Lying to Children

[DeterminedJuliet]

I'm sorry, but all this "Breaking spells with facts" just sounds like a pathetic excuse for the lack of own imagination to me.

There is so much "wonder" and "magic" out there, even without going to the fringes of science. And if you do go there... Ooh, the possibilities are near-limitless. Imagining past or future, or even an alternative present, other worlds or artificial intelligence, or anything we can not see, explain and/or be sure of, is far better quality fun than santas and planets having parents, if you ask me.

If you don't know, find out. If you can not, use your imagination, but be prepared to be wrong. Constructive imagination fuels invention, art and discovery. The other kind comes easier, but fuels religions and other superstitions and in my experience, kills off what a person may have had of the first.

It also seems like a weird stance to take as an atheist. I didn't believe in Santa was I was a kid, but I was taught to believe in God. I'm sure my father thought it was a beautiful thing - his little girl praying, showing unquestioning love towards a figure she believed watched over her, protected her. A child's image of God is probably more beautiful than anything that actually exists in reality. It is very pure.

I wouldn't call that an argument for fostering the belief, though. And I really don't see much difference in actively fostering a belief in God and Santa, to be honest (omniscient supernatural father-figure - rewards good behaviour, punishes bad behaviour, works in "mysterious ways", etc). I certainly don't know how it would be "misguided" to spare my son the experience of believing in either.   

[Asmodean]

It's not just religion and santa - it's all fairy tales. I see not regarding and enjoying them as fiction as harmful because, among other things, in their simplicity, they take the focus away from the far more intricate (and to me, far more interesting) natural world.

[Ali]

Honestly, I think you guys are taking this whole thing way too seriously and making it way more dire than it needs to be.  Lying, scamming, discouraging logical thought and true imagination..... wooooo, scary stuff.  *cue monster movie music*

Right now, my Husband is scratching T's back and calling him "Wuffie."  Don't worry, scientifically speaking, I'm pretty sure that T doesn't actually think he's a dog named Wuffie.  Make believe is just fun for little kids, and they really really like it when you play along with them.  It sincerely amazes me that this is controversial.

[En_Route]

I'm sorry, but all this "Breaking spells with facts" just sounds like a pathetic excuse for the lack of own imagination to me.

There is so much "wonder" and "magic" out there, even without going to the fringes of science. And if you do go there... Ooh, the possibilities are near-limitless. Imagining past or future, or even an alternative present, other worlds or artificial intelligence, or anything we can not see, explain and/or be sure of, is far better quality fun than santas and planets having parents, if you ask me.

If you don't know, find out. If you can not, use your imagination, but be prepared to be wrong. Constructive imagination fuels invention, art and discovery. The other kind comes easier, but fuels religions and other superstitions and in my experience, kills off what a person may have had of the first.

It also seems like a weird stance to take as an atheist. I didn't believe in Santa was I was a kid, but I was taught to believe in God. I'm sure my father thought it was a beautiful thing - his little girl praying, showing unquestioning love towards a figure she believed watched over her, protected her. A child's image of God is probably more beautiful than anything that actually exists in reality. It is very pure.

I wouldn't call that an argument for fostering the belief, though. And I really don't see much difference in actively fostering a belief in God and Santa, to be honest (omniscient supernatural father-figure - rewards good behaviour, punishes bad behaviour, works in "mysterious ways", etc). I certainly don't know how it would be "misguided" to spare my son the experience of believing in either.   

I don't think being an atheist carries with it any corollary beliefs. Being an atheist doesn't prevent me from believing anything else I believe to be the case. I wouldn't say that telling your child there is no such thing as Santa is misguided. I would say that to argue that telling your child that Danta exists is somehow damaging to him/ her is misguided.

[En_Route]

Honestly, I think you guys are taking this whole thing way too seriously and making it way more dire than it needs to be.  Lying, scamming, discouraging logical thought and true imagination..... wooooo, scary stuff.  *cue monster movie music*

Right now, my Husband is scratching T's back and calling him "Wuffie."  Don't worry, scientifically speaking, I'm pretty sure that T doesn't actually think he's a dog named Wuffie.  Make believe is just fun for little kids, and they really really like it when you play along with them.  It sincerely amazes me that this is controversial.

You may think differently when he ends up barking and living in a man- sized kennel.

[Ali]

Honestly, I think you guys are taking this whole thing way too seriously and making it way more dire than it needs to be.  Lying, scamming, discouraging logical thought and true imagination..... wooooo, scary stuff.  *cue monster movie music*

Right now, my Husband is scratching T's back and calling him "Wuffie."  Don't worry, scientifically speaking, I'm pretty sure that T doesn't actually think he's a dog named Wuffie.  Make believe is just fun for little kids, and they really really like it when you play along with them.  It sincerely amazes me that this is controversial.

You may think differently when he ends up barking and living in a man- sized kennel.

Haha, well, at least he'll be cheaper to feed if he's willing to live off of Alpo....

[Crow]

Honestly, I think you guys are taking this whole thing way too seriously and making it way more dire than it needs to be.  Lying, scamming, discouraging logical thought and true imagination..... wooooo, scary stuff.  *cue monster movie music*

Right now, my Husband is scratching T's back and calling him "Wuffie."  Don't worry, scientifically speaking, I'm pretty sure that T doesn't actually think he's a dog named Wuffie.  Make believe is just fun for little kids, and they really really like it when you play along with them.  It sincerely amazes me that this is controversial.

I don't get this (not what you said but mainly the reactions to your prior post). Why do people get mixed up between having fun and lying they ain't the same thing. You can have fun with anything, say whatever you like but as long as you haven't presented something that is fictitious as a truth its fine. The world would be a very boring place if we always had to stick to the factual basis of everything, but also like Asmo said the truth is pretty darn amazing as well. Its also important to provide the real truth otherwise you might unintentionally end up with you child responding to questions with a "My Mama says that alligators are angry because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush" and being very serious about it.

[Ali]

Its also important to provide the real truth otherwise you might unintentionally end up with you child responding to questions with a "My Mama says that alligators are angry because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush" and being very serious about it.

LMAO  Fair point.  I probably would have answered T with a more scientific answer if I had known why you can see the moon during the day sometimes and not others.  Now he's bound to go off to college and tell the whole class about Moon and his Mommy.  Sorry T!

[Genericguy]

Honestly, I think you guys are taking this whole thing way too seriously and making it way more dire than it needs to be.  Lying, scamming, discouraging logical thought and true imagination..... wooooo, scary stuff.  *cue monster movie music*

Right now, my Husband is scratching T's back and calling him "Wuffie."  Don't worry, scientifically speaking, I'm pretty sure that T doesn't actually think he's a dog named Wuffie.  Make believe is just fun for little kids, and they really really like it when you play along with them.  It sincerely amazes me that this is controversial.

At the most, this topic is just interesting (to me at least). Nothing more.

The moon having a mother, ect, is a little different. It's not a global "lie". Your kid will not be verified in his belief that the moon has a mother everywhere he goes. It will be a relatively short-lived belief with a soft ending. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing when he's 30 he won't remember the day he finds out the moon doesn't have a mother. I think Santa has more of an impact. Like you said, though, we are probably taking this to seriously and I agree. It's just interesting to me.

[Asmodean]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing when he's 30 he won't remember the day he finds out the moon doesn't have a mother.

Yes, as The Gray Tome says, "There is no Asmo other than Asmo and Ali is His Great Priestess"

...On the other hand, you never know, do you..?

[Ali]

I'm mentioned in the Tome?  Squeeeeeeeee! 

[DeterminedJuliet]

I'm sorry, but all this "Breaking spells with facts" just sounds like a pathetic excuse for the lack of own imagination to me.

There is so much "wonder" and "magic" out there, even without going to the fringes of science. And if you do go there... Ooh, the possibilities are near-limitless. Imagining past or future, or even an alternative present, other worlds or artificial intelligence, or anything we can not see, explain and/or be sure of, is far better quality fun than santas and planets having parents, if you ask me.

If you don't know, find out. If you can not, use your imagination, but be prepared to be wrong. Constructive imagination fuels invention, art and discovery. The other kind comes easier, but fuels religions and other superstitions and in my experience, kills off what a person may have had of the first.

It also seems like a weird stance to take as an atheist. I didn't believe in Santa was I was a kid, but I was taught to believe in God. I'm sure my father thought it was a beautiful thing - his little girl praying, showing unquestioning love towards a figure she believed watched over her, protected her. A child's image of God is probably more beautiful than anything that actually exists in reality. It is very pure.

I wouldn't call that an argument for fostering the belief, though. And I really don't see much difference in actively fostering a belief in God and Santa, to be honest (omniscient supernatural father-figure - rewards good behaviour, punishes bad behaviour, works in "mysterious ways", etc). I certainly don't know how it would be "misguided" to spare my son the experience of believing in either.   

I don't think being an atheist carries with it any corollary beliefs. Being an atheist doesn't prevent me from believing anything else I believe to be the case. I wouldn't say that telling your child there is no such thing as Santa is misguided. I would say that to argue that telling your child that Santa exists is somehow damaging to him/ her is misguided.

Like every other parent, I don't have a crystal ball and I don't ultimately know what will or won't be damaging to my kid -- and I don't pretend to know. I can only do my best and I suspect most other reasonable parents do the same. Despite my opinions here, I really don't go out of my way to tell other people what they should or shouldn't do for their kid. I've never brought up or even talked about any kind of belief issues with other parents in real life. Even when my co-worker was going nuts over her 10 year old son, I bit my tongue because, while her particular way of going about things made me uncomfortable, I respected the boundaries of the situation.

You guys are just lucky because this is a public forum that brought up the subject, so you get to hear all of my unfiltered opinions.  And that's what I'd view them as -- my opinions on my personal parenting philosophy/situation, rather than an actual argument for what everyone should be doing.

[Siz]

I'm sorry, but all this "Breaking spells with facts" just sounds like a pathetic excuse for the lack of own imagination to me.

There is so much "wonder" and "magic" out there, even without going to the fringes of science. And if you do go there... Ooh, the possibilities are near-limitless. Imagining past or future, or even an alternative present, other worlds or artificial intelligence, or anything we can not see, explain and/or be sure of, is far better quality fun than santas and planets having parents, if you ask me.

If you don't know, find out. If you can not, use your imagination, but be prepared to be wrong. Constructive imagination fuels invention, art and discovery. The other kind comes easier, but fuels religions and other superstitions and in my experience, kills off what a person may have had of the first.

A child's mind is incapable of accessing the wonder of the factual universe in all its complexity and scale. This only comes with a practical knowledge of many subjects. I am desperate for my children to share my awe at all our surrounding beauty and complexity. So I will stretch them with facts and concepts and science as and when it is so prudent. And in the meantime we shall play with imaginative ideas and simple outlandish concepts - both as an explorative tool and for fun.

Fantasy play is crucial to the developing mind in honing reasoning, evaluation and social skills. That is as close to fact as you'll get in psychology, like it or not - I can quote you several good texts if you want to understand this.

You appear to differentiate between constructive imagination and ...er... some other kind. It is not the imagination that is different, it is the way we choose to use it; just like any other tool. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

What is your middle paragraph all about if not fantastic imagination?

[Asmodean]

You appear to differentiate between constructive imagination and ...er... some other kind. It is not the imagination that is different, it is the way we choose to use it; just like any other tool. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

It's the same imagination, but different use thereof. Pretty much as you have pointed out. To use an out-there parallel, you can use a hammer to help you build a house or to bash your neighbour's head in - it's still the same hammer.

[The Magic Pudding]

I'd rather he feel like I'm one of the few people that he can trust entirely, rather than trying to impart some kind of lesson about not being gullible, when I'm sure there'll be enough real-world experiences to talk about with him regarding that.

I suppose it's nice to trust your mother means what she says but what she says won't necessarily be correct, mothers can be rather biased or ignorant.  I think it's desirable to have a reflex, unexpected answer evokes doubt not acceptance.  The reflex needs to be taught through repetition, maybe. 


Hippo means horse so that should be an indication as to what they eat.  In ancient times they had hippodromes where hippopotamuses would race and the sun and moon smiled down.  It's true trust me, I'm a pudden.

You could probably do a demo of the sun/earth/moon with a torch, torches are fun.