Infuriating Argument

[Bella]

So, a random reglious person posted a rude and ignorant comment on God and the Bible on my myspace page (where I clearly state that I am an atheist)... It basically said that she feels bad for my mother, the Bible is "obviously" true, prophecies are being fulfilled, and the head of every woman is a man... and that I should be grateful. My friends and I had a wonderful time flame-spraying her... "Babbling on about prophecies being fulfilled makes you sould like an ignorant, uneducated, medieval peasant." Is probably the best quote I've seen in a long time.  

But yea, bringing my mom into it REALLY pissed me off.   So, in response to me telling her to go to college and learn to think for herself (basically), I get this:

Yeah, I've heard that before from people like you. I worked with one of you for four years. There are plenty of people in the truth who have gone to college and have a high education. But they are also intelligent enough to realize that there is no way this world and everything in it was an accident.

It seems less intelligent for somebody to say that all of a sudden out of nowhere beings exist who can reproduce perfectly and everything in nature works perfectly together, without a designer, without any sort of intelligence. Yeah that makes sense.

Your thinking comes from not wanting to give in to authority. I don't understand why you think that the truth is a burden. I was raised in the truth and never felt that way. Nobody forced me to do anything or think any way. After reseach, I found for myself what is true. It's logical, everything fits together perfectly and there's overwhelming evidence that it is true.

I think for myself more than you do - you have let "modern day society" mold your thinking. I value "thinking for yourself" and doing your own research one of the privledges of searching out and finding the truth. This is about having a love for Jehovah, not an organization. Nobody is telling me what to do. I do what I want, I have the choice, and I love Jehovah.

One more thing. It sickens me that there are people who are still proud to be part of a society that is getting worse and worse (especially somebody who was raised in the truth). Isn't it obvious that your "thinking" has destroyed society? As long as people trust themselves, not Jehovah, modern day society will continue to get worse. That is what Jehovah said he will prove - that society cannot get better without His help. Maybe if you studied the Bible as much as you went to college, you would realize this.

I know, I am wasting my time. I know exactly what you are going to say, but I have a personality that cannot tolerate people who say things that are unjust. I'm an easy going person, but if something is not right, I cannot keep quiet. Especially if it has to do with Jehovah. But, I'm done now.

I have made my point and you will know that it's the truth some day. Until then, believe what you believe. You have made your choice and that's all you can do.

There is just so much crazy "logic" there, that I didn't know where to begin. It seems like you WOULD say, "I did this and this research and this is what I have concluded" instead of words like "obviously" and stating that there is evidence... but not what that evidence IS! ARGH! Oh, and can I just say one more thing about religion and society? The Dark Ages. There, I'm done.

[MikeyV]

This part is rich:

beings exist who can reproduce perfectly and everything in nature works perfectly together

She's obviously never heard of Down Syndrome, encephalitis, autism, malformed limbs, ambiguous genetailia, earthquakes, floods, mudslides, and a host of other ills that are not so "perfect"

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

[Mister Joy]

Yes. Someone should really give it to her straight: get thee to a nunnery!

Can I see this crazy bint's myspace please? I only hope it's as packed with vitamins of fun as the gobbledegook she's been regurgitating at you, and I do so crave a bit of entertainment at the moment.

[rlrose328]

This part is rich:

beings exist who can reproduce perfectly and everything in nature works perfectly together

She's obviously never heard of Down Syndrome, encephalitis, autism, malformed limbs, ambiguous genetailia, earthquakes, floods, mudslides, and a host of other ills that are not so "perfect"

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

That was the same thing I thought as well... humans don't reproduce perfectly.  Far from it.  Same with animals... and they EAT the ones that don't come out right.  

That woman is as crazy as they come.  She is brainwashed, ignorant and prideful... that's what I got from her post... "I'm right, you're wrong and I can't believe you don't see that you're wrong."  Isn't pride one of the seven deadly sins?

Ugh.  :roll:

[Will]

Wow, what an illogical idiot. I'm reminded of a quote from Billy Madison:
what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[Whitney]

That is what happen when people choose to look at the world through Jesus colored glasses rather than for what it really is.

[Bella]

Can I see this crazy bint's myspace please? I only hope it's as packed with vitamins of fun as the gobbledegook she's been regurgitating at you, and I do so crave a bit of entertainment at the moment.

This is her myspace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... d=45619091 ( didn't find anything particularly crazy on there, though)

and here is her recent email (I get no peace... I should stop responding, but I can't!):

Good. I'm glad you made peace with your mother. It's crazy that you say there is no proof, when the proof was right in front of you your whole life. Prophecies fulfilled proving the Bible is true, scriptures being consistant throughout the Bible even though it was written by many different people who lived during different times, with different experiences and different backgrounds (which would have been completely impossible if it was not inspired by God), things happening right now that were also prophecied in the Bible. Decline in society, decline of false religion, things getting worse and worse, even people like you - you are proof. I did not say what the proof is before because I did not think you wanted a very long message and because I don't think you even care what the proof is, but if you really want me to provide you with more proof I can.

So, things like downs syndrome, etc... that is the result of this worlds imperfection. We are further away from perfection than ever before. Obviously we were not created that way. The Bible fortold that these things would happen, the world would get worse before it gets better. My point was that lifes cycles in general all work together, there are niches sometimes because of imperfection, but the sun continues to come up in the morning, doesn't it? Why? It is perfectly placed to sustain life.

I have obviously studied history. I know what FALSE religion has put society through, make no mistake about that. I think it is poison and will experience a downfall soon. True religion has not ruined our society, but has tried to make it better.

I have no idea where she got the idea that I needed to make peace with my mother! I guess she just assumed that since I don't believe in God?? Geez! Anyways, my response was:

How very, very convenient. LOL! So the world is perfect because God made it... only that it's not because of Satan. If your religion held real proof, you would be in a much different place. However, trying to draw parallels between current events and the Bible prooves absolutely nothing.

I am proof of nothing. I follow the laws, I pay my taxes, and I care about the well-being of other people. I'm doing absolutely nothing wrong and I still don't believe in God. Like my blog said, you can be an atheist and still be a good person.

You have not been around long enough to state ANY sort of decline in society. In my opinion, humans will destroy this earth LONG before total havoc breaks out a la Lord of the Flies, haha!

There is no reason that a woman should not be able to carry the microphones or give speaches. None. I questioned it for years. I held private conversations with elders about it. They quoted out-dated sexist scriptures as if I were supposed to go, "Oh, it all makes sense now!". They acted as if my questions were a bad thing. That's because the goal of religion is to control you and keep you for thinking for yourself. Doubts and questions (you know... using your BRAIN) are frowned upon. For example, take my blog. I said that *I* do not believe in God, but people can believe what they want as long as they don't shove it down your throat. You got all upset about that and I didn't even say anything mean.

Oh, and since my mother and I were never feuding, it was never about making "peace" so much as her finally accepting and respecting me. I was never out to hurt her (if I had really wanted to rebel, all I would have had to do was tell an elder that I didn't believe and get kicked out) and I never told her that she was full of shit... although I wanted to.

Ah, yes... and there you go using that word "obviously" again with absolutely nothing to back it up.

Okay, maybe it's because it's been a few years and I forgot how they rationalized all of that... but did anyone just get completely lost??

[Bella]

Oh, and if someone could give me a stellar argument against the whole, "The Bible is true because it was written by many people over different times and it agrees with itself" thing, that would be wonderful.. I'm sick of hearing that one and "Do you have any idea how many times the Bible has been translated!?" seems to have no effect.

[LSchune]

Talk about a nut fuck.  You have my sympathy.

[Whitney]

if it makes you feel better...one of the girls where i work is pretty big on chrsitianity and was blabbing on today to another coworker about how lee strobel is going to be a guest speaker at her church.  She was like...he use to be an atheist and then he realized he was wrong when he researched the "journalistic" truth of the bible.

Anyway...I'm glad she didn't decide to bring that up around me.  I plan to keep work and religion separate.

[rlrose328]

That is what happen when people choose to look at the world through Jesus colored glasses rather than for what it really is.

Oh, I LOVE that!!!  Did you just make that up?  I'd love that on a tshirt somehow!

[Whitney]

rlrose....i did make it up but I'm pretty sure I got the "jesus colored glasses" bit from someone else.  It is rather funny though.

[Steve Reason]

I feel your pain my dear. I had a "discussion" with a fundie that made an ignorant comment on one of my Myspace friends blog, in which he pretty much ignored everything I said, and just kept making declarations about atheists and gays (apparently being atheist somehow makes one gay) and saying incredibly stupid things. He even went as far as quoting a Muslim author (that in the same book attacks Christianity and Judaism) that uses a fundie creationist (Gish, or one of those guys), to make idiotic claims about evolution.

I wrote him back that I was going to give him a do over on that one, because I was trying to be fair before I demolished his post. And he responded by deleting my post. We went through a couple of more cycles before I gave up. When someone ignores what you say and declares that their mind won't be changed, what's the point?

This guy was one of those vacuous hit and run types that can't back up their attacks, so they just make declarations. And he's also a copy and paste genius as well, because he's too stupid to argue for himself. Like your lady, Bella, he assumed an awful lot and asked the dumbest questions, and no doubt thought that he was using unassailable logic.

If I were you, I'd just tell her to go away and take her hateful insanity with her. You just can't use logic on such people. She could probably convince herself that the bible was true because '68 Oldsmobile's ran V8 engines. Hell, aliens could land and show us how they created the earth and wrote the bible for fun, and she'd still declare that it was all part of God's plan. Some people are beyond help.

[MikeyV]

Typical response. Blame humanity for deformed children. Fundies disgust me.

She only believes the Buybull to be consistent because she's never read it.

It can't even get simple things right. Trying to cut/copy/paste prophecies on Jesus, that weren't even about some far distant messiah. Confusing virgin (betulah) for young maiden (almah).

Just the absolute absurdity of Genesis and the fall from grace. How can you commit sin if you don't have any knowledge of sin until you eat the fruit that let's you know that you just sinned?

The believer will say that they had freewill, and their sin was disobeying god. But, Adam and Eve were created imperfect, they had no clue what sin was. That knowledge was wrapped up in a fruit.

Once you see Genesis for what it is (a not very good creation story[stories]), the rest of the book sorta falls apart.

But I'd advise against arguing with deeply entrenched fundies. It would be less painfull to repeatedly smash your head against a brick wall. You know what Mark Twain said, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig." Fundies are swine.

[Steve Reason]

But I'd advise against arguing with deeply entrenched fundies. It would be less painfull to repeatedly smash your head against a brick wall. You know what Mark Twain said, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig." Fundies are swine.

Oh man that's funny!