Disproving the bible?

[yepimonfire]

minus the already obvious contradictions of itself, and the scientifically inaccurate statements, what are some things that actually disprove the bibles validity? what about historical facts? was there a flood? is there any mention of an ark being built? what about jesus and the early church? what about prophecies made in the bible?

[Ecurb Noselrub]

minus the already obvious contradictions of itself, and the scientifically inaccurate statements, what are some things that actually disprove the bibles validity? what about historical facts? was there a flood? is there any mention of an ark being built? what about jesus and the early church? what about prophecies made in the bible?

Depends on what you mean by "validity."  The "Bible" is actually 66 separate writings (if we are talking about the Protestant Christian Bible), so you have to look at each writing to determine it's historical worth. There are historical accuracies in the various books, so to that extent, those books have some historical "validity." There are also various legends and mistakes and inaccuracies.  It's not a one-size-fits-all inquiry. Your question is very broad.  Perhaps if you narrowed it down to a particular issue that you want to discuss it will be more manageable. 

[Asmodean]

No matter how much you disprove it, some people will still "follow" it, for a whole mess of usually not-too-good reasons.

Beyond that, what Bruce said holds its water nicely.

[Whitney]

Well, there is no evidence of a global flood.  But a gracious reader could simply assume that by global the writer simply didn't know anything past whatever areas he had traveled....a very large localized flood; of which there have been many.

[Sweetdeath]

Considered in this day and age, we still have not discovered every species of animal, I highly doubt an old man in a dinky boat existed.
Look at these stories, they are ridiculous and cannot make any sense in reality. :/

[Crow]

Considered in this day and age, we still have not discovered every species of animal, I highly doubt an old man in a dinky boat existed.
Look at these stories, they are ridiculous and cannot make any sense in reality. :/

Don't forget about all the creatures that have gone extinct, even if you just include the ones that humanity has wiped out. Also throw into the mix disease and food storage.

If you just look at the bible to see what it says about Noah's ark you see how silly it is, I have done it for you. If you start with the measurements presented in the bible (KJV) which were "300 cubits, its length; 50 cubits, its width; by 30 cubits, its height" then convert those into modern measurements, if you use the Egyptian royal cubit at its most generous a single cubit is the equivalent of 52.9cm so that equates to L:158.7 meters, W:26.45 meters, H:15.87 meters. Compare that with largest ship that has been created so far which is the Seawise Giant at L:458.46 meters. Next look at how many animals and birds of each kind were suppose to have been taken which in the KJV states "of every clean animal take you seven pairs, each with its mate (28 total), and of every animal that is not clean, one pair, each with its mate (4). Of the fowl of the heavens as well seven pairs (14), male and female, to keep seed alive upon the earth". So that's 28 of each type of clean animal, 4 of each of the unclean animals, and 14 of each kind of bird. Then the amount of mammals, reptile, and bird species we know about is estimated to be around 23,612, and if you are generous and decide that only 4 of each kind come along that is 94,448 but that's not what it says so if you just do the bird species that alone come to a total of 139,356. So I call bullshit and there are loads of other angles you can look at that show how silly this story is.

(edit: to try and make it slightly more readable)

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Well, there is no evidence of a global flood.  But a gracious reader could simply assume that by global the writer simply didn't know anything past whatever areas he had traveled....a very large localized flood; of which there have been many.

I once read a calculation by someone who showed that a large localized flood in Southern Iraq could have temporarily created a large inland sea that would have taken weeks to drain off.  Someone stuck out in a boat or raft on that would think that the whole world was flooded.  Think of being in the middle of Lake Superior, for example.  That man could have escaped with his family and a few farm animals, and that would have been the seed for the story.  Stories get bigger and bigger as they are told.  This story was probably passed around for generations, and made it's appearance in various cultures in different forms. There is probably a seed of truth to most of the Old Testament stories.

By the way, Noah was the greatest business man in history.  He floated a limited partnership while the rest of the world was in liquidation.

Some stories like Samson killing a thousand people with the jawbone of an ass (was he a politician?) or Jonah being swallowed by a big fish (a Hebrew Pinnochio?) are legendary in form, but still probably originate from the experience of some person.  Once you get out of the Torah, Joshua and Judges, and move into Samuel, Kings, etc., you get a little more historical (with theological interpretations and editing, of course), as people started to actually keep written records - especially scribes employed by kings and priests.  But even then you get lots of editing. So the Old Testament is a mixed bag of fact, fiction, and fable. You just have to sift through the rubble to find the historical nuggets.

[Sweetdeath]

Wow, thanks for breaking down the numbers, Crow. <3

[xSilverPhinx]

By the way, Noah was the greatest business man in history.  He floated a limited partnership while the rest of the world was in liquidation.

I don't know if I should laugh at that or facepalm...

[Sweetdeath]

By the way, Noah was the greatest business man in history.  He floated a limited partnership while the rest of the world was in liquidation.

I don't know if I should laugh at that or facepalm...

[Too Few Lions]

Like others have said, there's no evidence for the flood. The Greeks had their own Noah (called Deucalion), and the Greek and Roman sources state that the flood myth was just a myth, to do with the belief that the world was periodically cleansed by water and by fire. Hence Jesus claims he's going to destroy the Earth with fire, as a conflagration was next in the cycle.

There's also no evidence for the Exodus. No evidence from Egypt that the Israelites were ever there, and no archaeological evidence in the Levant to show an invasion from that period. Indeed the archaeological evidence suggests that the Israelites were originally Canaanites, and Judaism evolved out of Canaanite religion.

There's some historical basis for the later books like Judges and Kings, but there's also heaps of mythology in there too, and these books were written centuries after the time they depict. They also overegg the pudding in making the kingdoms of Judah and Israel sound far more important than they actually were, distorting the historical reality of the period.

As for the New Testament, it all depends upon wether or not you can believe in virgin births, walking on water, resurrections from the dead etc. We have no evidence for Jesus, the apostles or a first century Church outside of the New Testament, and a lot of the gospels' story of Jesus can be found in the mythology of earlier gods, saviours, philosophers, heroes and sons of gods. There may have been a historical man behind the myth or there may not, I think that only matters if you're a Christian.

The archaeological evidence for early Christianity is surprisingly scarce, which makes me personally question the validity of the history the Church has written about itself. We have no archaeological evidence for Christianity prior to the third century, and absolutely nothing dated to the first century.

[Asmodean]

By the way, Noah was the greatest business man in history.  He floated a limited partnership while the rest of the world was in liquidation.

I don't know if I should laugh at that or facepalm...

Both. Works for me *LWFP - Laughing While FacePalm* 

[OldGit]

No matter how much you disprove it, some people will still "follow" it, for a whole mess of usually not-too-good reasons.

I'm afraid that's right.  Whatever proofs are brought, faithheads will find a way round.  They want and need to believe, and a few little facts won't bother them.  We've seen that on this forum.

In Arthur C Clarke's SF novel Childhood's End, the alien Overlords provide mankind with machines that can look back in time and view past events.  In Clarke's story that killed all religions, but I've often thought that it probably wouldn't.  The nutters would simply deny the validity of the machine, as they now do with our present science.  As for archaeology, biblical contradictions and so on - forget it!

[yepimonfire]

Well, there is no evidence of a global flood.  But a gracious reader could simply assume that by global the writer simply didn't know anything past whatever areas he had traveled....a very large localized flood; of which there have been many.

I once read a calculation by someone who showed that a large localized flood in Southern Iraq could have temporarily created a large inland sea that would have taken weeks to drain off.  Someone stuck out in a boat or raft on that would think that the whole world was flooded.  Think of being in the middle of Lake Superior, for example.  That man could have escaped with his family and a few farm animals, and that would have been the seed for the story.  Stories get bigger and bigger as they are told.  This story was probably passed around for generations, and made it's appearance in various cultures in different forms. There is probably a seed of truth to most of the Old Testament stories.

By the way, Noah was the greatest business man in history.  He floated a limited partnership while the rest of the world was in liquidation.

Some stories like Samson killing a thousand people with the jawbone of an ass (was he a politician?) or Jonah being swallowed by a big fish (a Hebrew Pinnochio?) are legendary in form, but still probably originate from the experience of some person.  Once you get out of the Torah, Joshua and Judges, and move into Samuel, Kings, etc., you get a little more historical (with theological interpretations and editing, of course), as people started to actually keep written records - especially scribes employed by kings and priests.  But even then you get lots of editing. So the Old Testament is a mixed bag of fact, fiction, and fable. You just have to sift through the rubble to find the historical nuggets.

if i remember correctly the old testament was supposedly written by moses? which of course brings us to the story of moses and how much fact there is to that. i have no problem disbeleiving stories like jonah, anybody with a brain knows that is impossible for a variety of reasons. then there is also another question especially about the new testament, did jesus actually exist? if so did he actually perform miracles? so far i have yet to find any records of jesus (and even those are mere mentions of it) that aren't written 100 or more years after he died. i also wonder what about the prophecy of the temple being destroyed? i mean, if i remember correctly, it actually was destroyed by rome. (correct me if im wrong, not the greatest history-wise)

[Too Few Lions]

if i remember correctly the old testament was supposedly written by moses? which of course brings us to the story of moses and how much fact there is to that. i have no problem disbeleiving stories like jonah, anybody with a brain knows that is impossible for a variety of reasons. then there is also another question especially about the new testament, did jesus actually exist? if so did he actually perform miracles? so far i have yet to find any records of jesus (and even those are mere mentions of it) that aren't written 100 or more years after he died. i also wonder what about the prophecy of the temple being destroyed? i mean, if i remember correctly, it actually was destroyed by rome. (correct me if im wrong, not the greatest history-wise)

Yeah, I doubt very much that Moses ever existed, I'd put the likelihood at something similar to Cadmus or Orpheus having existed. The books ascribed to Moses mostly date from the 8th-6th centuries BCE, long after his supposed lifetime.

You're right about the non-Christian mentions of Jesus being written at least a century after his lifetime, and generally based on hearsay. I think Jesus' temple prediction is easy to explain, that part of the gospel of Mark was written after the temple at Jerusalem had been destroyed in 70CE.

Damn it, that's my 666th post, I'm not sure I want to post again, this way I get to keep the title 'Evil Inside'. I might have to rejoin as a newbie!