Illegal drugs

[pjkeeley]

Most of the 'moral' basis for the prohibition of illegal drugs is grounded on religion. There are references to 'intoxicants' in the Bible and Koran. Why was alcohol prohibited? The Temperance Movement was a religious movement. Religious sentiment has been at the heart of discussion over what people choose to do to their bodies for most of last century.

I'm sure the libertarians here will agree, no one should be allowed to tell us what we can and can't put in ourselves. All drugs should be made legal and atheists in particular should be supportive of policies furthering the cause of decriminalisation/legalisation of illicit substances.

Drug education should be left to parents and families. If governments must intervene by giving drug information to schools and the public, that information should be unbiased and accurate, starting with the assumption that anyone should be allowed to choose whether or not they use drugs, not be pursuaded from the get-go that all drugs are bad all of the time and that all drug users are addicts and bad people.

The unpopular fact is this: we have one life to live. We all want to enjoy it as best we can. Drugs can help, but only if they are used responsibly, in the same moderation as alcohol. Drugs have been used for thousands of years and have a long tradition of bringing communities together for celebration. They should be given the recognition they deserve, starting with the repeal of all draconian, RELIGIOUSLY INSPIRED drug laws.

[Mister Joy]

Personally, I'm not so radical. Trying to look at the smaller picture; I definitely think marijuana should be legal and it probably would be if it weren't for blackmail & bribery going on in our current government - which, incidentally, is one of the most corrupt this country has ever known. Whole areas of Bristol are pretty much owned by the yardies & everyone knows it - St. Paul's being the major one; you can stop a random stranger on the street and there'll be a 50/50 chance that he'll either have something to sell you or something to stab you with - and they'd do more or less anything to keep the trade here in their control. It's such a huge source of cash for organised crime, I have to wonder what sort of damage it'd do to those psychos over in London if it was suddenly made legal.

Also, even if you take the "cannabis is really bad, no one should ever do it" attitude, having it illegal is just sweeping dirt under the rug. It's still really easy to get any day of the week & a twelve year old would have no more trouble getting hold of some than I would. At least if it was legal they could control the quality of the stuff - make sure people aren't smoking ground up glass in the mix - enforce age restrictions etc.

Oooh, just a quick edit: it'd also open up a new legitimate market & more international trade benefiting all parties, so particularly with poorer countries that can only be a good thing.

[pjkeeley]

Also, even if you take the "cannabis is really bad, no one should ever do it" attitude, having it illegal is just sweeping dirt under the rug. It's still really easy to get any day of the week & a twelve year old would have no more trouble getting hold of some than I would. At least if it was legal they could control the quality of the stuff - make sure people aren't smoking ground up glass in the mix - enforce age restrictions etc.

Indeed.

I would simply extend the arguments you use to other drugs as well.

[Mister Joy]

I suppose that's rational yeah. Though the legalisation of all drugs seems a very distant concept to me & I've yet to fully get my head around it or anticipate what sort of effect it could have. I've seen people completely fuck themselves up on the more serious ones, from start to finish, some of them family, and I don't have a huge amount of faith in people's ability to keep their habits under control when it comes to stuff like speed or ecstasy (I trust myself because I find the effects of both pretty boring & ineffectual, while a lot of people take the "it's the answer to all my problems!" philosophy, especially with E). Also, aside from fags, booze and weed I don't know a whole lot about the specific politics surrounding each drug, so I don't feel I'm in such a good position to express my opinion.

[Whitney]

I definately think drugs like Marajuana should be legal.  I don't care for it myself but also don't see how it could harm society any more than alcohol or cigarettes.  

Since my mom is a recovering meth addict and I have personally seen how use of meth not only harms the individual but causes the user to harm others....I am not sure if it should be legal or not.  If it is made legal it should be controlled by the pharmacy and not OTC.  Since meth is not naturally occuring I see no reason why an argument couldn't be made for it being treated differently than other naturally occuring drugs (such as weed).

[Justice]

I strongly disagree with the idea of legalizing all drugs. Marijuana is only slightly more harmful than cigarettes, so I can see legalizing it. But when you talk about legalizing drugs like meth, cocaine and heroin, I think you are going too far.

Illegal drugs can cause paranoia, delusions and psychosis. This puts the safety of friends and family at risk. In addition, they can lead to death through either overdose or suicide. The rights of the user have to be balanced against the safety of family and friends.

I have seen plenty of lives destroyed by illegal drugs. I have also seen lives destroyed by legal ones (cigarettes and alcohol), but I do not think that legalizing more drugs will improve society in any measurable way.

By the way, assuming that all atheists are liberal and/or libertarian is not right, IMO.

[Tom62]

I fully agree with Justice.

[ryanvc76]

I think that marijuana is only illegal because it would be so difficult to tax.  I think that it is far less dangerous than tobacco or alcohol, but is also much easier to produce in the home.  Governments can't stand the idea of something so popular going untaxed.

Although I don't think the assumption was being made, I'll have to agree that not all atheists are libertarians.  After all, atheists realize how stupid some of the others are out there and recognize the need for laws to keep them from killing us all.

However, not all laws are in place to protect the people - some are to make money.  Things that give governments money and power, however dangerous they may be, are going to be allowed so that the rich and powerful can become more rich and powerful.  Take tobacco, alcohol AND religion for example.

[Whitney]

I was watching a show on the history channel (maybe it was discovery) the a while back about cocaine and it said that cocaine was only outlawed because white people thought it was making black people act crazy.  So, it is illegal for racist reasons rather than for health reasons.  Prior to that it was put in all sorts of products and even used as a 'cure' for alcoholism.

This is not to say that there isn't a reason to keep it illegal now...but the reasons for making it illegal in the first place were anything but honorable.

[Mister Joy]

Marijuana is only slightly more harmful than cigarettes, so I can see legalizing it

The amount of harm marijuana can allegedly do varies from source to source a great deal. It's one of these you-can't-trust-anyone scenarios. Weed is sometimes said to contain 4 times as many carcinogens as tobacco, sometimes 8, however THC - the actual drug in the stuff - is supposed to reduce your chances of getting cancer, according to some. It all contradicts itself and makes no sense & I can make a few guesses as to why that is.

Illegal drugs can cause paranoia, delusions and psychosis. This puts the safety of friends and family at risk. In addition, they can lead to death through either overdose or suicide. The rights of the user have to be balanced against the safety of family and friends.

All illegal drugs have completely different effects, so it isn't quite that simple as illegal drugs do this. This is a handy website, in case you haven't come across it already: http://www.thegooddrugsguide.com/

It's unbiased, it gives the good points, the bad points, the risks, all the details you could want to know right down to average street prices.

I think that marijuana is only illegal because it would be so difficult to tax. I think that it is far less dangerous than tobacco or alcohol, but is also much easier to produce in the home. Governments can't stand the idea of something so popular going untaxed.

It'd be taxed like crazy in my country, that wouldn't be a problem, so it can't be the sole reason otherwise our government, at least, would be more than eager to legalise it. I'm not sure how the whole 'non-merit goods' system works where you live.

And yeah, alcohol is genuinely nasty stuff. It's incredibly toxic for one thing; you can kind of tell that by the hangovers. Also, it's more addictive than a great number of class As & the withdrawal effects can kill in severe cases. If it were discovered today it would be made illegal instantly: straight up there with heroin, meth and all the others. I always tell this to my sister (she drinks gin like there's no tomorrow but has a huge moral high horse when it comes to weed) but she takes the 'it's legal, therefore it's not as bad for you' attitude without much thought. And I think it's much easier to make your own wine than it is to grow your own weed. All you need to make the most basic wine conceivable is sugar, water, yeast, a demijon and a valve. Don't even need to bother with finings if you're really that lazy. Mmmm, six whole bottles of yeasty water with a 14% alcohol content.

I definately think drugs like Marajuana should be legal. I don't care for it myself but also don't see how it could harm society any more than alcohol or cigarettes.

Ever been to Amsterdam? They seem to do fine there

I think that the law surrounding drugs is a tangled agglomeration of mixed messages. For instance, don't know if it's the same in the US and elsewhere but I assume it is, it's illegal to grow marijuana; pretty much as good as dealing. However, it's absolutely hunky-dory to have opium poppies sprouting all over your garden. And it isn't hugely difficult to extract either. I have the image of the police doing a search of some heroin dealer's house "Nope, sorry for the trouble sir, we didn't find any drugs, any suspicious plants... we found a load of lab equipment but you say that's for decorative purposes anyway. Oh, nice poppies by the way."

[rlrose328]

I do not agree that all atheists should support legalizing illegal drugs nor that all atheists are (or should be ) libertarian.  I'm liberal, but I know that anything stronger than marijuana should be strictly controlled because the user can become a danger to not only themsevles, but others as well, similar to second-hand smoke or drunk driving... but much worse.

Some drugs are so insipid, so controlling and damaging to the brain that the user is no longer capable of deciding for themselve what is and isn't good for them... and alcohol falls into this category.  However, I do believe that European countries with less restrictive alcohol laws have a much lower incidence of alcoholism?  What about drunk driving accidents?

Is it possible that legalizing these drugs will make them less prevalent than they are now just because they won't be verboten?  I don't think so.  I think it would be catastrophic to our society.  Then again, I, too, have been a close witness to the ravages of meth and heroin, so perhaps my view is skewed... and not in a good way.

[Mister Joy]

I think that legalising drugs could make them easier to strictly control, though.  If someone's going to take illegal drugs & go over the top then the fact that they're illegal isn't going to stop them. It just means that with all trade completely out of the control and eye of the state, we really have no idea what's going on. There are no valid statistics on how many drug users there are in any given area, for instance. It makes it far more dangerous: kids getting involved with criminals - who, if they do become completely addicted, will essentially own them lawlessly - no idea what's actually in the stuff they're taking and so on... It does seem slightly pointless to me.

Similar sort of thing on a smaller scale: A couple of months ago, the legal age to buy cigarettes was raised from 16 to 18 in the UK. People rave about this being a good thing and all they have to justify that argument is that tobacco smoking is very unhealthy. Yes it is... and? That doesn't go to say that there is any conceivable point in that course of action. I started smoking when I was thirteen; the age restrictions didn't stop me then and I wasn't even addicted at the time! A 16/17 year old who is addicted to cigarettes isn't going to think to him/herself "well gosh, I can't buy fags now because it'd be... *gasp* *shock* *horror* illegal  so I'm forced to quit." They're just going to think "so what? If they ID me at one store, I'll go to the one right next to it. Oh no, it might take me two minutes longer."

The truth is, nobody cares about legality when it comes to drugs, alcohol or cigarettes. They really don't, and I don't think it makes a blessed bit of difference to the number of users there are; it just means that there's no meaningful (ie. not fabricated) statistics on them, ergo they don't exist and everyone can relax comfortably with the wool over their eyes.

Then again, as I said before, I'm trying to only think about the small picture that is marijuana in particular. Baby steps are better for society...

[SteveS]

I'm sure the libertarians here will agree, no one should be allowed to tell us what we can and can't put in ourselves.

Called it right: I'm an atheist and a libertarian, and I agree with you.  I don't use any drugs besides alcohol, and I don't think taking many of them is a very good idea, but still ..... why would I have the right to tell somebody else that they can't?

[donkeyhoty]

I think that marijuana is only illegal because it would be so difficult to tax. I think that it is far less dangerous than tobacco or alcohol, but is also much easier to produce in the home. Governments can't stand the idea of something so popular going untaxed.

Actually it was a tax that made marijuana "illegal" in the US, at least at the federal level.
Business interests, especially Dupont and W.R.Hearst, were influential in getting this tax passed because hemp would be a competitor.  

There was also the racist element, this time both against Mexicans and African-Americans.  The Mexicans being credited for popularizing the drug in the early 1900s, but also being blamed for criminal activity while under the influence(specious claims at best).  Pot was also criticized for causing African-Americans to have sex, or rape, white women, and other crazy claims, see: Reefer Madness.  In conclusion, pot is only illegal because of business interests and racism.  It's much better(more fun) than tobacco and alcohol, and much safer, obviously it should be outlawed. :wink:


Also, why do you think the 1920s were called the "Roaring 20s"?  Because people were actually enjoying themselves whilst imbibing alcohol(despite Prohibition), doin' a little of the ol' fumar, and fucking(and women voting *gasp*).  Obviously people having fun really put a bee in the bonnet of the "moral majority", so all this jazz and dancing shit had to be stopped.  "Let's give them back their alcohol so we can make money instead of gangsters, and make sure the darkies don't cavort with white women no more.  And just for fun we'll ruin the economy, so no one'll have fun(that part's a joke)".  Consequently, no more "fun" until the 1960s.

The Roaring 20s, the first time everyone realized that religious moralizing was bullshit.  Too bad it didn't last,  people have always been bad with their money.

[ryanvc76]

Actually it was a tax that made marijuana "illegal" in the US, at least at the federal level.
Business interests, especially Dupont and W.R.Hearst, were influential in getting this tax passed because hemp would be a competitor.  

Damn... I learn something new here every day!