A question about prayer

[Sandra Craft]

I was reading Mary Oliver's Long Life, and came across this in the essay Habits, Differences and the Light that Abides:

Men and women of faith who pray -- that is, who come to a certain assigned place, at definite times, and are not abashed to go down on their knees -- will not tarry for the cup of coffee or the newsbreak or the end of the movie when the moment arrives.  The habit, then, has become their life.  What some might call the restrictions of the daily office they find to be an opportunity to foster the inner life.  The hours are appointed and named; they are the Lord's.  Life's fretfulness is transcended.  The different and the novel are sweet, but regularity and repetition are also teachers.  Divine attentiveness cannot be kept casually, or visited only in season, like Venice or Switzerland.  Or, perhaps it can, but then how attentive is it?  And if you have no ceremony, no habits, which may be opulent or may be simple but are exact and rigorous and familiar, how can you reach toward the actuality of faith, or even a moral life, except vaguely? 

I was wondering what the religious might make of this.  It raises a number of questions for me, but the main one is the idea that ceremony and such are required for a moral life, which strikes me very odd. 

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I'm certainly not as disciplined about prayer as the author apparently was. For me it's more a matter of when it happens, it happens.  I don't really see the connection between ceremony and morality, but that was an insight that perhaps she had about herself, and then projected it onto others. Perhaps "ceremony" for her is simply an elevation of particular habits, and she feels that her time of communion with God in prayer is an integral part of her life that gives her the strength to live morally.  I suppose that habits and morality can be connected at some level.   

[Sandra Craft]

Well, she is a poet and given to poetic turns of speech.  I'm thinking I may simply be missing the point because I've always found poetry hard to understand.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I think it's more about the "connectedness" and comforting sense that those sorts of habits evoke. When I used to pray daily (once upon a time) there was something a bit therapeutic about quiet, repetitious thinking/talking time.

Now I just say goodnight to my cats every evening and it achieves pretty much the same result. 

[Sandra Craft]

About a year ago my brother started meditating twice a day, for 20 minutes each time, and he absolutely swears by it.  It seems to me that this is at least similar to what Oliver was writing about with the regularly set times for prayer, perhaps the discipline of it predisposing the mind to do whatever it does during prayer or meditation.  Like Pavlov's dogs salivating for a bell.  I don't mean that dismissively, I just couldn't think of a better example.  On the other hand, leaving room for some spontaneity would keep ritual from turning rote and being something you just mumbled your way thru mindlessly, the way I used to repeat the pledge of allegiance every morning as a kid.

Still puzzled about the ceremony/morals connection.

Now I just say goodnight to my cats every evening and it achieves pretty much the same result. 

"Good night, DeeDee, see you in the morning."  I wonder if there's any sort of morality being engendered in saying that every night?

[En_Route]

About a year ago my brother started meditating twice a day, for 20 minutes each time, and he absolutely swears by it.  It seems to me that this is at least similar to what Oliver was writing about with the regularly set times for prayer, perhaps the discipline of it predisposing the mind to do whatever it does during prayer or meditation.  Like Pavlov's dogs salivating for a bell.  I don't mean that dismissively, I just couldn't think of a better example.  On the other hand, leaving room for some spontaneity would keep ritual from turning rote and being something you just mumbled your way thru mindlessly, the way I used to repeat the pledge of allegiance every morning as a kid.

Still puzzled about the ceremony/morals connection.

Now I just say goodnight to my cats every evening and it achieves pretty much the same result. 

"Good night, DeeDee, see you in the morning."  I wonder if there's any sort of morality being engendered in saying that every night?

I practise  mindful meditation myself purely for the  psychological benefits, which are well documented. I have been an unreconstructed atheist since age 14 and I can assure you that its benefits are in no way dependent on
Abandoning rational beliefs.

[Sandra Craft]

I practise  mindful meditation myself purely for the  psychological benefits, which are well documented. I have been an unreconstructed atheist since age 14 and I can assure you that its benefits are in no way dependent on
Abandoning rational beliefs.

I didn't imagine it did altho there do seem to me to be other similiarities between meditation and prayer.

[xSilverPhinx]

I think that it's more likely that there's a correlation between rituals/ceremony being intrinsically good for people and meditation/prayer also being good in its own right. I also don't see how they connect though. ???

Muslims do this more than Christians, pity there are no frequent posters.

[Amicale]

BCE, to answer the question about the ceremony and the specific hours she mentions, she's maybe referring to the Liturgy of the Hours, aka the Divine Office. Especially morning prayer (Lauds) or evening prayer (Vespers). It's basically setting those hours apart during each day to focus, meditate, maybe sing hymns, pray, praise, etc. Most people I know who pray like this say that if they don't stay in the habit of doing it each day, they automatically feel 'further away' from God, and automatically lose the willpower to pray.

Interesting to me, that it requires specific set-aside devotional times to actually keep one connected to God. It seems like they have to make an extra effort to stay faithful, otherwise they start to naturally doubt. I sometimes wonder if any of them put two and two together, and realize that they're making themselves do something very un-natural, which is why it's so difficult to maintain and keep in the habit of.

[xSilverPhinx]

^Interesting.

Reminds me of Pascal and his wager. After concluding that it's best to play it safe and believe, his advice to unbelievers was to make it a habit. Sort of ridiculous, really, but still an insight. 

[Amicale]

^Interesting.

Reminds me of Pascal and his wager. After concluding that it's best to play it safe and believe, his advice to unbelievers was to make it a habit. Sort of ridiculous, really, but still an insight. 

Well really, it seems to be one more thing where people have to train themselves to get into the mind-set of doing each day, even if that thing doesn't come naturally to them. We do this with lots of necessary things we might not want to do - take pills at certain hours, exercise every morning, eat at a certain time, practice a musical instrument or language so you don't lose the skills, etc. Forcing yourself into a habit is just about the only way a lot of people can ensure they'll do something often enough to make it "stick". I assume the same goes for prayer, eh? Make it a habit so that you'll do it, otherwise you'll get rusty at it.

As for the religious explanation on why people pray at those specific hours, there's an old, old poem that I've always liked the sound of. It just sounds pretty, in its own way... but basically it's a mandate from 'God' to pray in remembrance of him.

At Matins bound, at Prime reviled
Condemned to death at Terce,
Nailed to the Cross at Sext;
At None, His blessed Side they pierced,
They take Him down at Vesper-Tide,
In the grave at Compline lay,
Who henceforth bids His Church observe
These sevenfold hours always

[Gawen]

And if you have no ceremony, no habits, which may be opulent or may be simple but are exact and rigorous and familiar, how can you reach toward the actuality of faith, or even a moral life, except vaguely? 

Conditioning and tradition...*shrugs with a grin*. Mary Oliver thinks that a simple prayer recited every day is not the way to a moral life or faith or at the least is morally and faithfully vague. However, the more animated one is, the more they slobber for their faith, the bigger the ceremony at any time of the day is the way to a moral and faith filled life.

I never read Mary Oliver. Don't reckon I ever will...now.

[Sandra Craft]

I never read Mary Oliver. Don't reckon I ever will...now.

You probably wouldn't like her poetry anyway, more than a little on the dreamy, gauzy side. 

[Gawen]

Amicale, it's not so much a habit but that God commands prayer. Jesus didn't stand on ceremony, he also commanded a simple prayer to be said in private. Mary Oliver, it seems, would have had it that 76 trombones and 110 coronets roll by every time someone said a prayer. And she would be one of the bassoon's having it's big, fat say! In her mind, that was moral living and great faith.

Reference: Music Man - Seventy six trombones

[Amicale]

Amicale, it's not so much a habit but that God commands prayer. Jesus didn't stand on ceremony, he also commanded a simple prayer to be said in private. Mary Oliver, it seems, would have had it that 76 trombones and 110 coronets roll by every time someone said a prayer. And she would be one of the bassoon's having it's big, fat say! In her mind, that was moral living and great faith.

Reference: Music Man - Seventy six trombones

Yes. Just so happens that I love The Music Man.

And I think in my one post, I alluded to it being mandated by God - ie, he tells his people to pray. And some keep on doing it, with or without visible immediate results, simply because they believe that he told them to pray so that's what they believe they're to do.

*walks off singing 'Marian.... Madam Librarrrrrr....ian.' *