that they are not equipped to deal with.
Honesty tends anyway to be rather over- rated and too often is used as a justification by people who lack social intelligence or just want to inflict hurt on others.
I don't think honesty is over-rated, and i dont feel any less intelligent by NOT doing it. ::)
I guess that easy, lol. Already thought of another - "Sweetie, daddy and I were just playing wheelbarrow . . . "
So we have lies to encourage and to protect . . . should there always be a reason to lie? Is entertainment enough?
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 04, 2012, 11:24:47 PM
I guess that easy, lol. Already thought of another - "Sweetie, daddy and I were just playing wheelbarrow . . . "
So we have lies to encourage and to protect . . . should there always be a reason to lie? Is entertainment enough?
There's nothing wrong with explaining sex to people. I guess some people feel embarrassed. I never knew why. Sex is natural with consent.
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 04, 2012, 11:11:40 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 11:02:35 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 04, 2012, 10:40:22 PM
A lot of people seem to think the santa/tooth fairy thing is so harmless, but why is lying to children okay?
Won't they be fine living their lives without being lied to?
We should stop thinking it's alright to make things up and hold them as reality. A child is a lot smarter than we think, just with a slightly less ability to perceive logic and reason. I really don't think that not having santa and other childhood lies in one's life will someone lessen the magical innocence of a childhood. I would of respected my parents far far more if they had not lied to me. My mother did the whole santa thing, but my father was totally against it. I appreciate that much from him.
There is more of a gap between children's cognitive development and those of adults than you imply. Telling lies to children may often be a good idea to insulate them fom realities that they are not equipped to deal with.
Honesty tends anyway to be rather over- rated and too often is used as a justification by people who lack social intelligence or just want to inflict hurt on others.
What would you use as an example of telling a beneficial lie to a child?
Your child asks you who do you love the most out of him/ her and his/ her siblings. You reply that you love them all equally, although this is not in fact true.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 04, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 11:02:35 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 04, 2012, 10:40:22 PM
A lot of people seem to think the santa/tooth fairy thing is so harmless, but why is lying to children okay?
Won't they be fine living their lives without being lied to?
We should stop thinking it's alright to make things up and hold them as reality. A child is a lot smarter than we think, just with a slightly less ability to perceive logic and reason. I really don't think that not having santa and other childhood lies in one's life will someone lessen the magical innocence of a childhood. I would of respected my parents far far more if they had not lied to me. My mother did the whole santa thing, but my father was totally against it. I appreciate that much from him.
There is more of a gap between children's cognitive development and those of adults than you imply. Telling lies to children may often be a good idea to insulate them fom realities that they are not equipped to deal with.
Honesty tends anyway to be rather over- rated and too often is used as a justification by people who lack social intelligence or just want to inflict hurt on others.
I don't think honesty is over-rated, and i dont feel any less intelligent by NOT doing it. ::)
Total honesty is best reserved for the Internet and even there it can be a perilous exercise.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 04, 2012, 11:45:31 PM
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 04, 2012, 11:24:47 PM
I guess that easy, lol. Already thought of another - "Sweetie, daddy and I were just playing wheelbarrow . . . "
So we have lies to encourage and to protect . . . should there always be a reason to lie? Is entertainment enough?
There's nothing wrong with explaining sex to people. I guess some people feel embarrassed. I never knew why. Sex is natural with consent.
There's nothing *wrong* with it, but maybe it's better to tell a three year old that mommy and daddy were wrestling and avoid a midnight sex-ed class with a toddler who won't really understand the concept anyways.
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 05, 2012, 12:42:46 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 04, 2012, 11:45:31 PM
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 04, 2012, 11:24:47 PM
I guess that easy, lol. Already thought of another - "Sweetie, daddy and I were just playing wheelbarrow . . . "
So we have lies to encourage and to protect . . . should there always be a reason to lie? Is entertainment enough?
There's nothing wrong with explaining sex to people. I guess some people feel embarrassed. I never knew why. Sex is natural with consent.
There's nothing *wrong* with it, but maybe it's better to tell a three year old that mommy and daddy were wrestling and avoid a midnight sex-ed class with a toddler who won't really understand the concept anyways.
Welp, i don't envy people with kids.
I plan on having a nice display of toys amongst many other things in my future home/apartment. (Well, a room for it. Not like a display in the foyer XDD )
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 11:59:01 PM
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 04, 2012, 11:11:40 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 11:02:35 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 04, 2012, 10:40:22 PM
A lot of people seem to think the santa/tooth fairy thing is so harmless, but why is lying to children okay?
Won't they be fine living their lives without being lied to?
We should stop thinking it's alright to make things up and hold them as reality. A child is a lot smarter than we think, just with a slightly less ability to perceive logic and reason. I really don't think that not having santa and other childhood lies in one's life will someone lessen the magical innocence of a childhood. I would of respected my parents far far more if they had not lied to me. My mother did the whole santa thing, but my father was totally against it. I appreciate that much from him.
There is more of a gap between children's cognitive development and those of adults than you imply. Telling lies to children may often be a good idea to insulate them fom realities that they are not equipped to deal with.
Honesty tends anyway to be rather over- rated and too often is used as a justification by people who lack social intelligence or just want to inflict hurt on others.
What would you use as an example of telling a beneficial lie to a child?
Your child asks you who do you love the most out of him/ her and his/ her siblings. You reply that you love them all equally, although this is not in fact true.
I knew it!!
BRB, I have to call my mom...
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 04, 2012, 11:11:40 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 11:02:35 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 04, 2012, 10:40:22 PM
A lot of people seem to think the santa/tooth fairy thing is so harmless, but why is lying to children okay?
Won't they be fine living their lives without being lied to?
We should stop thinking it's alright to make things up and hold them as reality. A child is a lot smarter than we think, just with a slightly less ability to perceive logic and reason. I really don't think that not having santa and other childhood lies in one's life will someone lessen the magical innocence of a childhood. I would of respected my parents far far more if they had not lied to me. My mother did the whole santa thing, but my father was totally against it. I appreciate that much from him.
There is more of a gap between children's cognitive development and those of adults than you imply. Telling lies to children may often be a good idea to insulate them fom realities that they are not equipped to deal with.
Honesty tends anyway to be rather over- rated and too often is used as a justification by people who lack social intelligence or just want to inflict hurt on others.
What would you use as an example of telling a beneficial lie to a child?
That you're sending their dog to a "farm."
Quote from: Budhorse4 on July 05, 2012, 02:40:40 AM
That you're sending their dog to a "farm."
...To be turned into sausage. The kid would be scarred for life. :(
Quote from: Ali on July 04, 2012, 11:17:57 PM
(like Asmo, for example)
The Asmo can appreciate some nicely done abstract art. 8)
Quote from: Budhorse4 on July 05, 2012, 02:40:40 AM
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 04, 2012, 11:11:40 PM
Quote from: En_Route on July 04, 2012, 11:02:35 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 04, 2012, 10:40:22 PM
A lot of people seem to think the santa/tooth fairy thing is so harmless, but why is lying to children okay?
Won't they be fine living their lives without being lied to?
We should stop thinking it's alright to make things up and hold them as reality. A child is a lot smarter than we think, just with a slightly less ability to perceive logic and reason. I really don't think that not having santa and other childhood lies in one's life will someone lessen the magical innocence of a childhood. I would of respected my parents far far more if they had not lied to me. My mother did the whole santa thing, but my father was totally against it. I appreciate that much from him.
There is more of a gap between children's cognitive development and those of adults than you imply. Telling lies to children may often be a good idea to insulate them fom realities that they are not equipped to deal with.
Honesty tends anyway to be rather over- rated and too often is used as a justification by people who lack social intelligence or just want to inflict hurt on others.
What would you use as an example of telling a beneficial lie to a child?
That you're sending their dog to a "farm."
Yeah, that's aweful. Kid should learn what death is sooner or later.
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 05, 2012, 12:42:46 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 04, 2012, 11:45:31 PM
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 04, 2012, 11:24:47 PM
I guess that easy, lol. Already thought of another - "Sweetie, daddy and I were just playing wheelbarrow . . . "
So we have lies to encourage and to protect . . . should there always be a reason to lie? Is entertainment enough?
There's nothing wrong with explaining sex to people. I guess some people feel embarrassed. I never knew why. Sex is natural with consent.
There's nothing *wrong* with it, but maybe it's better to tell a three year old that mommy and daddy were wrestling and avoid a midnight sex-ed class with a toddler who won't really understand the concept anyways.
Not entirely convinced this is the most reassuring of explanations. What about saying mummy and daddy were practising their farmyard imitations?
Quote from: En_Route on July 05, 2012, 07:51:09 PM
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 05, 2012, 12:42:46 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 04, 2012, 11:45:31 PM
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 04, 2012, 11:24:47 PM
I guess that easy, lol. Already thought of another - "Sweetie, daddy and I were just playing wheelbarrow . . . "
So we have lies to encourage and to protect . . . should there always be a reason to lie? Is entertainment enough?
There's nothing wrong with explaining sex to people. I guess some people feel embarrassed. I never knew why. Sex is natural with consent.
There's nothing *wrong* with it, but maybe it's better to tell a three year old that mommy and daddy were wrestling and avoid a midnight sex-ed class with a toddler who won't really understand the concept anyways.
Not entirely convinced this is the most reassuring of explanations. What about saying mummy and daddy were practising their farmyard imitations?
Hahahahahaha. "Don't worry, honey. Daddy is just pinning mommy down and doing something violent to her. No sex here!"
Quote from: BuddyThat you're sending their dog to a "farm."
IRL my father did that to me when I was about 8. I didn't believe the bastard, I knew damn well he took my Toby off somewhere and shot him. I never really forgot it.
Why would he shoot Toby? :'(
Quote from: Ali on July 05, 2012, 09:44:54 PM
Why would he shoot Toby? :'(
Euthanasia suspected
Quote from: OldGit on July 05, 2012, 08:59:39 PM
Quote from: BuddyThat you're sending their dog to a "farm."
IRL my father did that to me when I was about 8. I didn't believe the bastard, I knew damn well he took my Toby off somewhere and shot him. I never really forgot it.
When we have to put either one of our cats down, wee man will be told what's going to happen and will be given the option of coming along. When I worked at the vet clinic, I saw a number of children say good-bye to their pets. Some of them handled it better than their parents. Our oldest cat is only 6, so it'll be a while yet, but I wouldn't lie to him about this either, I don't think.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 05, 2012, 10:12:47 PM
Quote from: OldGit on July 05, 2012, 08:59:39 PM
Quote from: BuddyThat you're sending their dog to a "farm."
IRL my father did that to me when I was about 8. I didn't believe the bastard, I knew damn well he took my Toby off somewhere and shot him. I never really forgot it.
When we have to put either one of our cats down, wee man will be told what's going to happen and will be given the option of coming along. When I worked at the vet clinic, I saw a number of children say good-bye to their pets. Some of them handled it better than their parents. Our oldest cat is only 6, so it'll be a while yet, but I wouldn't lie to him about this either, I don't think.
I know children are children, but they should be taken a bit more seriously with their feelings and not 'shielded' so much from reality.
Don't get me wrong, i don't think we should shove everything horrible in their face, but i lost a lot of pets as a child, and i am thankful my mom always let me know they were dying or sick so i could say goodbye.
I miss them all dearly, but i am sooo happy i got to have that closure.
Quote from: AliWhy would he shoot Toby? :'(
Stated reason: the dog was out of control and kept running into the road and might involve us in a lawsuit.
Real reason: to hurt me, as usual.
The dog was young and healthy.
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 10:19:40 AM
Real reason: to hurt me, as usual.
Has FSM refused to hear your pleas for vengeance? Because The Asmo could listen... For a price ;D
Quote from: OldGit on July 05, 2012, 08:59:39 PM
Quote from: BuddyThat you're sending their dog to a "farm."
IRL my father did that to me when I was about 8. I didn't believe the bastard, I knew damn well he took my Toby off somewhere and shot him. I never really forgot it.
Same with my brother's dog Angus. He was mean though. Still hurts because I believed that he went to a farm until I found out what it really meant a few weeks ago. ;-;
Quote from: AsmoHas FSM refused to hear your pleas for vengeance? Because The Asmo could listen... For a price ;D
How much? :-\
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 10:19:40 AM
Quote from: AliWhy would he shoot Toby? :'(
Stated reason: the dog was out of control and kept running into the road and might involve us in a lawsuit.
Real reason: to hurt me, as usual.
The dog was young and healthy.
That's awful >:(
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 10:19:40 AM
Quote from: AliWhy would he shoot Toby? :'(
Stated reason: the dog was out of control and kept running into the road and might involve us in a lawsuit.
Real reason: to hurt me, as usual.
The dog was young and healthy.
What a fucking bastard!
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 10:19:40 AM
Quote from: AliWhy would he shoot Toby? :'(
Stated reason: the dog was out of control and kept running into the road and might involve us in a lawsuit.
Real reason: to hurt me, as usual.
The dog was young and healthy.
Sad how twisted and broken people can be and how that damage is transmitted to the next generation. I had an emotionally abusive father myself and the legacy remains, though I have largely come to terms with it. I did feel hate at the time but now I understand the demons that drove him and see he was a victim of circumstance too.
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 10:19:40 AM
Quote from: AliWhy would he shoot Toby? :'(
Stated reason: the dog was out of control and kept running into the road and might involve us in a lawsuit.
Real reason: to hurt me, as usual.
The dog was young and healthy.
((((Git)))))
also, ((((E_R))))
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 05, 2012, 10:12:47 PM
When we have to put either one of our cats down, wee man will be told what's going to happen and will be given the option of coming along. When I worked at the vet clinic, I saw a number of children say good-bye to their pets. Some of them handled it better than their parents. Our oldest cat is only 6, so it'll be a while yet, but I wouldn't lie to him about this either, I don't think.
When my daughter was about 4.5 her best friend at nursery was a little girl with mild Downs and some other underlying health problems. The little girl died and M was left a little confused, but we helped her through it with compassion and honesty. I thought it would help to take M to the funeral; she was the only pupil invited. It was a proper burial (rather than a behind-the-curtain cremation) which probably helped. I explained everything I could in terms she could relate to. She could see the emotions of the Mother which I thought might disturb her a little, but she accepted my explanations of why she was acting strangely.
A couple of years previously I'd lost my 16y/o cousin to a car crash. Several weeks after her friend's funeral M asked me about my cousin and we discussed how her death affected me. I cried. She was very sympathetic (as is her way) and I noticed an emerging empathy far beyond her years.
M sometimes talks about her friend, and the tone is always very positive and mature. There is no 'elephant in the room' when the subject of death is broached. She has developed a very healthy concept of death, and having been so close to it from an early age seems to have struck a fine balance between pragmatism and sensitivity. She couldn't have got there alone!
I noticed that 'Elephant' when chatting with the other parents, most of whom were unwilling to engage with me on the subject with their children within earshot. I know that's their parenting choice but I cant say it'd work for me or my children.
As for my son? Well, he's just more interested in Darth Maul and doesnt have the time for such frivolity...
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 12:35:46 PM
How much? :-\
Well... The Asmo has been known to make some minor deals for a soul... No, wait... That was the devil...
Hmm... A hundred slaves. Yes, that should be a proper price. :D
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 06, 2012, 02:18:07 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 05, 2012, 10:12:47 PM
When we have to put either one of our cats down, wee man will be told what's going to happen and will be given the option of coming along. When I worked at the vet clinic, I saw a number of children say good-bye to their pets. Some of them handled it better than their parents. Our oldest cat is only 6, so it'll be a while yet, but I wouldn't lie to him about this either, I don't think.
When my daughter was about 4.5 her best friend at nursery was a little girl with mild Downs and some other underlying health problems. The little girl died and M was left a little confused, but we helped her through it with compassion and honesty. I thought it would help to take M to the funeral; she was the only pupil invited. It was a proper burial (rather than a behind-the-curtain cremation) which probably helped. I explained everything I could in terms she could relate to. She could see the emotions of the Mother which I thought might disturb her a little, but she accepted my explanations of why she was acting strangely.
A couple of years previously I'd lost my 16y/o cousin to a car crash. Several weeks after her friend's funeral M asked me about my cousin and we discussed how her death affected me. I cried. She was very sympathetic (as is her way) and I noticed an emerging empathy far beyond her years.
M sometimes talks about her friend, and the tone is always very positive and mature. There is no 'elephant in the room' when the subject of death is broached. She has developed a very healthy concept of death, and having been so close to it from an early age seems to have struck a fine balance between pragmatism and sensitivity. She couldn't have got there alone!
I noticed that 'Elephant' when chatting with the other parents, most of whom were unwilling to engage with me on the subject with their children within earshot. I know that's their parenting choice but I cant say it'd work for me or my children.
As for my son? Well, he's just more interested in Darth Maul and doesnt have the time for such frivolity...
It sounds to me like you handled it quite well and your daughter is better off for it.
I'm also not one to "protect" my son from the reality and concept of death. When Hubby's grandfather died, we talked to T about it and he attended the funeral. Several people I know asked me if I was worried that it would upset him, particularly to see the adults he knows crying. My thought is that it's okay to be sad and cry when someone dies, and I don't mind him knowing that.
A few weeks ago, we (T & I) somehow got on the subject of my grandpa who died before T was born. He asked me if I lived with my mom and dad whne he died, and I said no. T got kind of teary eyed, and said something along the lines of "I'm sad that you didn't have anyone to be with you when your grandpa died." It was so stinking sweet. Again, empathy.
Quote from: Ali on July 06, 2012, 03:52:58 PM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 06, 2012, 02:18:07 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 05, 2012, 10:12:47 PM
When we have to put either one of our cats down, wee man will be told what's going to happen and will be given the option of coming along. When I worked at the vet clinic, I saw a number of children say good-bye to their pets. Some of them handled it better than their parents. Our oldest cat is only 6, so it'll be a while yet, but I wouldn't lie to him about this either, I don't think.
When my daughter was about 4.5 her best friend at nursery was a little girl with mild Downs and some other underlying health problems. The little girl died and M was left a little confused, but we helped her through it with compassion and honesty. I thought it would help to take M to the funeral; she was the only pupil invited. It was a proper burial (rather than a behind-the-curtain cremation) which probably helped. I explained everything I could in terms she could relate to. She could see the emotions of the Mother which I thought might disturb her a little, but she accepted my explanations of why she was acting strangely.
A couple of years previously I'd lost my 16y/o cousin to a car crash. Several weeks after her friend's funeral M asked me about my cousin and we discussed how her death affected me. I cried. She was very sympathetic (as is her way) and I noticed an emerging empathy far beyond her years.
M sometimes talks about her friend, and the tone is always very positive and mature. There is no 'elephant in the room' when the subject of death is broached. She has developed a very healthy concept of death, and having been so close to it from an early age seems to have struck a fine balance between pragmatism and sensitivity. She couldn't have got there alone!
I noticed that 'Elephant' when chatting with the other parents, most of whom were unwilling to engage with me on the subject with their children within earshot. I know that's their parenting choice but I cant say it'd work for me or my children.
As for my son? Well, he's just more interested in Darth Maul and doesnt have the time for such frivolity...
It sounds to me like you handled it quite well and your daughter is better off for it.
I'm also not one to "protect" my son from the reality and concept of death. When Hubby's grandfather died, we talked to T about it and he attended the funeral. Several people I know asked me if I was worried that it would upset him, particularly to see the adults he knows crying. My thought is that it's okay to be sad and cry when someone dies, and I don't mind him knowing that.
A few weeks ago, we (T & I) somehow got on the subject of my grandpa who died before T was born. He asked me if I lived with my mom and dad whne he died, and I said no. T got kind of teary eyed, and said something along the lines of "I'm sad that you didn't have anyone to be with you when your grandpa died." It was so stinking sweet. Again, empathy.
These are both sweet stories. I know some adults who were completely sheltered from death as children and they seem to have a much harder time processing it now. Of course, it's always going to suck when a loved one dies, but I think there's a tendency in our society to set death up as something that's "unnatural."
Quote from: Asmodean on July 06, 2012, 11:35:33 AM
Quote from: OldGit on July 06, 2012, 10:19:40 AM
Real reason: to hurt me, as usual.
Has FSM refused to hear your pleas for vengeance? Because The Asmo could listen... For a price ;D
Is it just money you want or other material things? ;D
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 06, 2012, 11:59:53 PM
Is it just money you want or other material things? ;D
Slaves. Lotsa' them. :D
Quote from: Asmodean on July 07, 2012, 12:10:29 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 06, 2012, 11:59:53 PM
Is it just money you want or other material things? ;D
Slaves. Lotsa' them. :D
I want to be a minion. Or at least a mode of transportation: PONY STYLE >D
Dye that mane gray and... Yes, yes, why not... (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsnprofiles.com%2Fforums%2Fpublic%2Fstyle_emoticons%2Fdefault%2Fhmm.gif&hash=a26bcbdd040fcf4cd6dcb2c4a0fa469e868177fd)
Quote from: Asmodean on July 07, 2012, 01:11:02 AM
Dye that mane gray and... Yes, yes, why not... (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsnprofiles.com%2Fforums%2Fpublic%2Fstyle_emoticons%2Fdefault%2Fhmm.gif&hash=a26bcbdd040fcf4cd6dcb2c4a0fa469e868177fd)
Maybe someone with awesome photoshop skills *COUGHPUDDINGORBUDHORSE* could do my mane gray.
Quote from: Asmodean on July 07, 2012, 12:10:29 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 06, 2012, 11:59:53 PM
Is it just money you want or other material things? ;D
Slaves. Lotsa' them. :D
I have one, but she has a habit of strangling her amorphous blob overlords.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcollider.com%2Fuploads%2FimageGallery%2FStar_Wars_%2Fslave_leia_image_carrie_fisher_s.jpg&hash=9aedf7d42768f39afe537c95c918a9a508c4eebd)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 07, 2012, 01:33:00 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on July 07, 2012, 01:11:02 AM
Dye that mane gray and... Yes, yes, why not... (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsnprofiles.com%2Fforums%2Fpublic%2Fstyle_emoticons%2Fdefault%2Fhmm.gif&hash=a26bcbdd040fcf4cd6dcb2c4a0fa469e868177fd)
Maybe someone with awesome photoshop skills *COUGHPUDDINGORBUDHORSE* could do my mane gray.
Sorry, no computer. Gonna have to IOU that one. ;)
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 07, 2012, 01:53:10 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on July 07, 2012, 12:10:29 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 06, 2012, 11:59:53 PM
Is it just money you want or other material things? ;D
Slaves. Lotsa' them. :D
I have one, but she has a habit of strangling her amorphous blob overlords.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcollider.com%2Fuploads%2FimageGallery%2FStar_Wars_%2Fslave_leia_image_carrie_fisher_s.jpg&hash=9aedf7d42768f39afe537c95c918a9a508c4eebd)
No neck - no worries :D
Quote from: Budhorse4 on July 07, 2012, 02:04:17 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 07, 2012, 01:33:00 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on July 07, 2012, 01:11:02 AM
Dye that mane gray and... Yes, yes, why not... (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsnprofiles.com%2Fforums%2Fpublic%2Fstyle_emoticons%2Fdefault%2Fhmm.gif&hash=a26bcbdd040fcf4cd6dcb2c4a0fa469e868177fd)
Maybe someone with awesome photoshop skills *COUGHPUDDINGORBUDHORSE* could do my mane gray.
Sorry, no computer. Gonna have to IOU that one. ;)
aww ok :)
Quote from: Dobermonster on July 07, 2012, 01:53:10 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on July 07, 2012, 12:10:29 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 06, 2012, 11:59:53 PM
Is it just money you want or other material things? ;D
Slaves. Lotsa' them. :D
I have one, but she has a habit of strangling her amorphous blob overlords.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcollider.com%2Fuploads%2FimageGallery%2FStar_Wars_%2Fslave_leia_image_carrie_fisher_s.jpg&hash=9aedf7d42768f39afe537c95c918a9a508c4eebd)
Do you rent her out? That's exactly how I want to go.
Thanks for the thought, Asmo, but 100 slaves is more than I can afford. I could give you a dead badger.
Quote from: OldGit on July 07, 2012, 01:48:49 PM
Thanks for the thought, Asmo, but 100 slaves is more than I can afford. I could give you a dead badger.
With maggots? :D
Hahaha, Oops! I posted in the wrong thread!
Nothing to see. ;D
I remember talking to my daughter when she was little about hippos and their eating habits. She thought they ate fish, I told her they didn't she looked at me in a cute quizzical manner, weighing this and that. I'd led her wrong in the past, I never did detach her nose so it was reasonable she doubted me. I think you should teach a kid not to be gullible, test their credulity.
I would have guessed fish too. Off to Google.
Quote from: AsmoWith maggots? :D
It's hard to check without stopping the car, but I expect they have plenty of maggots when they're a month old.
Quote from: Ali on July 07, 2012, 03:12:33 PM
I would have guessed fish too. Off to Google.
You could just trust me.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 07, 2012, 03:16:13 PM
Quote from: Ali on July 07, 2012, 03:12:33 PM
I would have guessed fish too. Off to Google.
You could just trust me.
You've never detached my nose so.....
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 07, 2012, 03:16:13 PM
Quote from: Ali on July 07, 2012, 03:12:33 PM
I would have guessed fish too. Off to Google.
You could just trust me.
What do Hippos eat, Oh Magical Puddin'?
Quote from: OldGit on July 07, 2012, 03:13:37 PM
It's hard to check without stopping the car, but I expect they have plenty of maggots when they're a month old.
Tempting... (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.onskebarn.no%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fhmm.gif&hash=f2815a102bf108a0565f000a8f50699b14d5f5f4)
I don't see a downside in participating in christmas (santa) with your child, as long as it is not presented as real. Pretending is a huge part of childhood. I remember getting lost in it. The dinosaur toys were "real", although I knew they were not. There was a fine line between fantasy and reality as a child. It was as if we had control of the "line" and were able to blur it to blend reality with fantasy. If I had a child, I would introduce the story of Santa as something we pretend is real. I see no harm in that at all. Personally I would not say the words "Santa is not real". Maybe I'm over thinking it, but I feel like that would lessen the child's ability, or desire, to blend reality with fantasy.
The alternitave, however, can be devastating. I remember crying and being mad at my parents after I learned the truth. I felt betrayed. I also felt like an idiot in front of my friends. Someone (en-route maybe? I'm too lazy to check, sorry if I twist your words) said presenting Santa as reality is beneficial in that it provides a bit of distrust, giving the child the ability to discern fact and fiction. There are other ways to provide that ability. Perhaps you could tell the child you are going to tell a few lies throughout the day and he or she has to try to recognize them? This example is just off the top of my head and I'm sure other examples might be better, but my point is that it doesn't end badly. In fact it might be rewarding for the child to recognize the lie. It might give them a sense of pride as opposed to being humiliated and felling like an idiot.
Quote from: Genericguy on July 07, 2012, 04:13:57 PM
Someone (en-route maybe? I'm too lazy to check, sorry if I twist your words) said presenting Santa as reality is beneficial in that it provides a bit of distrust, giving the child the ability to discern fact and fiction.
I also feel like this isn't necessarily a lesson that children need to learn from their parents. There's a whole lot of treachery out there in the world and I know for a fact that wee man will be exposed to it. I'd rather he feel like I'm one of the few people that he can trust entirely, rather than trying to impart some kind of lesson about not being gullible, when I'm sure there'll be enough real-world experiences to talk about with him regarding that.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 07, 2012, 06:16:26 PM
Quote from: Genericguy on July 07, 2012, 04:13:57 PM
Someone (en-route maybe? I'm too lazy to check, sorry if I twist your words) said presenting Santa as reality is beneficial in that it provides a bit of distrust, giving the child the ability to discern fact and fiction.
I also feel like this isn't necessarily a lesson that children need to learn from their parents. There's a whole lot of treachery out there in the world and I know for a fact that wee man will be exposed to it. I'd rather he feel like I'm one of the few people that he can trust entirely, rather than trying to impart some kind of lesson about not being gullible, when I'm sure there'll be enough real-world experiences to talk about with him regarding that.
Not a parent, but I imagine a good way to encourage inquiry and skepticism in children is to simply teach them to investigate things for themselves.
e.g. If they come home from school saying little Jimmy told them grass is green because its filled with thousands of tiny leprachauns, open a book on biology and read with them about chlorophyll. Ask them what qualities might make someone a good or bad source of information. Get them to think about methods of determining what is true and what isn't.
I was the epitomy of a curious child, and fortunately my parents encouraged me to question and research and find things out for myself. Thanks to that, I was able to overcome years of indoctrination.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 07, 2012, 06:16:26 PM
Quote from: Genericguy on July 07, 2012, 04:13:57 PM
Someone (en-route maybe? I'm too lazy to check, sorry if I twist your words) said presenting Santa as reality is beneficial in that it provides a bit of distrust, giving the child the ability to discern fact and fiction.
I also feel like this isn't necessarily a lesson that children need to learn from their parents. There's a whole lot of treachery out there in the world and I know for a fact that wee man will be exposed to it. I'd rather he feel like I'm one of the few people that he can trust entirely, rather than trying to impart some kind of lesson about not being gullible, when I'm sure there'll be enough real-world experiences to talk about with him regarding that.
Yeah, people in this world lie, cheat, and scam.
As parents, why would you do the same to your children?
People who lie to their children deserve all the mistrust and bad behavior that come with their idiocy.
I feel like there should be a distinction made between lying to your children and playing with them. I kind of see Santa as the latter.
As another example, when we are driving to daycare, T often notices when you can still see the moon during the day. He and I make up stories about how the moon's mommy wants him to go to bed, but he doesn't want to. I'm almost certain that I started this play (i.e. the first time T said "Why is the moon there? I thought the moon only stayed out at night?" I think I said "Silly moon! Doesn't he know he should be in bed?") You could say I'm "lying" to him by not telling him the actual science behind why you can sometimes see the moon in the morning and making up stories about the Moon and his Mommy, but I've always just considered it to be light hearted play, in the understanding that when T is older, he will know that the moon isn't really a person, doesn't really "go to bed", doesn't have desires to stay awake, et cetera.
I consider the whole Santa thing to be along the same lines; parents aren't trying to cheat or lie to their kids, they're just playing with them.
...And why not attempt to explain the actual science to him? It's far, FAR more fascinating than "The Moon has a mommy", although that phrase can certainly be used as a parallel in explaining it to someone that young.
Quote from: Asmodean on July 07, 2012, 07:58:28 PM
...And why not attempt to explain the actual science to him? It's far, FAR more fascinating than "The Moon has a mommy", although that phrase can certainly be used as a parallel in explaining it to someone that young.
*Snicker* I think part of it is probably that I don't actually
know the science behind it, and haven't yet bothered to look it up. ;D
But in truth, again, I was playing with him. I like it when he uses his imagination to make up stories, and when I use my imagination to make up stories, we play off of each other. Telling each other stories is a passtime that I greatly enjoy and value.
Sure, and that is a good way of passing time. However, is not religion, for example, pretty much basing one's view of reality on stories of poor factual quality?
In your case, you could have demonstrated seeing both the Moon and the Sun to him. Grab two apples, oranges, fists, Asmos or any other roundish appliances and hold one within his field of view and the other behind his head. Rotate until the first is obscured and the second is seen. In parallel, that is when you only see one celestial body. Now, alter the angles somewhat so that there is a time when both objects are in the field of view. There you go - the moon and the sun both visible.
Of course, the position of those is also relevant because the moon has to be rather well lit in order to be visible with a naked eye through the atmosphere, that is another story.
I suppose i just dont understand lying to children, even if you are doing a 'playful lie."
don't get me wrong, i am a damn fun person. I mean, i RP, LARP, and cosplay. But for some reason, i do like to explain the truth and science to children rather than make something up.
Quote from: Ali on July 07, 2012, 07:55:05 PM
I feel like there should be a distinction made between lying to your children and playing with them. I kind of see Santa as the latter.
As another example, when we are driving to daycare, T often notices when you can still see the moon during the day. He and I make up stories about how the moon's mommy wants him to go to bed, but he doesn't want to. I'm almost certain that I started this play (i.e. the first time T said "Why is the moon there? I thought the moon only stayed out at night?" I think I said "Silly moon! Doesn't he know he should be in bed?") You could say I'm "lying" to him by not telling him the actual science behind why you can sometimes see the moon in the morning and making up stories about the Moon and his Mommy, but I've always just considered it to be light hearted play, in the understanding that when T is older, he will know that the moon isn't really a person, doesn't really "go to bed", doesn't have desires to stay awake, et cetera.
I consider the whole Santa thing to be along the same lines; parents aren't trying to cheat or lie to their kids, they're just playing with them.
I think it depends on the matter of degree, though. With the moon thing, your son brought it up, it was a bit of fun, and he probably didn't think you were serious about a moon "bed time." But Santa isn't an invention of a child's healthy imagination, parents introduce it to them and some of them really insist that it's real. Like I said before, I don't go out of my way to be a total kill-joy all of the time, but the line between natural silly childhood fun and deliberate deception is something I think about (and it's not always a clear line, for sure).
I think part of reason I feel so strongly about it is because some parents really go to the extreme in keeping the illusion alive. It gets beyond a silly story for fun. I once worked with a woman who was in a total panic because she didn't know how to keep her 10-year old still believing in Santa. It got to the point where she was regularly "planting evidence", she had one of our co-workers forging notes on Santa's behalf and she was opening up her son's letters to Santa (which he specifically told her he didn't want her to read). The whole thing was a bit much and I kept wondering what it was all for?
Quote from: AliBut in truth, again, I was playing with him. I like it when he uses his imagination to make up stories, and when I use my imagination to make up stories, we play off of each other. Telling each other stories is a passtime that I greatly enjoy and value.
This kind of game is huge fun, it bonds the parent and child together and stretches the kid's imagination. There's no need to go anywhere near misinforming the kid or discouraging the application of logic. I still tell my grandson that his ears will go purple if he doesn't eat his food - stuff like that - and he thinks it's a great joke. He'll likely come back and tell me my nose has just fallen off. He doesn't take it any more seriously than I do; it's not going to turn him into a Mormon or anything but it does make him love his silly grandpa.
I agree, silly is good ;D
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 07, 2012, 08:14:54 PM
Quote from: Ali on July 07, 2012, 07:55:05 PM
I feel like there should be a distinction made between lying to your children and playing with them. I kind of see Santa as the latter.
As another example, when we are driving to daycare, T often notices when you can still see the moon during the day. He and I make up stories about how the moon's mommy wants him to go to bed, but he doesn't want to. I'm almost certain that I started this play (i.e. the first time T said "Why is the moon there? I thought the moon only stayed out at night?" I think I said "Silly moon! Doesn't he know he should be in bed?") You could say I'm "lying" to him by not telling him the actual science behind why you can sometimes see the moon in the morning and making up stories about the Moon and his Mommy, but I've always just considered it to be light hearted play, in the understanding that when T is older, he will know that the moon isn't really a person, doesn't really "go to bed", doesn't have desires to stay awake, et cetera.
I consider the whole Santa thing to be along the same lines; parents aren't trying to cheat or lie to their kids, they're just playing with them.
I think it depends on the matter of degree, though. With the moon thing, your son brought it up, it was a bit of fun, and he probably didn't think you were serious about a moon "bed time." But Santa isn't an invention of a child's healthy imagination, parents introduce it to them and some of them really insist that it's real. Like I said before, I don't go out of my way to be a total kill-joy all of the time, but the line between natural silly childhood fun and deliberate deception is something I think about (and it's not always a clear line, for sure).
I think part of reason I feel so strongly about it is because some parents really go to the extreme in keeping the illusion alive. It gets beyond a silly story for fun. I once worked with a woman who was in a total panic because she didn't know how to keep her 10-year old still believing in Santa. It got to the point where she was regularly "planting evidence", she had one of our co-workers forging notes on Santa's behalf and she was opening up her son's letters to Santa (which he specifically told her he didn't want her to read). The whole thing was a bit much and I kept wondering what it was all for?
Your coworker is really fucking pathetic. The kind of parent i completely detest.
I think Ali makes a fair point. I mean, she isn't forcing T to believe that the moon has a mother. Plus, even if she did explain the science of why the moon is still out in the day, he might not understand just yet. As he gets older, those stories could slowly morph into actual facts to explain things to him. I see no problem with Ali making stories with T to help him understand the world.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 07, 2012, 08:10:47 PM
I suppose i just dont understand lying to children, even if you are doing a 'playful lie."
don't get me wrong, i am a damn fun person. I mean, i RP, LARP, and cosplay. But for some reason, i do like to explain the truth and science to children rather than make something up.
Do we think that the misery of finding out the moon doesn't have a mummy outweighs the FUN to be had by exploring the story that it does? The facts of science will always be there to be soaked-in when they're ready. The magic in the fun and wonder of make-believe only works if the factual truth is still a mystery. Once you have broken the spell with factual explanation you can never again enjoy the exploration together in the same wondrous way - and that's everyone's loss.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 07, 2012, 09:25:09 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 07, 2012, 08:10:47 PM
I suppose i just dont understand lying to children, even if you are doing a 'playful lie."
don't get me wrong, i am a damn fun person. I mean, i RP, LARP, and cosplay. But for some reason, i do like to explain the truth and science to children rather than make something up.
Do we think that the misery of finding out the moon doesn't have a mummy outweighs the FUN to be had by exploring the story that it does? The facts of science will always be there to be soaked-in when they're ready. The magic in the fun and wonder of make-believe only works if the factual truth is still a mystery. Once you have broken the spell with factual explanation you can never again enjoy the exploration together in the same wondrous way - and that's everyone's loss.
I'm with you on this. Kids are not merely smaller versions of adults and treating them as if they were is a category mistake which leads to a kind of po- faced political correctness which is entirely misconceived. I would also add that lying even to adults is not necessarily detrimental to their well being.
I'm sorry, but all this "Breaking spells with facts" just sounds like a pathetic excuse for the lack of own imagination to me.
There is so much "wonder" and "magic" out there, even without going to the fringes of science. And if you do go there... Ooh, the possibilities are near-limitless. Imagining past or future, or even an alternative present, other worlds or artificial intelligence, or anything we can not see, explain and/or be sure of, is far better quality fun than santas and planets having parents, if you ask me.
If you don't know, find out. If you can not, use your imagination, but be prepared to be wrong. Constructive imagination fuels invention, art and discovery. The other kind comes easier, but fuels religions and other superstitions and in my experience, kills off what a person may have had of the first.
Quote from: Asmodean on July 07, 2012, 10:10:17 PM
I'm sorry, but all this "Breaking spells with facts" just sounds like a pathetic excuse for the lack of own imagination to me.
There is so much "wonder" and "magic" out there, even without going to the fringes of science. And if you do go there... Ooh, the possibilities are near-limitless. Imagining past or future, or even an alternative present, other worlds or artificial intelligence, or anything we can not see, explain and/or be sure of, is far better quality fun than santas and planets having parents, if you ask me.
If you don't know, find out. If you can not, use your imagination, but be prepared to be wrong. Constructive imagination fuels invention, art and discovery. The other kind comes easier, but fuels religions and other superstitions and in my experience, kills off what a person may have had of the first.
It also seems like a weird stance to take as an atheist. I didn't believe in Santa was I was a kid, but I was taught to believe in God. I'm sure my father thought it was a beautiful thing - his little girl praying, showing unquestioning love towards a figure she believed watched over her, protected her. A child's image of God is probably more beautiful than anything that actually exists in reality. It is very pure.
I wouldn't call that an argument for fostering the belief, though. And I really don't see much difference in actively fostering a belief in God and Santa, to be honest (omniscient supernatural father-figure - rewards good behaviour, punishes bad behaviour, works in "mysterious ways", etc). I certainly don't know how it would be "misguided" to spare my son the experience of believing in either.
It's not just religion and santa - it's all fairy tales. I see not regarding and enjoying them as fiction as harmful because, among other things, in their simplicity, they take the focus away from the far more intricate (and to me, far more interesting) natural world.
Honestly, I think you guys are taking this whole thing way too seriously and making it way more dire than it needs to be. Lying, scamming, discouraging logical thought and true imagination..... wooooo, scary stuff. *cue monster movie music*
Right now, my Husband is scratching T's back and calling him "Wuffie." Don't worry, scientifically speaking, I'm pretty sure that T doesn't actually think he's a dog named Wuffie. Make believe is just fun for little kids, and they really really like it when you play along with them. It sincerely amazes me that this is controversial.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 07, 2012, 10:16:32 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on July 07, 2012, 10:10:17 PM
I'm sorry, but all this "Breaking spells with facts" just sounds like a pathetic excuse for the lack of own imagination to me.
There is so much "wonder" and "magic" out there, even without going to the fringes of science. And if you do go there... Ooh, the possibilities are near-limitless. Imagining past or future, or even an alternative present, other worlds or artificial intelligence, or anything we can not see, explain and/or be sure of, is far better quality fun than santas and planets having parents, if you ask me.
If you don't know, find out. If you can not, use your imagination, but be prepared to be wrong. Constructive imagination fuels invention, art and discovery. The other kind comes easier, but fuels religions and other superstitions and in my experience, kills off what a person may have had of the first.
It also seems like a weird stance to take as an atheist. I didn't believe in Santa was I was a kid, but I was taught to believe in God. I'm sure my father thought it was a beautiful thing - his little girl praying, showing unquestioning love towards a figure she believed watched over her, protected her. A child's image of God is probably more beautiful than anything that actually exists in reality. It is very pure.
I wouldn't call that an argument for fostering the belief, though. And I really don't see much difference in actively fostering a belief in God and Santa, to be honest (omniscient supernatural father-figure - rewards good behaviour, punishes bad behaviour, works in "mysterious ways", etc). I certainly don't know how it would be "misguided" to spare my son the experience of believing in either.
I don't think being an atheist carries with it any corollary beliefs. Being an atheist doesn't prevent me from believing anything else I believe to be the case. I wouldn't say that telling your child there is no such thing as Santa is misguided. I would say that to argue that telling your child that Danta exists is somehow damaging to him/ her is misguided.
Quote from: Ali on July 07, 2012, 11:09:51 PM
Honestly, I think you guys are taking this whole thing way too seriously and making it way more dire than it needs to be. Lying, scamming, discouraging logical thought and true imagination..... wooooo, scary stuff. *cue monster movie music*
Right now, my Husband is scratching T's back and calling him "Wuffie." Don't worry, scientifically speaking, I'm pretty sure that T doesn't actually think he's a dog named Wuffie. Make believe is just fun for little kids, and they really really like it when you play along with them. It sincerely amazes me that this is controversial.
You may think differently when he ends up barking and living in a man- sized kennel.
Quote from: En_Route on July 07, 2012, 11:28:27 PM
Quote from: Ali on July 07, 2012, 11:09:51 PM
Honestly, I think you guys are taking this whole thing way too seriously and making it way more dire than it needs to be. Lying, scamming, discouraging logical thought and true imagination..... wooooo, scary stuff. *cue monster movie music*
Right now, my Husband is scratching T's back and calling him "Wuffie." Don't worry, scientifically speaking, I'm pretty sure that T doesn't actually think he's a dog named Wuffie. Make believe is just fun for little kids, and they really really like it when you play along with them. It sincerely amazes me that this is controversial.
You may think differently when he ends up barking and living in a man- sized kennel.
Haha, well, at least he'll be cheaper to feed if he's willing to live off of Alpo....
Quote from: Ali on July 07, 2012, 11:09:51 PM
Honestly, I think you guys are taking this whole thing way too seriously and making it way more dire than it needs to be. Lying, scamming, discouraging logical thought and true imagination..... wooooo, scary stuff. *cue monster movie music*
Right now, my Husband is scratching T's back and calling him "Wuffie." Don't worry, scientifically speaking, I'm pretty sure that T doesn't actually think he's a dog named Wuffie. Make believe is just fun for little kids, and they really really like it when you play along with them. It sincerely amazes me that this is controversial.
I don't get this (not what you said but mainly the reactions to your prior post). Why do people get mixed up between having fun and lying they ain't the same thing. You can have fun with anything, say whatever you like but as long as you haven't presented something that is fictitious as a truth its fine. The world would be a very boring place if we always had to stick to the factual basis of everything, but also like Asmo said the truth is pretty darn amazing as well. Its also important to provide the real truth otherwise you might unintentionally end up with you child responding to questions with a "My Mama says that alligators are angry because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush" and being very serious about it.
Quote from: Crow on July 08, 2012, 12:04:05 AM
Its also important to provide the real truth otherwise you might unintentionally end up with you child responding to questions with a "My Mama says that alligators are angry because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush" and being very serious about it.
LMAO Fair point. I probably would have answered T with a more scientific answer if I had known why you can see the moon during the day sometimes and not others. Now he's bound to go off to college and tell the whole class about Moon and his Mommy. Sorry T!
Quote from: Ali on July 07, 2012, 11:09:51 PM
Honestly, I think you guys are taking this whole thing way too seriously and making it way more dire than it needs to be. Lying, scamming, discouraging logical thought and true imagination..... wooooo, scary stuff. *cue monster movie music*
Right now, my Husband is scratching T's back and calling him "Wuffie." Don't worry, scientifically speaking, I'm pretty sure that T doesn't actually think he's a dog named Wuffie. Make believe is just fun for little kids, and they really really like it when you play along with them. It sincerely amazes me that this is controversial.
At the most, this topic is just interesting (to me at least). Nothing more.
The moon having a mother, ect, is a little different. It's not a global "lie". Your kid will not be verified in his belief that the moon has a mother everywhere he goes. It will be a relatively short-lived belief with a soft ending. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing when he's 30 he won't remember the day he finds out the moon doesn't have a mother. I think Santa has more of an impact. Like you said, though, we are probably taking this to seriously and I agree. It's just interesting to me.
Quote from: Genericguy on July 08, 2012, 12:14:56 AM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing when he's 30 he won't remember the day he finds out the moon doesn't have a mother.
Yes, as The Gray Tome says, "There is no Asmo other than Asmo and Ali is His Great Priestess"
...On the other hand, you never know, do you..?
I'm mentioned in the Tome? Squeeeeeeeee! ;D
Quote from: En_Route on July 07, 2012, 11:15:48 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 07, 2012, 10:16:32 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on July 07, 2012, 10:10:17 PM
I'm sorry, but all this "Breaking spells with facts" just sounds like a pathetic excuse for the lack of own imagination to me.
There is so much "wonder" and "magic" out there, even without going to the fringes of science. And if you do go there... Ooh, the possibilities are near-limitless. Imagining past or future, or even an alternative present, other worlds or artificial intelligence, or anything we can not see, explain and/or be sure of, is far better quality fun than santas and planets having parents, if you ask me.
If you don't know, find out. If you can not, use your imagination, but be prepared to be wrong. Constructive imagination fuels invention, art and discovery. The other kind comes easier, but fuels religions and other superstitions and in my experience, kills off what a person may have had of the first.
It also seems like a weird stance to take as an atheist. I didn't believe in Santa was I was a kid, but I was taught to believe in God. I'm sure my father thought it was a beautiful thing - his little girl praying, showing unquestioning love towards a figure she believed watched over her, protected her. A child's image of God is probably more beautiful than anything that actually exists in reality. It is very pure.
I wouldn't call that an argument for fostering the belief, though. And I really don't see much difference in actively fostering a belief in God and Santa, to be honest (omniscient supernatural father-figure - rewards good behaviour, punishes bad behaviour, works in "mysterious ways", etc). I certainly don't know how it would be "misguided" to spare my son the experience of believing in either.
I don't think being an atheist carries with it any corollary beliefs. Being an atheist doesn't prevent me from believing anything else I believe to be the case. I wouldn't say that telling your child there is no such thing as Santa is misguided. I would say that to argue that telling your child that Santa exists is somehow damaging to him/ her is misguided.
Like every other parent, I don't have a crystal ball and I don't ultimately know what will or won't be damaging to my kid -- and I don't pretend to know. I can only do my best and I suspect most other reasonable parents do the same. Despite my opinions here, I really don't go out of my way to tell other people what they should or shouldn't do for their kid. I've never brought up or even talked about any kind of belief issues with other parents in real life. Even when my co-worker was going nuts over her 10 year old son, I bit my tongue because, while her particular way of going about things made me uncomfortable, I respected the boundaries of the situation.
You guys are just lucky because this is a public forum that brought up the subject, so you get to hear all of my unfiltered opinions. :P And that's what I'd view them as -- my opinions on my personal parenting philosophy/situation, rather than an actual argument for what everyone should be doing.
Quote from: Asmodean on July 07, 2012, 10:10:17 PM
I'm sorry, but all this "Breaking spells with facts" just sounds like a pathetic excuse for the lack of own imagination to me.
There is so much "wonder" and "magic" out there, even without going to the fringes of science. And if you do go there... Ooh, the possibilities are near-limitless. Imagining past or future, or even an alternative present, other worlds or artificial intelligence, or anything we can not see, explain and/or be sure of, is far better quality fun than santas and planets having parents, if you ask me.
If you don't know, find out. If you can not, use your imagination, but be prepared to be wrong. Constructive imagination fuels invention, art and discovery. The other kind comes easier, but fuels religions and other superstitions and in my experience, kills off what a person may have had of the first.
A child's mind is incapable of accessing the wonder of the factual universe in all its complexity and scale. This only comes with a practical knowledge of many subjects. I am desperate for my children to share my awe at all our surrounding beauty and complexity. So I will stretch them with facts and concepts and science as and when it is so prudent. And in the meantime we shall play with imaginative ideas and simple outlandish concepts - both as an explorative tool and for fun.
Fantasy play is crucial to the developing mind in honing reasoning, evaluation and social skills. That is as close to fact as you'll get in psychology, like it or not - I can quote you several good texts if you want to understand this.
You appear to differentiate between constructive imagination and ...er... some other kind. It is not the imagination that is different, it is the way we choose to use it; just like any other tool. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
What is your middle paragraph all about if not fantastic imagination?
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 08, 2012, 01:47:09 AM
You appear to differentiate between constructive imagination and ...er... some other kind. It is not the imagination that is different, it is the way we choose to use it; just like any other tool. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
It's the same imagination, but different use thereof. Pretty much as you have pointed out. To use an out-there parallel, you can use a hammer to help you build a house or to bash your neighbour's head in - it's still the same hammer.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on July 07, 2012, 06:16:26 PMI'd rather he feel like I'm one of the few people that he can trust entirely, rather than trying to impart some kind of lesson about not being gullible, when I'm sure there'll be enough real-world experiences to talk about with him regarding that.
I suppose it's nice to trust your mother means what she says but what she says won't necessarily be correct, mothers can be rather biased or ignorant. I think it's desirable to have a reflex, unexpected answer evokes doubt not acceptance. The reflex needs to be taught through repetition, maybe.
Hippo means horse so that should be an indication as to what they eat. In ancient times they had hippodromes where hippopotamuses would race and the sun and moon smiled down. It's true trust me, I'm a pudden.
You could probably do a demo of the sun/earth/moon with a torch, torches are fun.
Quote from: Asmodean on July 08, 2012, 01:51:24 AM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on July 08, 2012, 01:47:09 AM
You appear to differentiate between constructive imagination and ...er... some other kind. It is not the imagination that is different, it is the way we choose to use it; just like any other tool. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
It's the same imagination, but different use thereof. Pretty much as you have pointed out. To use an out-there parallel, you can use a hammer to help you build a house or to bash your neighbour's head in - it's still the same hammer.
I love the way you word things, Asmo. :)
I think there's one major problem with comparing a child believing in Santa and an adult believing in Noah's Arc.
It's like comparing apples and oranges, at the most generalised level you can say that they're both fruit, but they taste very different, you know?
Children's existential needs are fulfilled by their parents. An adult's is not. What do fairy tales have to do with existential comfort and feelings of purpose? You can't really use them to explain gaps in knowledge either, for people who believe more for convenience and easy answers rather than to say they have an objective purpose in life and a surrogate parent.
I don't feel like my parents betrayed my trust when they played along with the whole Santa charade until I called them out on their bullsh*t.