Re: What About Dignity?

[Asmodean]

There is no way to combat historical ignorance. If you can't look at the last 2000 years and see the impact the life and teachings of Jesus Christ have had on the world, the monumental amount of writing from the first and second centuries about him (especially if you include all the gnostic writings), I can't make you see his reality. It is very likely something wonderful happened right around 30 AD, and what happened changed the world, and continues to change people's lives.

Crusades, inquisition, persecution of pagans, gays, witches and who knows how many other groups of people... Maybe if, hypothetically, Jesus of the bible did exist, he did not mean for that to hapen, and yet, in the name of Christianity, humanity did hit a few all-time lows. Yes, your particular religion did influence the world, but whether or not it was in a generally good direction... That's debateable. And me, I lean towards "not", for promoting ignorance, discrimination, submission without questioning, ignoring standing facts... The list is long.

How was it, in your opinion, that Christianity made the sorry world we live in a better place?

And now, are you actually telling me that the people in your life compare to Jesus Christ in your estimation?

Surpass, in fact. One of my acquaintances, for instance, is a transplant surgeon. What he does, I have a great respect for. You don't even have to pray for him to do it - it's his job, and he will do it if he can.

Then there is this other guy I know... He's pleasant to deal with even in the vilest of moods. Not in a creepy kind of way - he's just genuinely a nice person whos patience surpasses that of anyone else I've ever met... And being a high maintenance friend, I have tested the patience of pretty much everyone who ever gor close to me.

A girl I used to... Long story... Anyways, her job would sour a lemon, and yet she is proud of doing it and looks forward to waking up in the morning and going to work.

No imaginary friend could inspire me by example the way these people, and others, do every day.

Well, that must be one hell of a clique.

Among hundreds of slimey rocks, occasionally, there is a pearl. I just try to maintain my connection to those pearls.

It is true that the only way to know Jesus today is through the Gospel records of his life. We can't know him through direct physical experience.

...Which means you can not know Jesus at all, except through someone's subjective and possibly inaccurate writings.

I'm curious, have you ever actually read one of the Gospels?

I have read several, in fact. Was far from impressed on far too many levels.

Fix the quotes, and I will answer the rest.

[Asmodean]

Quotes fixed. Didn't see it at first...

So, you think Jesus was lacking in decency? Can you explain that?

He only used apparently infinite power to do some minor parlor tricks (Compared to the scope of that power)

A decent being with the powers of an all-powerful god to back him would, for starters, eliminate disease - from everyone, not just enough people to make oneself look good and/or interesting. I can continue, although I think that right there is quite enough.

So dignity comes from being productive and competent.

Depends... For me, those are good soures of it. Others can be creativity, accountability, loyalty and so on.

I would agree that everyone values themselves, that's why dignity can't really come from one's own appraisal, otherwise the arrogant theists would be more dignified than the humble atheists. I think we would agree that would be a delusional dignity.

There is a line to walk there, but however you slice it, thinking that a being with the powers of the Universe and beyond gives a crap about a microscopic little microbe among billions, which in this metaphor is an individual human, is highly arrogant.

The humble stance would be to assume that one is far beneath god's notice.

[Gawen]

The unsubstantiated assertion inferred that one cannot have dignity without God or a belief in it is preposterous. It is equally preposterous that "dignity" is wrought from the divine.

Dignity, or perhaps to be more specific (not that it matters), human dignity is a reality based ontological philosophical concept of a attribute inseparable from human nature and shared at numerous levels by all people. It is part of the overall question of 'what it means to be human'.

The OP really belongs in the Philosophical forum.

[Recusant]

Well, my point here was to suggest that in order to believe in dignity one must ultimately believe in God. A point I hope to prove.

It will be interesting to see how you will go about proving that point in a manner which is convincing to anyone here, considering the fact that the definition of the word "dignity" does not include any reference to the supernatural, let alone any deity.

But to digress, it is possible to read the teachings of Jesus Christ and have a conversion.

Agreed.

I know I was taken by the fact that he had the audacity to claim He was the Truth implying he wasn't just "telling" the truth like other philosophers. That would have either made him mad, a liar, or God. His influence over the world, as well as the rest of his teachings, rule out being mad or a liar. But I digress.

Your three options are too limited, in my opinion. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least a few other options that deserve consideration.

1. Jesus may not have been mad, or a liar, but simply delusional.

2. Jesus may have been referring to some sort of esoteric doctrine which has since been suppressed.

3. What he actually said may have been misrepresented by those who wrote about him decades after his death.

But avoiding making too much of an ass of yourself is striving for dignity, is it not?

No; dignity is a positive attribute. Attempting to avoid a negative attribute does not equal striving to attain a positive attribute.

You could have dignity from yourself, but that would be a kind of delusional dignity.

You have yet to provide evidence that this is the case, or even made an attempt to show why anybody should agree with your opinion on the matter.

You could have dignity from what others think about you, but that is capricious and can be taken away by those same people.

One would agree with this only if one believes that all other people's opinions are governed by mere caprice.

Or you can have dignity from the judgment of a being who is greater than yourself, but that could only be God. So that's why I ask where an atheist derives their dignity. Assuming there is no God, can there really be any such thing as dignity or can there only be the illusion of dignity?

When you've shown that the concept of dignity has anything to do with a deity, then your position may have some standing. Right now, you're ignoring the proper definition of the term in favor of your assertion that a deity is the ultimate source of dignity. That's not going to fly.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I think "dignity" is an emotionally loaded word that doesn't actually mean much of anything.

But if you're going to push the issue, I'd say that it's largely culturally relative. A Western notion of "dignity" is going to be very different from a Japanese notion, or an ancient Greece notion. Personally, I don't worry or care too much about whether something's "dignified" because it's such a vague term anyway.

[MadBomr101]

You could have dignity from yourself, but that would be a kind of delusional dignity. You could have dignity from what others think about you, but that is capricious and can be taken away by those same people. Or you can have dignity from the judgment of a being who is greater than yourself, but that could only be God. So that's why I ask where an atheist derives their dignity. Assuming there is no God, can there really be any such thing as dignity or can there only be the illusion of dignity?

So you dismiss any notion of a person being capable of possessing their own dignity.  To you, if it didn't come from god, it isn't real.

Step outside yourself for a moment and see the irony in this reasoning from an atheist point of view.  So far as we're concerned, your entire argument is based on an illusion so you're the only one here whose dignity is illusory.  Your whole sense of self-worth is based on nothing more than your imagined state of grace in the judgement of your phantom deity.

If we don't believe in god then your argument that our dignity can only come from him is clearly lost no matter how many times you restate it.  Your question has been answered.

[Gawen]

Step outside yourself for a moment and see the irony in this reasoning from an atheist point of view.  So far as we're concerned, your entire argument is based on an illusion so you're the only one here whose dignity is illusory.  Your whole sense of self-worth is based on nothing more than your imagined state of grace in the judgement of your phantom deity.

If we don't believe in god then your argument that our dignity can only come from him is clearly lost no matter how many times you restate it.  Your question has been answered.

Excellent!

[MadBomr101]

Excellent!

Thank you.  I'll be here all week.  Try the veal.  

[Tank]

Dignity is a subjective human concept, it is not measurable in the same sense as mass or voltage. There is no SI 'unit of dignity' the 'Dig'. Personally I think you are wasting your time trying to prove that a unquantifyable, culturally sensitive, abstract, subjective human concept (dignity) has to exist because another unquantifiable, culturally sensitive, abstract, subjective human concept (God) also exists. But it's your dime, so knock yourself out  

[Asmodean]

Dignity is a subjective human concept, it is not measurable in the same sense as mass or voltage. There is no SIO 'unit of dignity' the 'Dig'. Personally I think you are wasting your time to trying to prove that a unquantifyable, culturally sensitive, abstract, subjective human concept (dignity) has to exist because another unquantifiable, culturally sensitive, abstract, subjective human concept (God) also exists.

+1

But it's your dime, so knock yourself out  

Well, it does keep The Asmo from spending his sunday in utter boredom 

[Tank]

But it's your dime, so knock yourself out  

Well, it does keep The Asmo from spending his sunday in utter boredom  

I used to hate Sunday afternoons. As Douglas Adams wrote about one of his characters 'he was bored, he had taken all the baths one could and there was nothing else to do."

Now I have HAF! Woot!

[Asmodean]

I used to hate Sunday afternoons. As Douglas Adams wrote about one of his characters 'he was bored, he had taken all the baths one could and there was nothing else to do."

Now I have HAF! Woot!

YES. That. completely.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I used to hate Sunday afternoons. As Douglas Adams wrote about one of his characters 'he was bored, he had taken all the baths one could and there was nothing else to do."

Now I have HAF! Woot!

YES. That. completely.

Haha, Ditto  Actually, if it was 10 years ago, I'd probably be getting ready for church right now! Ahh, I think I'll just take a moment and bask in the glory of not having to do that 

[The Magic Pudding]

YES. That. completely.

Yoink. 

[Whitney]

Dignity or sense of worth is self derived and a person can find their dignity based on any number of things.  Considering how many Christians view themselves as just horrible sinners in need of salvation; I don't see how belief in God is a way of finding dignity anyway so your question doesn't make any sense.  Most of the Christian teachings call for being humbled in front of god, not dignified.