The Pledge of Allegiance and Moments for Silent Reflection

[Tricky_Niki]

It has come to my attention that my 8yr old sons school still recites the Pledge every morning and has several days during the year where they pause for Silent Reflection.
        We can have Marty excused from both activities with a letter to the school board. I have no problem with the Pledge as it was originally written, however they use the more common rewrite from the 50's. I also have trouble finding anything that 8 and 9 year olds would need time to silently reflect upon.
        I had planned to write the school board and call the principal as soon as they are back in the office after the winter break. Then I woke up this morning and read about what Kylyssa suffered. We live in a community with 205 churches and 53000 people.
        So now I am stuck do we as parents stand up for what we believe in or do we sit back and let the school that we pay for do things that are clearly wrong?

[Will]

I suppose he could silently reflect that he has better parents than his peers who are able to teach critical thinking and reason. Hehe.

Most idiots are blissfully unaware that they are using a modified version of the pledge, so I would start by educating them on the source of "under God", which was actually that a private religious fraternity (Knights of Columbus) concocted a plan to have the idea planted in a sermon given to Eisenhower, who made the horrible mistake of listening to a preacher. It was the founding fathers who clearly were more interested in a separation between religion and the state. Jefferson once wrote:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

The original pledge: “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.”

Frankly, I don't pledge my allegiance to a piece of cloth, but rather to serve the interests of equality and justice as a representative of my species instead of my country. Patriotism is basically the sentiment that my country is better because I was born here, and it has no rooting in honor or any other favorable sentiment.

[myleviathan]

Patriotism is basically the sentiment that my country is better because I was born here, and it has no rooting in honor or any other favorable sentiment.

Man, I usually agree with EVERYTHING you say!

However...   I'm very patriotic, I love the USA. And it's not because I was born here. It's because of my respect for the founding fathers like Thomas Jefferson (and others) who helped establish one of the first secular governments on the planet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there weren't any other secular governments in existence at the time of the break with England. The European powers were mostly under the power of the Catholic church except England (because of the switch to the Anglican church), and maybe Germany which was more Lutheran/Protistant. Russia was under the political influence of the Greek Orthodox church, which is just the Eastern version of the Roman Catholic church. I know France was experiencing a sweep of atheism at the time but it didn't result in any political change until after the US led the way. Then revolution swept through South America with Simon Bolivar and other parts of the world.

I'm really proud of the strides that we have made as a country in adding human rights to the constitution. I'm proud we have a (mostly) democratic system of government (I hate lobbyists who control politicians with money). I'm proud we have a system of revolving leadership. I wish it was less conservative at times and stressed learning and science instead, but I believe we'll get there someday if we free thinkers could become as organized as the fundies. I think we're headed, long term, in the right way. Or maybe not, maybe fundie led military action will wipe the planet out completely. Either way, we have a long way to go, but we as Americans have a lot to be proud of. It's okay to be patriotic.

I see what you're saying as far as being patriotic for the right reason. But the general idea that patriotism is nothing but being proud to be born somewhere is debatable.

And I say this with all due respect. I really dig your posts.

[Tricky_Niki]

I love my country but very much dislike its current leaders.
Jess and I are trying very hard to raise our children to be good upstanding citizens. Part of that means asking questions and not being spoon fed by whoever is currently in control. I believe this country was founded for people like us even if they didn't know it when they did it.

Sometimes I think about how much easier it would be if we gave up and followed the norm, but then I think of how boring it would be.

[Will]

Don't get me wrong, I think the US Constitution is one of the best authored writings of all time, and I do agree that the US was one of the first secular governments. Patriotism is about allegiance more than appreciation, though. I appreciate the US and our history, but I do not consider myself to be loyally dedicated to my country or government (which is how I interpret "allegiance"). I believe that loyalty is something that people earn, not institutions or organizations. I hope this clarifies my point.

[myleviathan]

Patriotism is about allegiance more than appreciation, though

Not necessarily. Patriotism in my opinion is more about being involved and standing up for what's right in a political setting. Jefferson himself (the primary author of the constitution) apparently said 'Dissention is the highest form of patriotism.' I also see it on bumper stickers, so that's why I add the 'apparently' clause.

[McQ]

I'm not envious of your situation, Niki. It's a tough one. You can just make sure your kids know they have choices, and that they can pledge without including a god, but it's a difficult thing to do without creating havoc.

I wish I had some good advice for you, but I just don't right now.

[highlight=red]Warning!!! Soapbox moment ahead!!![/highlight]


Will, I'm afraid I have to disagree with your sentiments, along with myleviathan. There's more to it than just pledging to a piece of cloth, or mindlessly (not your word, but seemingly your implication) becoming an "America, love it or leave it" drone.

The flag represents the nation, its ideals and liberties. Everything that makes up the best in the founding of our country is symbolized in that flag. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we can't disagree, but it seems that you are thinking of this on a much more surface level. There are those here who took oaths (yes, my word, or oath is important to me) to protect and defend the constitution. To me, the flag, again, is the symbol of that written document.

I stand and honor it when it passes by me, I remove my hat and face it while the national anthem is played, and I make it a point that my kids understand just what it means to do the same.

And as far as our country's allegiance or loyalty being something that needs to be earned by you personally, I will stridently disagree with you there. In fact, I have to ask just what needs to happen for our nation to earn your loyalty?

Perhaps you forget or do not respect that over the past 230+ years, people have been earning that loyalty every single day. I'm not sure you meant it this way, but I find it a major insult to me personally, and to every person who, in any way, worked, fought, died, toiled, or labored to keep our nation whole and free. President Kennedy was trying to get people to think about this as well during his 1961 inaugural address:

In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shank from this responsibility - I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavour will light our country and all who serve it -- and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.

Another way to look at this is the nation does not "owe" you anything, but you owe it to the nation to work to make it a place worth living in and being loyal to.

Do I disagree with individuals in our government? Hell yes, particularly now. But the pledge is NOT to them, it is to the ideals of our nation, via its symbol, the flag. I sincerely hope you give that some thought, Will

The soap box is now free for you and others to fire back.  

[Will]

The flag represents the nation, its ideals and liberties. Everything that makes up the best in the founding of our country is symbolized in that flag. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we can't disagree, but it seems that you are thinking of this on a much more surface level. There are those here who took oaths (yes, my word, or oath is important to me) to protect and defend the constitution. To me, the flag, again, is the symbol of that written document.

I'd take an oath to defend most of the ideals in the Constitution, but not the document itself. The Constitution still has parts missing and a few parts that are questionable, so completely accepting it doesn't make sense in my case. I like freedom and equality, fairness and justice. All that jazz. I also abide by the laws of the land. Oaths? Meh.

I stand and honor it when it passes by me, I remove my hat and face it while the national anthem is played, and I make it a point that my kids understand just what it means to do the same.

And as far as our country's allegiance or loyalty being something that needs to be earned by you personally, I will stridently disagree with you there. In fact, I have to ask just what needs to happen for our nation to earn your loyalty? [/quote]
I suppose, and I say this with all respect due, that I don't just take the good when I look at the flag. I also see the genocide of the Native Americans all the way through to the genocide in Iraq. It's hardly fair to only see the good when one looks at the stars and stripes. The nation itself cannot earn my trust because it's not one person or one continuous entity. The nation under the Clinton Administration, for example, was different than the nation in 2002. I'm speaking of both government and people, laws and politics. Some individuals have absolutely earned my trust, admiration, and even loyalty. Everyone from Jefferson to Kucinich has that. The country as a whole? Not really.

Perhaps you forget or do not respect that over the past 230+ years, people have been earning that loyalty every single day. I'm not sure you meant it this way, but I find it a major insult to me personally, and to every person who, in any way, worked, fought, died, toiled, or labored to keep our nation whole and free. President Kennedy was trying to get people to think about this as well during his 1961 inaugural address:

In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shank from this responsibility - I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavour will light our country and all who serve it -- and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.

I respect Kennedy (both JKF and RFK). As individuals.

Another way to look at this is the nation does not "owe" you anything, but you owe it to the nation to work to make it a place worth living in and being loyal to.

Do I disagree with individuals in our government? Hell yes, particularly now. But the pledge is NOT to them, it is to the ideals of our nation, via its symbol, the flag. I sincerely hope you give that some thought, Will

I work really really damn hard to make this country better because of my contributions. For example, I'm helping with counter recruitment on high school campuses here because the recruiters are outright lying about service and kids are being tricked. Because my lobby of my representatives didn't work, I took it upon myself to do something. Know what? I've helped a lot of people. Back in 1999 I was in Seattle to protest the WTO. I try to fix the country all the time. It's not about loyalty to the whole, though, but loyalty to the individuals. In the case of counter recruitment it's about helping the helpless.