I think I have scrupulosity OCD... can someone please disprove Hell for me?

[jimmorrisonbabe]

I know I'm not on the right type of forum, and technically in OCD terms this is seeking reassurance... but I'm really scared right now that I'm going to go to hell after I die. The worst thing about it all is that I'm not even religious.

I read that topic 'It's like cancer', and I can totally relate to that right now. Why do christianity and various other religions promote the idea of a place of eternal torture? It's an awful thing to do to a human.

I go out, drink, socialise and flirt with guys a lot, and I want to enjoy it but my OCD/a voice in my head is always telling me "you're going to go to hell if you drink and do that with the opposite sex". How can I stop this? I want to see how you guys deal with the idea of hell, even though I should be tackling it CBT-wise. But I feel like I can't tackle it through therapy tactics right now, because the WHAT IF THERE IS A HELL? thoughts are so strong.

Thanks for any advice.

[Crow]

Which concept of hell are you afraid of going to?

[Gawen]

But I feel like I can't tackle it through therapy tactics right now, because the WHAT IF THERE IS A HELL? thoughts are so strong.

Thanks for any advice.

That would be the problem right there and it's all negative. People without OCD have the same thoughts and many finally work out the sham/con job for what it really is. Your problem is exacerbated with the OCD and would, I wager, require therapy. So go to therapy with as positive and open mind you can muster, give a try.

[Guardian85]

If you are worried about hell, ask yourself if you think your conciousness can survive the death of your brain.
According to everything we know your concious self is intimately tied to the wetware of the brain. This we have seen countless demonstrations of when someone was treated with electroshock therapy or suffered brain damage. The personality and conciousness of the person changed as the structure of their brains did.
So, how could your concious self survive your death,to go to heaven or hell, when the vessel of your conciousness is destroyed?

Asking where your counciousness goes after your death is like asking where your operating system goes after you blow up your computer.   

[history_geek]

Personally I might consider your current situation as "hell", as I use the word to describe a state where a person is under huge physical, mental and/or emotional distress, but I also use it refer to places such as a battlefield where people can truly exhibit the worst our nature has to offer, and where the whole situation is horrific.

That being said, the version "hell" that certain religious authorities, I'm sorry, pretentious assholes, try to force feed us is no more real then any other object or place of belief in any mythology.

The Christian version of "hell", with its vivid images of demons and devils jumping around with their pitchforks going about their god given task (*cough*) is largely placed on, not the bible, but the "Divine Comedy" by Dante, as well as the Greek underworld of Hades. Especially Catholicism adopted many of the details from it, such as the level and defined places for each sin (the seven deadly sins also have a less divine origin, an interesting article about it HERE), etc. The New Testament only describes it as a lake of fire and a place of "gnashing of teeth" as I remmeber. However, in the Old Testament, you won't find a mention of the place, as the Jews never believed in such a place. but a place called "Sheol":

translated as "grave", "pit", or "abode of the dead", is the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible's underworld, a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from God

-Wiki

I think one way to figuring this stuff out is read up on the other after"lifes" and underworlds that other religions, both past and present, have sold as part of their invisible product. There is plenty of material online, and perhaps the easiest way is to start with a google search on Middle Eastern religions in general.

Other then that, I agree with Gawen about therapy, and having a positive attitude, but i also think you should do thing s at your own pace.

[Ali]

(((Hugs)))  For those of us brought up with the idea of hell as a real place that you are in imminent danger of visiting, the thought of going there (for all eternity no less!) really is scary.  I was really terrified of hell as a child, and I think that latent "what if...?" thoughts are what kept me from fully embracing my atheism in my late teens and early twenties.  I agree with everything everyone has said.  First of all, therapy/medication may help give you some relief from your OCD.  Also, reading about other culture's versions of what happens after you die is a good innoculation as I'm sure you won't be afraid of them.  Ask yourself why, and why one set of humans would have more knowledge about god and the afterlife than any other.  I also like Guardian's explanation - how can you have a consciousness with no brain to run it?  We know enough about how the brain functions to know that if the brain is damaged enough, consciousness goes away. Why would it be different when you're dead and the brain is not just damaged but completely gone?

Anyway, I hope some of this has been a comfort to you.  Stick around if you're inclined.  The people on this site are very supportive and wonderful (except me, I'm a beast  )

[The Magic Pudding]

I don't think there is a hell but even if there were how would you know who gets to go there?
The people that run religions can't be trusted, they want to manipulate people, they want power.
I think if there is evil being done it is done by those who taint natural healthy human relationships with their perverted concept of sin.  This theft from others, the attempted theft from me of part of my humanity, it makes me angry.  I don't know if a moderate amount of anger at the attempted abuse is a healthy thing or a useful buffer.  Anyway for those who suffer a fear of hell, discomfort with their sexuality, an addiction to gambling or who starve themselves to fit a crazy body image, I'll be angry at those who sow the seeds of their desperation on their behalf.

[AnimatedDirt]

Hell is not a place of torture, it is a place of complete separation from that which sustains life.  In other words, hell is simply death.  A person shouldn't be any more scared of hell as one is of his/her own death which I assume does not keep *you up at night pondering in fear all the ways one can die in this world.

[Invictus]

Hello JMB,

Forgive me, I have no training that would equip me to advise you regarding the OCD aspect of your questions.  I do know one person who struggles to cope with this condition and, like you, is reluctant to seek skilled assistance with it.  There is so much written about the subject, including self-help information, which I'm sure you must have sought out.  But the nature of OCD is that it can overwhelm our rational intentions.  I hope you will choose at some point to seek some assistance, if only to spend some time with someone who gives you an opportunity to just talk about it.  That alone can help relieve some of the pressure you feel, though a brief encounter is unlikely to remove the thoughts in any permanent way.

As far as the fear itself, you say you aren't religious.  But that may not be necessary to having this fear.  I don't know how religion factored into your early background; that is, whether you were raised in a Christian environment that believed that Heaven and Hell were realities.  Even if this isn't in your background, these concepts are strong in our Western heritage and take root in us without our knowing it.  In a world where absolutes for or against the teachings of Christianity may be difficult to obtain, the "what if . . . " is often not easily dispelled, even without the complications of OCD.

So do you believe in God?  It starts there.  If you do, then, as many Christians claim (though with a different intent), all things are possible, including that Hell exists.  In that case, you have to acknowledge your belief and evaluate your behavior and how you should live your life to be consistent with that belief.  This isn't necessarily easy.  As Saint Augustine, who battled with his lifestyle and faith, is reported to have said, "Give me the strength to put aside the ways of the world – but not just yet!"  But consider also that the Christianity also teaches that all are sinners.  And, that being the case, perfection is not necessary to become worthy of the eternal life.  So this path leads to exploration of one's belief and how to maximize consistent behavior, and the rest takes care of itself.

However, if you have a firm conclusion – meaning not absolute evidence, but an inescapable view from what you do know – that God does not exist, then it's the OCD itself.  Without God, Hell has no meaning or power over us; it's just a vestige (though a powerful one) of our cultural infancy.  In this case you should deal with the OCD as medical/psychological condition.  There is help available.

Personally, I am an atheist.  But I remain a seeker of self-knowledge and the bases for my view.  I came from a Christian background, but many years ago concluded from the evidence that God did not exist.  Yet that Christian background is in me, having taken root during my childhood, when the ability to assess and accept or reject such powerful notions was undeveloped.  My continued self-examination points some vestige of a need for certainty.  But, for me, the sum of my life experiences and development as a human being dictate a conclusion that God does not exist.  I don't have any choice in the matter.  It's that strong of a conclusion.  As such, Hell, eternity and all such concepts have faded to fable.

I wish you the best.

Invictus

[Guardian85]

Fun fact: "Hell" isn't even a christian word.

"Hell" comes from the norse "Hel" which described both the place and goddess who cared for those who didn't die in combat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(being)

In the Poetic Edda, Prose Edda, and Heimskringla, Hel is referred to as a daughter of Loki, and to "go to Hel" is to die. In the Prose Edda book Gylfaginning, Hel is described as having been appointed by the god Odin as ruler of a realm of the same name, located in Niflheim.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Even if you don't believe in God, you can contemplate the Christian model of a loving God.  The concept of an eternal place of torment is contrary to the concept of a loving, forgiving God.  The "lake of fire" in Revelation is a metaphor, just like everything else in that book. It is not literal. The "gnashing of teeth" simply refers to the being excluded from the presence of God (death), not a place of eternal torment. I'm a Christian and do not believe in a eternal torment, and you shouldn't, either.

[Gawen]

If you are worried about hell, ...

You see, OCD is different. Most people have critical thinking skills. Some people use them...others willingly do not. OCD is a type of anxiety disorder where people are stuck in endless cycles of repetitive thoughts and behavior. OCDers can't control this. And it just doesn't go away. Those afflicted simply must seek treatment through therapy and medications.

I really feel for JMBabe, but only she can want to end this and the only way to do that is get help. Babe said:

But I feel like I can't tackle it through therapy tactics right now, because the WHAT IF THERE IS A HELL? thoughts are so strong.

That is the OCD talking, not her. Her very next sentence is:

Thanks for any advice.

And that's Babe talking. I would wager that she is quite cognitive of the need for treatment, but the OCD stops her.
Am I right Babe?
And even if I'm not totally right about this, you must agree with me that treatment is called for and you are the only one to seek it.
Go get help and let us know what you're doing...How it's going. Keep us in the loop.

[xSilverPhinx]

I knew someone who went through the same strong and invasive thoughts that you describe who had been a true believer and was leaving his faith who also decided that he didn't want to go to therapy. The OCD eventually subsided, but it took years, and he lived in a living hell because of it. Maybe if he had gone to therapy, it would've been easier and quicker.

I'm not so sure about how effective trying to rationalise the whole hell thing is, have you tried it?

Have you tried inoculating yourself against your irrational fears by exposing yourself to other religions and their thoughts on the subject? Have you tried not letting your OCD thoughts reinforce themselves, somehow?

Medication makes some things easier, take it from me Especially when dealing with the irrational fear that causes all these invasive thoughts. You fix that, and the rest does become easier.

You could also look at how cults and groups bent on controlling people manipulate and brainwash, the idea that people get some sort of punishment they really would rather avoid for leaving a group (or particular version of a particular religion) can be very effective for the purposes of the manipulators. Keep in mind that even those who aren't manipulators by nature can simply be passing on what they've learned, and the indoctrinated "truths" that they were brought up with. Malicious intent is not necessary.

I should be tackling it CBT-wise. But I feel like I can't tackle it through therapy tactics right now, because the WHAT IF THERE IS A HELL? thoughts are so strong.

Your amplified by OCD and programmed fear in hell is over-writing the rational thing to do, which is to seek therapy, what are your religious beliefs? It's a defense mechanism that won't do you good. Do you still believe in a god who would want to send you to this supposed place?

[Whitney]

I agree with others that therapy is probably the best option for you.  The ways I got over worrying about it may just make you more worried.  Marlene Winell does recovering from harmful religion therapy and I think she offers teleconference sessions http://marlenewinell.net/page/recovery-harmful-religion

[Asherah]

I can speak from experience on this. I have been clinically diagnosed with OCD. Invasive thoughts from OCD are usually in the "What if" category....What if I abuse my child.....what if I stab my husband....what if I drive the car off the road and kill everyone in it... I struggled for years and had no idea what was going on. I thought I was losing my mind. Once I went to therapy and found out what was wrong, that alone made a dramatic impact on my anxiety. Just knowing that I wasn't crazy was a huge help! But, you obviously know what you have and are still struggling. So, definitely therapy is a must!!

OCD thoughts usually can't really be rationalized away. What do you do to get the thoughts to go away? Are there are compulsive behaviors or compulsive thoughts? These compulsive behaviors and thoughts are something that you use to make the initial "What if" thought go away. So, you might try to rationalize the thought away....you might try to imagine yourself not going to hell when you die....or maybe there's something you do to get the thoughts to go away. At any rate, that is only momentary relief. Then, the thoughts return. And, I have learned that the compulsive side of OCD feeds the thoughts. It actually makes things worse. You have to learn other methods to help your mind relax. So, therapy!