Re: What About Dignity?

[Whitney]

Assuming there is no God, can there really be any such thing as dignity or can there only be the illusion of dignity?

If dignity is in essence a feeling of self worth then you wouldn't need an outside source to justify that feeling.  So there is no need for god to exist for dignity to be true.  Not to mention that if an "greater" outside source were needed for dignity to not simply be self delusion (not sure how an emotional state can be an illusion but whatever) then society as a whole would serve that purpose (and for many actually does serve that purpose).

[xSilverPhinx]

This thread is interesting, but still rather tough to answer.

Firstly I agree with what Fi said:

When I was a Christian, I was told I was a worthless, sinful creature, and that I deserved nothing but the fires of hell no matter how good I tried to be. That without Jesus, I was nothing. That did not give me dignity. That did not improve my self-worth.

If Christian 'dignity' is that, then it's unimpressive and just odd. I don't see people spouting those sorts of ideas as dignified...

As for what I think of dignity, I don't know yet. I guess, to me, some are more dignified than others, and if they are, then they are. I might be fallaciously equating it with respect for characters that are dignified, though. 

[Whitney]

I don't worry or care too much about whether something's "dignified" because it's such a vague term anyway.

I agree...and it's almost archaic too.  It's a word that is most often used in formal settings to describe how a person (usually male) carries their own presence.  So a man in a fancy suit with an air of confidence in the way he holds up his head, speaks, and moves his arms will be considered dignified by onlookers (regardless of his true inner emotional state).  When someone's self esteem is hurt today they don't talk about a loss of dignity they talk about a loss of pride (perhaps that is a better word for what egor was trying to ask...not sure).

I think the OP is just another version of "why don't you hate yourself if there is no god" type of questions that we see frequently and are always confused on how someone could even think to ask such nonsense.

[xSilverPhinx]

I don't worry or care too much about whether something's "dignified" because it's such a vague term anyway.

I agree...and it's almost archaic too.  It's a word that is most often used in formal settings to describe how a person (usually male) carries their own presence.  So a man in a fancy suit with an air of confidence in the way he holds up his head, speaks, and moves his arms will be considered dignified by onlookers (regardless of his true inner emotional state).  When someone's self esteem is hurt today they don't talk about a loss of dignity they talk about a loss of pride (perhaps that is a better word for what egor was trying to ask...not sure).

Alfa status, perhaps (though still, there is a difference from claiming that one is alfa and actually being alfa). Certainly in line with the holier-than-thou type religious, which I do not see as dignified (to use the archaic word).

[history_geek]

Read most of the thread and the vibe I get from this that "Where does your dignity come from" is the new "Where do you get your morals".

I do not consider my self as a very dignified person, for lot's of reasons, not the least because of my main vices that include excessive lazyness (I'm working on it...one of these days...). However, I do think that people can act in a dignified way, which to me is somewhere between "better then avarage table manners" and "a step away from being a bloody snob about it". Or perhaps I'm mixing that with "refined"....?

Now, the more important issue here is that you, Egor, obviously believe that we recive dignity from someone, as if it was a package in a mail with a ribbon and pretty couloured wrapping with your name on it. If it only were that easy... Dignity, and morals for that matter, are not semthing that you get in a ready-to-go manner, but is something that is refined through experince, interaction with other people and, in the lack of a better way of putting it, self-discovery. As others have already noted, it is a social thing rather then a matter of "believing in the right sky daddy". and that leads to the question: who would you get dignity by beliving in YHWH/Jesus/Allah, and not in Shiva or the Deistic god? Why is it so specific? Because one believes that ones religion is more "truthfull" then any other? Because a sripture says so?

There is no way to combat historical ignorance. If you can't look at the last 2000 years and see the impact the life and teachings of Jesus Christ have had on the world, the monumental amount of writing from the first and second centuries about him (especially if you include all the gnostic writings), I can't make you see his reality. It is very likely something wonderful happened right around 30 AD, and what happened changed the world, and continues to change people's lives.

(snip)

I'm curious, have you ever actually read one of the Gospels?

Well, first of all, the first 4 or so centuries were not very kind for this new religion. They lived within an empire that required the worship of the ruling Emperor as a living deity, much in the way of the Pharaos, and their scriptures forbade such a thing, as they were not to have any other "gods" then YHWH or Jesus, depending on the interpitation that was not set in cler until after the Council of Nikea and it's subsequent meetings. It was only after Theodosius I who made Chrsitianity, that was odd to most theists of the time, the State Religion of his empire that it went from strenght to strenght. The reason why it was view as odd was because it only had one "god" that did everything, and that is forbade the worship of other "gods". Basicly you no longer needed to pay tribute to half a dozen of deities from a handful of religions in order to insure a safe trip to teh neighbouring town or victory on the battlefield, a simple prayer to one "god" provided all the good fortunes needed.

And the fact that the "monumental ammount" of writings about this supposed "Jesus" were written late in the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D do nothing to dispel the fact that the only writings that would be from his times are religious scriptures that themselves were written by people who never met the person they were writing about. This makes "Jesus" at best a historical possibility, either as a person or that there was a person or persons whom were used as inspiration for the biblical character. The only way to think otherwise, is to believe in the christian mythology.

And certainly, chrsitinaity has changed peoples lives. But not always for the better, because of it's unfortunate ambiguety that allows wide interpitations to fit the motives of almost any kind of people. From benevolent rulers to people who do not want their world view of being specially chosen to be challenged and allowing the use of violence to defend it. Unfortunately few took up the Golden Rule that the biblical Jesus tried to pass on amongst other things, a philosophical advice that had already existed centuries before his credited times, and which can be found in religions such as Confucianism, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism.

I can honestly say that I haven't read any of the gospels, cannonic or non-cannon, from cover to cover. My only touch with them is basicly what I learned during the religions classes in school (religion being a mandatory school subject here in Finland), and even that concentrated on the journeys of some of the apostoles and the hippies side of Jesus with the Golden Rule and all, with the rest mostly being church history. And on two grades we went over the other religions of the world, as marginally as can be with still having the ability to say that one knows something about them....

[Too Few Lions]

dignity is a very archaic word, ultimately derived from the Roman concept of dignitas, which roughly meant 'the sum of the personal clout and influence that a male citizen acquired throughout his life' (from wikipedia). I'm not sure I need dignity really, it all seems very old fashioned, so I guess I too can ask the question 'What about dignity?' while shrugging my shoulders.

Plus, as others have pointed out, there's nothing in the definition of dignity that relates to belief in a deity.

[Asmodean]

Thank you, history_geek, for making a proper answer where I didn't really bother 

[history_geek]

Thank you, history_geek, for making a proper answer where I didn't really bother 

No prob....wait, I did something right?!

And I am a history geek after all, so I really wouldn't live up to my name if I didn't take the time to lecture about it every once in a while

[Too Few Lions]

There is no way to combat historical ignorance. If you can't look at the last 2000 years and see the impact the life and teachings of Jesus Christ have had on the world, the monumental amount of writing from the first and second centuries about him (especially if you include all the gnostic writings), I can't make you see his reality. It is very likely something wonderful happened right around 30 AD, and what happened changed the world, and continues to change people's lives.

And the fact that the "monumental ammount" of writings about this supposed "Jesus" were written late in the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D do nothing to dispel the fact that the only writings that would be from his times are religious scriptures that themselves were written by people who never met the person they were writing about. This makes "Jesus" at best a historical possibility, either as a person or that there was a person or persons whom were used as inspiration for the biblical character. The only way to think otherwise, is to believe in the christian mythology.

Plus it's worth mentioning that we don't have any extant Christian writings that date to the first century, and only two that have definitely been dated to the second century (and they've not been radiocarbon dated, they're dated on the handwriting style!) So we really don't have a 'monumental amount' of Christian writings dated to this period.

What we have is fragments of New Testament books that were written centuries after Jesus' supposed lifetime, and the assumption that these works originally date to the first century. Even if it turns out they do originally date this early, we still don't know how much of them are original and how much might be interpretations or alterations by scribes over the centuries. Take the gospel of Mark for example, generally considered the earliest gospel, yet our earliest extant fragment dates to 350 CE, some 280 years after its supposed original composition.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

"Dignity" today seems to relate to self-esteem or self-worth.  A person could get his/her self-esteem or sense of self-worth from parents, from teachers, from self, from philosophy, from personal achievements, from any number of sources.  It really boils down to how one feels about one's person.  For the theist, experience with God or scripture can be another source, but there are multiple sources for everyone.  Humans in general are at the pinnacle of the food chain, so whether you view yourself as being made in the image of God or as being the most advanced step in the process of evolution (or both), humans are still the "crown of creation" under either scenario, so there is a valid basis for having a positive image of self either way.

[Stevil]

Where does an atheist deriver his or her sense of worth and high placement?

High placement is a relative term, do you mean in relation to other people, other animals, or inanimate objects.
I do not place myself above any of those, although being me I tend to try and cater to my needs and wants above others. I expect others are responsible for catering to their own needs and wants, except for my dependant children, I feel it is my responsibility to cater for them.

Sense of worth?
With regards to what? I don't think of my life as requiring a defined sense of worth, I am alive and I simply go about my business living that life.

[Crow]

There is no way to combat historical ignorance. If you can't look at the last 2000 years and see the impact the life and teachings of Jesus Christ have had on the world, the monumental amount of writing from the first and second centuries about him (especially if you include all the gnostic writings), I can't make you see his reality. It is very likely something wonderful happened right around 30 AD, and what happened changed the world, and continues to change people's lives.

Are you familiar with Alan Turing? In well under a 100 years the impact this man has had on humanity has by far exceeded the impact that Jesus or any other religious figure has ever had on humanity, his works have infiltrated every society all over the world no matter what their belief system. He was the father of computer science and artificial intelligence and a true genius with a totally new way of thinking that eventually changed the way that humanity fundamentally lives and interacts with society around them. Not only was his works in mathematics so brilliant it lead to the revolution of computing, it lead to AI which have influenced scientists, mathematicians, science fiction writers, and artists the world over. On top of that his work on mathematical biology specifically morphogenesis which again helped changed the worlds understanding on biology and strengthened the theory of evolution. He did all this without asking to be worshiped as deity, he was persecuted for being himself which was a law created due to Christianity, that caused the man to be chemically castrated by the British government and hounded by the police until his death.

[Egor]

What you're saying is that you can only feel good about yourself by convincing yourself that you have found favor in the eyes of, well, let's just state it as it is, an invisible magical man who lives in the sky.

No, let's not state it as you'd have it. I never said, nor do I believe, that God is a man, that he is magical or that he lives in the sky. That's your strawman, not mine. And if that's how you justify your atheism, then your atheism is ridiculous.

So, let's review:

- Atheists find dignity based on what kind of person they are and what sort of talents and accomplishments define them as individuals.

So, they award themselves dignity? They judge themselves and pin on their own medals?

- Xians find dignity through blind worship and obedience to a mythic figure...sort of like the Greeks worshipping Zeus, or the Vikings worshipping Odin, or the Egyptians worshipping Ra, or the ...

You get the idea.

No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.

But even if god were real don't you think you could still find something more prosaic to feel good about than just being yet another sycophantic pet to an all-powerful lord and master?  You're not just proud of it, you're arrogant about it.  Why is that?

If God is real, and He allows me to by his sycophantic pet, then I'm lucky and honored, because the sycophantic pet of God is a higher being than one who can't see God at all. Thus, "dignity." In other words, if God is real, you're not even a sycophantic pet of his. And that's a pretty low place to be. Isn't it?

Do you praise him louder and longer than other Xians?  Why do you feel he's impressed with you?  What about you compelled god to pause in his busy schedule of...whatever it is he does, to say to himself "Hmm, that Ed Gordon, he's a good bit of a-ok!"

I sought him. Like other true Christians, I was created by him and then with my free will and desire, I went looking for him. He turned on a lighthouse (sent Jesus Christ) and I changed my course to move toward it. That's it.

Personally, I'm more impressed with your commitment to writing and love of dogs than in all of the Xian boilerplate I'm certain we're going to hear from you.

Well, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they?  

[Tank]

What you're saying is that you can only feel good about yourself by convincing yourself that you have found favor in the eyes of, well, let's just state it as it is, an invisible magical man who lives in the sky.

No, let's not state it as you'd have it. I never said, nor do I believe, that God is a man, that he is magical or that he lives in the sky. That's your strawman, not mine. And if that's how you justify your atheism, then your atheism is ridiculous.

So, let's review:

- Atheists find dignity based on what kind of person they are and what sort of talents and accomplishments define them as individuals.

So, they award themselves dignity? They judge themselves and pin on their own medals?

- Xians find dignity through blind worship and obedience to a mythic figure...sort of like the Greeks worshipping Zeus, or the Vikings worshipping Odin, or the Egyptians worshipping Ra, or the ...

You get the idea.

No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.

But even if god were real don't you think you could still find something more prosaic to feel good about than just being yet another sycophantic pet to an all-powerful lord and master?  You're not just proud of it, you're arrogant about it.  Why is that?

If God is real, and He allows me to by his sycophantic pet, then I'm lucky and honored, because the sycophantic pet of God is a higher being than one who can't see God at all. Thus, "dignity." In other words, if God is real, you're not even a sycophantic pet of his. And that's a pretty low place to be. Isn't it?

Do you praise him louder and longer than other Xians?  Why do you feel he's impressed with you?  What about you compelled god to pause in his busy schedule of...whatever it is he does, to say to himself "Hmm, that Ed Gordon, he's a good bit of a-ok!"

I sought him. Like other true Christians, I was created by him and then with my free will and desire, I went looking for him. He turned on a lighthouse (sent Jesus Christ) and I changed my course to move toward it. That's it.

Personally, I'm more impressed with your commitment to writing and love of dogs than in all of the Xian boilerplate I'm certain we're going to hear from you.

Well, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they?  

Pack it in Edward, nobody here has personally attacked you, do it again and you'll find yourself on the naughty step. You're just trolling now.

[Asmodean]

So, they award themselves dignity?

It's not something you "award" yourself. Once you see yourself as having dignity, you have it from your perspective.

They judge themselves and pin on their own medals?

There is a subtle implication that there is something wrong with that. What?

Is it wrong to recognise one's own achievements and credit oneself for them?

No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.

...Which gives you not a scrap of dignity in my book, but if it toots your horn, then it toots your horn.

If God is real, and He allows me to by his sycophantic pet, then I'm lucky and honored, because the sycophantic pet of God is a higher being than one who can't see God at all. Thus, "dignity." In other words, if God is real, you're not even a sycophantic pet of his. And that's a pretty low place to be. Isn't it?

No, licking god's balls does not elevate you over any-one... Just makes you a bitch to something you can't even prove exists.

I sought him. Like other true Christians, I was created by him and then with my free will and desire, I went looking for him. He turned on a lighthouse (sent Jesus Christ) and I changed my course to move toward it. That's it.

Why..? Why not just give him a big "Fuck you!" and go on about your life in a manner defined by you and not by your superstition?

Well, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they? 

Oh please! His (Or her... Don't remember who authored the quote) way of spelling it is an attempt at mild mockery of your precious lord and master. Don't read more into words than what is there - that's how people fall into all this religious nonsense to begin with.