Psychic powers?

[Good and Godless]

I belong to a mom's group and last night we had a moms' night out.  It's amazing where a conversation can go when you don't have kids to distract you.

An atheist (me!), an agnostic, a Christian and a somewhat crazy person of questionable spirituality sat around a table having a drink and basking in our temporary childlessness.  The "crazyish" person said she was a licensed hypnotherapist and I immediately jumped on it since I just read Many Lives, Many Masters about regressive hypnotherapy.  She immediately started talking about what a great book it was, to the point that I became a bit uncomfortable when she asked for my opinion and I told her I thought the story was not only unlikely, but that the spiritual messages within the book were also very trite.

Anyway, she took it well and went on to say that she's had experiences and believes what she believes and is confident in that, etc.  She went on to tell me how she has predicted several deaths, how she knew the instant her brother was killed (though he was several hundred miles away), and how his spirit even lived in her body for 3 months.  She also went on to say that she knows that she and her brother were married in a past life (weird, right?), but how she has never "known" her mother before this life, and that is why they don't jive very well. 

She was good natured about that fact that I was clearly skeptical.  While her experience doesn't make me doubt my faithlessness, I get confused with conversations such as these.  People are so CERTAIN that they have had spiritual/supernatural/psychic experiences.  You can't argue with personal experience.  When I speak with people whose convictions are this strong, I almost have trouble not believing them.  However, I don't believe in it.  How do I resolve this?  What have you done when you encounter this?

Another question that I'm curious about:  Do you think that psychic abilities are necessarily supernatural?  Do you think a psychic connection or experience is possible within an atheistic worldview?

Please discuss!

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I once read an atheist's account of how he knew the precise moment when his father died unexpectedly, even though they were separated by thousands of miles with no communication. The time of death was later confirmed (according to his account) by family members.  This doesn't have to be supernatural, but it may fall in line with philosopher David Chalmers' idea that consciousness itself is a fundamental aspect of reality, like space-time. If so, our brains may act as sorts of receivers that can pick up on information existing within the conscious framework of the universe. 

[Stevil]

There are people who insist on:
having being abducted by aliens
having had a near death experience
having had previous lifes
having seen ghosts
having been possessed by demons
having seen loch ness
having seen big foot
having aliens travel down to their farm and create crop circles
having been visited by Jesus
having been visited by Allah
having been visited by YHWH
having been visited by dead relatives
having been raised from the dead
being able to read people's minds
being able to cure people
being able to harm people with black magic

If we believe anecdotal stories without questioning, without engaging reason and asking for evidence then we are open to believing anything that sounds good, this will distract us from knowing the real truth

[Whitney]

There are various psychological and medical explanations for how someone could honestly believe they had an experience when they really didn't have one.  False memories due to a traumatic event; sleep paralysis, etc.  So, I don't have issues discounting what someone honestly claims to be true if it doesn't fit reality as I perceive it; even less reason to accept them if the average person doesn't claim to have had a similar experience.

As for psychic powers...I'm going with no.  JREF has been trying to find a true psychic for years an not a single one of them has been able to demonstrate psychic ability under controlled conditions.

[Pharaoh Cat]

As for psychic powers...I'm going with no.  JREF has been trying to find a true psychic for years an not a single one of them has been able to demonstrate psychic ability under controlled conditions.

Psychic powers - yes, I agree.  Psychic phenomena in general - I don't know.  There may be something analogous to the Uncertainty Principle where psychic phenomena are concerned.  If you know X (or do X or force X) you can't know Y.  Controlled experiments (as currently conceived) may not be valid because they cause us to know (or do or force) X.  If we had any sense at all of what consciousness even is, we could make strong statements.  But we haven't the foggiest idea what consciousness is.  Let's start there, with that question.  Let's figure out what consciousness is.  Then, armed with that knowledge, let's consider the question of psychic phenomena.

[The Magic Pudding]

But we haven't the foggiest idea what consciousness is. 

I have a foggy idea as to what consciousness is, but I have lots of foggy ideas.
What's the big deal about conciousness anyway? 
The dolphin machine has less than us, our computers may soon have more.
We know our brains can be fooled, especially if we welcome delusion.

You may consider my conversations with a pudding I'm quantumly entangled with in the Andromeda galaxy as supernatural, but it isn't.

[xSilverPhinx]

I don't think there's anything more to this topic other than intuition in some cases, even if unconscious.

As for those weird stories about people having those wierd moments of insight at just the right moment - I don't know, but it isn't statistically significant. For every one person who was able to weirdly predict someone else's death, millions do not. 

...he knew the precise moment when his father died unexpectedly...

Was he ill? I ask because I'm curious to know whether it was indeed very unexpected.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

...he knew the precise moment when his father died unexpectedly...

Was he ill? I ask because I'm curious to know whether it was indeed very unexpected.

According to him, his father wasn't ill - totally unexpected. The atheist's forum name is "duckphup."  He's shown up on several fora.  He doesn't like me, so if you find him and mention me, he'll say something nasty. But you can get the story from him, if you can find him.

[Heisenberg]

I saw an episode of 'Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman' a few months back, which mentioned several experiments which have been conducted that could have potentially proved that the human brain can send and receive messages from other brains. I can't remember all the experiments as they mentioned quite a few, but one of them involved two people in completely dark rooms next to each other. Basically, both of their brains were hooked up to monitors and when the light was turned on in just one room, both of the people's brain activity spiked at the same time even though nothing had changed for one person. I don't immediately accept it, but I don't reject it either. The brain, after all, is nothing but a series of electrical impulses. Electrical currents produce magnetic fields, i believe it's not impossible that they could also produce some other type of field that other brains can receive.

In another interesting one, participants brain waves were measured while they were shown a series of images. Half of the images were supposed to elicit strong emotional responses (either good or bad) while half were of neutral images. They found that, not surprisingly, when they changed from one type of image to the other, the brain activity changed as soon as the picture did. The only exception came when the picture involved something sexual. In this case, their brain waves actually spiked a split second before the image came up! The experimenters believed this showed that we have actually evolved a sense of foresight when it comes to reproduction.

[MinnesotaMike]

Another question that I'm curious about:  Do you think that psychic abilities are necessarily supernatural?  Do you think a psychic connection or experience is possible within an atheistic worldview?

Please discuss!

I'll tackle this part. Psychic experiences (at least mine) can be explained as events predictable with some certainty. Every so often, I will have a dream about something insignificant that happens the following day or in the very near future. Nothing that will happen in the event is new information. For example, I can't possibly dream about the winning lottery numbers, but it isn't uncommon to know a rather mundane conversation from start to finish.

Two hypotheses:
1.) My brain randomly and subconsciously connects new information or intentions with solidified patterns in my life, then refines and visualizes a future event with a very high probability of occurring. Everyone's brain does the first part (you can predict behavior and "where this is going" with a fair amount of certainty), I just get HD video and some advance warning.

2.) My brain randomly and subconsciously connects new information or intentions with solidified patterns in my life, then forms/visualizes a scenario which turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. A lack of free will could explain how I've only avoided a few situations at the last minute, but it could also be the lack of knowing when the event will occur (and simply not being ready for it at every moment of the day).

I'm not qualified to speak about much psychic or neurological activity, but I can state that some premonitions are simply involuntary calculations on a large scale. As stated, they aren't particularly useful, and it's near impossible to tell when the event will occur.

[Pharaoh Cat]

I don't think there's anything more to this topic other than intuition in some cases, even if unconscious.

Yes, but what is intuition?

I don't posit a supernatural realm.  I figure all is nature and nature is all.  But what are the limits of nature?  Do we know them? 

See my next post, responding to something interesting someone shared.

[Pharaoh Cat]

Basically, both of their brains were hooked up to monitors and when the light was turned on in just one room, both of the people's brain activity spiked at the same time even though nothing had changed for one person. I don't immediately accept it, but I don't reject it either.

If it happened, it happened.  The question is, how?  By what mechanism?

By the way - great user name! 

The only exception came when the picture involved something sexual. In this case, their brain waves actually spiked a split second before the image came up! The experimenters believed this showed that we have actually evolved a sense of foresight when it comes to reproduction.

Very interesting! 

If and when we come to an understanding of the nature of consciousness, we'll better understand how time (in this instance) and space (in the prior one you cited) can sometimes pose less of a hindrance than we might otherwise expect.

None of this will be supernatural.  We will simply have learned something new about nature and the potency thereof.

[Heisenberg]

By the way - great user name! 

Thanks 

The only exception came when the picture involved something sexual. In this case, their brain waves actually spiked a split second before the image came up! The experimenters believed this showed that we have actually evolved a sense of foresight when it comes to reproduction.

Very interesting! 

If and when we come to an understanding of the nature of consciousness, we'll better understand how time (in this instance) and space (in the prior one you cited) can sometimes pose less of a hindrance than we might otherwise expect.

None of this will be supernatural.  We will simply have learned something new about nature and the potency thereof.

I agree that it is presumptuous to just assume that things we don't understand are supernatural. If you went back in time and proved quantum fluctuations to people a few hundred years back you would have been accused of witchcraft.

For anyone who's interested, here is a link to the episode I was referring to: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/through-the-wormhole-is-there-a-sixth-sense/.

[Good and Godless]

Great discussion so far.  I agree that we have yet to discover what our brains are truly capable of, and just because we don't understand it, we shouldn't call it supernatural (look where that's gotten us!).

I had this conversation with my husband and a couple of his points were:

1.  Everyone has a different reality based on their genetics and personal experiences.  We can't really know what this woman's reality is and why she came to the conclusions she did.  Her experiences are anecdotal, at best.  Exaggerations or fabrications, most likely.

2.  She might be a very anxious person who "predicts" people's death all the time and just happens to occasionally get it right. 

3.  Her brother's soul "living in her" was probably just her manifestation and interpretation of some intense grief.

I also just read an interesting piece about religious revelation and it argued that revelation is revelation to the person (such as Muhammad) who claims it ONLY.  To everyone else, it is simply hearsay and we have not obligation to accept it as revelation.

Anyway, thanks for all the thoughts.  Keep them coming!

[xSilverPhinx]

...he knew the precise moment when his father died unexpectedly...

Was he ill? I ask because I'm curious to know whether it was indeed very unexpected.

According to him, his father wasn't ill - totally unexpected. The atheist's forum name is "duckphup."  He's shown up on several fora.  He doesn't like me, so if you find him and mention me, he'll say something nasty. But you can get the story from him, if you can find him.

Yeah...that is odd. But I don't know, the problem with these sorts of anecdotal stories is that is isn't good evidence. People are selective about what they remember and how they remember it.  Could've been just a case of extreme bad luck, when he anxiously thought of his father dying and he did. The bad thing is that there isn't much to go on to get the bigger picture other than what he says...

I don't think there's anything more to this topic other than intuition in some cases, even if unconscious.

Yes, but what is intuition?

I don't posit a supernatural realm.  I figure all is nature and nature is all.  But what are the limits of nature?  Do we know them? 

If I would guess, it's the mechanism from which the brain unconsciously analyses stored brain information, hard-wired or learned, to construct a mental situation and act accordingly. I don't think there's anything supernatural about it, just based on what goes on unconsciously, with the result being conscious.

As for nature...I have no idea All those potential unknown unknowables out there...