Aren’t non-believers supposed to be suffering?

[Ecurb Noselrub]

There are variations in wisdom in a species even if there are some types of knowledge that might be out of our reach...

What do you mean by this?  I take it to mean that just because the human brain cannot fathom particular matters doesn't mean that those matters do not reflect reality. In other words, the sum total of all reality is not measured by what the human brain can comprehend.  Am I interpreting this correctly? 

[xSilverPhinx]

I mean to say that if there are unknowables out there, then it's pointless to speculate on what they are, especially if we don't even know that what unknowables are out there (that do reflect reality, but that's besides the point).

Unknowables for whatever reason, going from being beyond our human ability to comprehend to simply being out of reach for now, due to whatever limitations that can be eventually surpassed.

[Tank]

I mean to say that if there are unknowables out there, then it's pointless to speculate on what they are, especially if we don't even know that what unknowables are out there (that do reflect reality, but that's besides the point).

Unknowables for whatever reason, going from being beyond our human ability to comprehend to simply being out of reach for now, due to whatever limitations that can be eventually surpassed.

The trouble with the 'unknowable' issue is that IMO humans can't cope with not knowing, we are infinitely curious and even when faced with the 'unknowable' we have to have an answer, hence superstition.

I don't think it is unexpected that people speculate about the unknowable it's part of our nature. The issue is that some people believe the speculations and then act on those beliefs despite all reasonable/rational arguments.

Whether there are 'unknowables' or not I think it's endemic in human nature that we will always try to know the unknowable, that is after all the basis of science aka Institutionalised Curiosity.

[Heisenberg]

I actually find the belief in god to rationalize the questions we can't answer to be pretty arrogant. It's like they're saying 'I can't figure this out, and since I'm so smart the only explanation is that god did it.' People think they're 'humbling' themselves before god, but I couldn't disagree more.

These are the same people who claim that our complex bodies couldn't have evolved into what they are and that there's no life elsewhere in the universe. I find humility in admitting that our existence is nothing more than a cosmic 'accident' (except for the evolution part which seems to be inevitable given the right conditions). We exist because our planet is the right size, the right distance from our star which is also the right size, and covered with water. An asteroid could wipe us out tomorrow and it would be as though we never existed. We are absolutely not special in any way shape or form except that we happened to be born into the species at the top of the totem pole. You could just as easily have been born a dung beetle.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I actually find the belief in god to rationalize the questions we can't answer to be pretty arrogant. It's like they're saying 'I can't figure this out, and since I'm so smart the only explanation is that god did it.' People think they're 'humbling' themselves before god, but I couldn't disagree more.

These are the same people who claim that our complex bodies couldn't have evolved into what they are and that there's no life elsewhere in the universe. I find humility in admitting that our existence is nothing more than a cosmic 'accident' (except for the evolution part which seems to be inevitable given the right conditions). We exist because our planet is the right size, the right distance from our star which is also the right size, and covered with water. An asteroid could wipe us out tomorrow and it would be as though we never existed. We are absolutely not special in any way shape or form except that we happened to be born into the species at the top of the totem pole. You could just as easily have been born a dung beetle.

As someone who believes in God but also accepts evolution and the possibility of extraterrestrial life, I don't seen anything arrogant about faith.  If you don't have it, fine.  But if someone's personal experience leads them to believe, I don't see what is arrogant about that. 

[Tank]

I actually find the belief in god to rationalize the questions we can't answer to be pretty arrogant. It's like they're saying 'I can't figure this out, and since I'm so smart the only explanation is that god did it.' People think they're 'humbling' themselves before god, but I couldn't disagree more.

These are the same people who claim that our complex bodies couldn't have evolved into what they are and that there's no life elsewhere in the universe. I find humility in admitting that our existence is nothing more than a cosmic 'accident' (except for the evolution part which seems to be inevitable given the right conditions). We exist because our planet is the right size, the right distance from our star which is also the right size, and covered with water. An asteroid could wipe us out tomorrow and it would be as though we never existed. We are absolutely not special in any way shape or form except that we happened to be born into the species at the top of the totem pole. You could just as easily have been born a dung beetle.

If it was not for the human ability in the past to fill in the gaps in our knowledge with superstition I seriously think that there would be no humans now. I explain my ideas in this thread 'Why God

[The Magic Pudding]

If it was not for the human ability in the past to fill in the gaps in our knowledge with superstition I seriously think that there would be no humans now. I explain my ideas in this thread 'Why God

Yes a good link.

We've had the view expressed today that humans should see life as a bit of shit and give up.  I don't think it's a thing many other animals consider, but for humans religion probably helped them choose to live in bleak times past.

[xSilverPhinx]

I mean to say that if there are unknowables out there, then it's pointless to speculate on what they are, especially if we don't even know that what unknowables are out there (that do reflect reality, but that's besides the point).

Unknowables for whatever reason, going from being beyond our human ability to comprehend to simply being out of reach for now, due to whatever limitations that can be eventually surpassed.

The trouble with the 'unknowable' issue is that IMO humans can't cope with not knowing, we are infinitely curious and even when faced with the 'unknowable' we have to have an answer, hence superstition.

I don't think it is unexpected that people speculate about the unknowable it's part of our nature. The issue is that some people believe the speculations and then act on those beliefs despite all reasonable/rational arguments.

Whether there are 'unknowables' or not I think it's endemic in human nature that we will always try to know the unknowable, that is after all the basis of science aka Institutionalised Curiosity.

Let me rephrase what I mean by 'unknowable' in this context. Liken it to what's beyond the observable universe...that would be unknowable to us, unless there is a way to gain observable information that is not limited by the speed of light. I never meant it in a way that we shouldn't keep trying to figure out how the universe works

You could say that quantum mechanics are unknowable to dogs. We know that it exists, it's demonstrable, it's scientific but even though dogs live in the same objective realty as us, they will never have that concept or the means to know anything about quantum mechanics. They don't even know that there is such a thing called quantum mechanics that is unknowable to them... We know that we can't observe what's beyond the observable universe, at least for now, but what about all our unknowable unknowables?

I meant it more in this context, and not like when the religious say things like "lean not on your own understanding (but on the understanding of a self proclaimed authority...)"

[Heisenberg]

But if someone's personal experience leads them to believe, I don't see what is arrogant about that. 

So why you? Why is god allowed to show his presence to you and not everyone? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to show the non-believers that he exists than the believers?

And why is it that so many people who claim to experience god say it happened at a low point in their life or while they were on drugs? By believing in god based on personal experience, you're basically saying you deserved his presence more than everyone else.

[Heisenberg]

If it was not for the human ability in the past to fill in the gaps in our knowledge with superstition I seriously think that there would be no humans now. I explain my ideas in this thread 'Why God

I couldn't help but notice you italicized 'in the past', and that may well have been true in the past. But it sure isn't true now, yet people still do it.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

But if someone's personal experience leads them to believe, I don't see what is arrogant about that. 

So why you? Why is god allowed to show his presence to you and not everyone? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to show the non-believers that he exists than the believers?

And why is it that so many people who claim to experience god say it happened at a low point in their life or while they were on drugs? By believing in god based on personal experience, you're basically saying you deserved his presence more than everyone else.

I disagree.  I'm certainly not the only person who has ever had a personal experience. Furthermore, it may be that everyone has the experience of God at some point, either now or even after death.  The timing is not all that important.  Neither are the attending circumstances (drugs, low point in life, etc.) all that significant.  Many have had religious experiences in the absence of these circumstances.  Time and circumstance may not be all that significant to God.  He simply reveals himself as he pleases for his purposes.  I am definitely not saying I deserved anything more than anyone else - I'm simply reporting my own personal experience.  You may have a similar experience tomorrow.

[Heisenberg]

I'm not saying you're actually saying that you're better than those who haven't 'experienced god' or even that you actually believe it. I just think that its an implication of believing that god speaks to you.

If I heard voices in my head, I wouldn't think it was god, I would check myself into a fuckin hospital. Know why? Because why me...

[Ecurb Noselrub]

If I heard voices in my head, I wouldn't think it was god, I would check myself into a fuckin hospital. Know why? Because why me...

That might be a reasonable choice if you were hearing actual voices. But religious experiences don't have to involve that - for me it's more of a sense of a presence.  Since you brought up Star Wars in another thread, it's a little like Darth Vader saying "I sense a presence" when Obi-Wan was near (bad analogy, I know).  Religious faith is not considered a mental illness in the DSM, so if you came to the hospital and said that you had had a religious experience, they wouldn't admit you.  They would consider you to be normal.

[Tank]

If it was not for the human ability in the past to fill in the gaps in our knowledge with superstition I seriously think that there would be no humans now. I explain my ideas in this thread 'Why God

I couldn't help but notice you italicized 'in the past', and that may well have been true in the past. But it sure isn't true now, yet people still do it.

We shouldn't rely on institutionalised superstition anymore. Humanity has to grow up and realise there is no plan, the only purpose in life is down to the person living the life, there is no Sky Daddy waiting to pick up the pieces and when you die that's it; game over. Only when all humans appreciate these facts will humanity stand a chance of realising its destiny, whatever that may be.

[Tank]

But if someone's personal experience leads them to believe, I don't see what is arrogant about that. 

So why you? Why is god allowed to show his presence to you and not everyone? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to show the non-believers that he exists than the believers?

And why is it that so many people who claim to experience god say it happened at a low point in their life or while they were on drugs? By believing in god based on personal experience, you're basically saying you deserved his presence more than everyone else.

I disagree.  I'm certainly not the only person who has ever had a personal experience. Furthermore, it may be that everyone has the experience of God at some point, either now or even after death.  The timing is not all that important.  Neither are the attending circumstances (drugs, low point in life, etc.) all that significant.  Many have had religious experiences in the absence of these circumstances.  Time and circumstance may not be all that significant to God.  He simply reveals himself as he pleases for his purposes.  I am definitely not saying I deserved anything more than anyone else - I'm simply reporting my own personal experience.  You may have a similar experience tomorrow.

What an amazing piece of pointless gobbledygook. Given that you admit that your epiphany occurred on the day you took LSD your 'evidence' via experience is totally incredible. You are simply not a reliable or credible witness. All the above simple creates a safe place for you to believe exactly what you want to believe irrespective of reality.