Thou Shalt Not Test The Lord

[Thunder Road]

This has always bothered the hell out of me: the condition that you must have faith and can never expect God to show anything to you.

So the guy created every plant and animal on earth, and all its cells and each cell's atoms, and all the planets in our solar system and all the solar systems in our galaxy and all the galaxies in the universe and the universe itself...he's omnipotent and omnipresent, he actually exists in our thoughts and in everybody's thoughts at the same time...and yet he can't spare 2 minutes to pop in and say hi?


Seems pretty fishy to me.

[Asmodean]

I think the message is really "Thou shalt not question authority".

In an alpha-male dominated society, that is how it goes.

[Stevil]

If you were to invent a religion, these are some of the bare essentials that you would include

God is all powerful    (do not bother resisting)
God is love    (trust your god, he wants the best for you)
God is omnipresent    (God knows everything, you can't hide, not even your thoughts)
Mankind has fallen from grace    (You are not worthy, you must repent, you must prove yourself)
You must have faith    (don't look for any proof, you wont find it. Faith is proof that you are worthy of god, If you look for proof you are failing)
Non believers go to hell for eternal torment   (you must join the exclusive club, otherwise face unimaginable pain for all eternity)
God loves you and wants to be reunited with you    (Guilt trip, it is your fault, it is you that must take action, your loving god awaits)

+ a whole bunch of stories that are just filler material in order to make the book seem substantial, otherwise people might laugh at a one paragraph religion. (maybe grab stories from other religions if you are running out of ideas)

Basically it sets up an exclusive group where you must comply, it gives fear of non compliance, it degrades and abuses the mind of the audience until they desire a dependent relationship with the religion in order to build them up again, but with god injected into their new self worth.

Next, sell this idea to the governing bodies, tell them that they can put some morals into the book and control people with less force.
Next start burning everyone who doesn't believe. Make up a name for it, maybe Heretic and then create a mantra "burn the heretic!"

[Asmodean]

Why Asmos have a natural immunity:

God is all powerful    (do not bother resisting)

Infinity is infinite, but one can increase it or decrease it. First, get even more infinite powers, then kick god's ass.

God is love    (trust your god, he wants the best for you)

...And The Asmo is the resulting divorse rates.

God is omnipresent    (God knows everything, you can't hide, not even your thoughts)

Because of 1, The Asmo doesn't care

Mankind has fallen from grace    (You are not worthy, you must repent, you must prove yourself)

The Asmo is content with not being worthy in nearly every eye save for The Asmo's.

You must have faith    (don't look for any proof, you wont find it. Faith is proof that you are worthy of god, If you look for proof you are failing)

The Asmo regards failure as an integral part of progress.

Non believers go to hell for eternal torment   (you must join the exclusive club, otherwise face unimaginable pain for all eternity)

The Asmo will be the torturer.

God loves you and wants to be reunited with you    (Guilt trip, it is your fault, it is you that must take action, your loving god awaits)

The Asmo doesn't love it and does not want to be reunited with it. Third party feelings towards The Asmo are meaningless unless The Asmo gives a shit about that third party.

[The Magic Pudding]

Seems pretty fishy to me.

Ye but everybody else is buying it.  It must be OK.

[Tristan Jay]

The very simple thing that God should realize, if He really thought about it, is how much we don't like to be tested in certain ways.  There are some tests that are useful and qualifying, but there are others that are degrading.  I suppose God would complain that trying to test him would be degrading to his dignity or something.

I just wish he would remember that, when it comes to the prospect of him testing us.  If he doesn't like it, why would he think that we would?  As if he doesn't think we've got enough to put up with here on Earth, then he wants to play games.  Great sense of perspective, God.   

[Sandra Craft]

This has always bothered the hell out of me: the condition that you must have faith and can never expect God to show anything to you.

Which always made me wonder about the story of Doubting Thomas.  I know the moral is supposed to that doubting is wrong but look at what happens -- he doubts, as any reasonable person would, and he's given proof!  A very sensible solution to a reasonable problem.  If one person can be excused from having faith, from believing without proof, then what's the big deal for the rest of us?

[Stevil]

The very simple thing that God should realize, if He really thought about it, is how much we don't like to be tested in certain ways.

God doesn't like the golden rule, it is no fun.
Absolute power corrupts and the god is supposedly all powerful.

[Guardian85]

"Thou shalt not test the Lord"? Oh, yes thou shalt!

[pytheas]

in the ancient text "pisteve kai min erevna" meaning "believe and do not investigate"

is as ambiguous as it needs be.

about the lord, it's not only fishy, it's stinking and a reason to investigate. What did apostle thomas do? I want to poke the holes myself, see the rotting corpse rise before my eyes. Hearsay is for donkeybrains. 

about the utility of believing, however, it is not that bad. Given that in situations were reason can have an effect, believing is redundant, and in the few occasions when believing is a painkiller, investigative reasoning easily cancels unsubstantiated blind faith. So in order to savour the benefits of self-hypnosis one should not wake up.

[Davin]

This has always bothered the hell out of me: the condition that you must have faith and can never expect God to show anything to you.

One of the things that bothered me, was that two lessons from the bible are contradictory: "Believe without question" and "thou shalt have no other gods before me."

It seems that if you follow one, you can't make sure you're following the other. In order to make sure one is not worshiping the wrong god, one would need to run a few tests. And if one just believes without questioning or testing, then one is only saved if the first god they believed in without testing was the correct one.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

This has always bothered the hell out of me: the condition that you must have faith and can never expect God to show anything to you.

Which always made me wonder about the story of Doubting Thomas.  I know the moral is supposed to that doubting is wrong but look at what happens -- he doubts, as any reasonable person would, and he's given proof!  A very sensible solution to a reasonable problem.  If one person can be excused from having faith, from believing without proof, then what's the big deal for the rest of us?

Thomas was given sufficient proof for him - it was a personal revelation of and from Jesus. If you sincerely want a personal revelation from Jesus, ask him for it, just like Thomas did.  Put the ball in his court.

[pytheas]

If you sincerely want a personal revelation from Jesus, ask him for it, just like Thomas did.  Put the ball in his court.

Sure!
Have done.
By now he will have to leave a message.
If he dares show up, many will want to shove the ball up his holy ___ss

[Traveler]

If you were to invent a religion, these are some of the bare essentials that you would include...

Actually, if I were to create a religion it'd be pretty optional. "Hey, y'all, find your own path, ok? Be kind to one another, use your brain, and have some fun. Remember the 'be kind' part, but other than that, walk as you will.... Oh, and if you have any questions, I'll be over here smelling the roses, but remember to take it with a grain of salt ok? See 'find your own path' above."

... But then I'm not a power-hungry, power-over-others, patriarchal type.

[Gawen]

Thomas was given sufficient proof for him - it was a personal revelation of and from Jesus. If you sincerely want a personal revelation from Jesus, ask him for it, just like Thomas did.  Put the ball in his court.

I did that back in '75. Still waiting on him. Far as I'm concerned, the test failed.