Re: Can culture/ideology turn a good person bad or visa versa?

[Tank]

Can culture/ideology turn a good person bad or visa versa?

It has been said that a bad ideology can make a good person do bad things. Could it also be the case that a good ideology could make a bad person do good things?

I have knocked up this little graphic to aid the discussion.

The vertical axis deals with the individual.
The horizontal axis deals with the culture/ideology in which the individual lives.
The two curves represent the proportion of the people/cultures that exist at a given point on the continuum between good<>bad.
Thus the majority of people are morally neutral and the majority of cultures are morally neutral (this assumption is itself debatable).

So a very good person that lives in a very good culture/ideology falls into the bottom left Good/Good (GG) category, while a very bad person that lives in a very bad culture/ideology falls into the top right Bad/Bad (BB) category.

So can a person who is essentially bad but lives in an essentially good culture be influenced to behave in a good way, or equally can an essentially good person that lives in a bad society be influenced to behave in a bad way?

Is there an intrinsic moral compass in an individual or is that compass built by the culture/ideology in which the person grows up?

[Sweetdeath]

This is interesting, as over the last six or seven years, i've come to realize that life isn't fair, there is no real justice, etc.

We all -- reguardless of age -- have had crummy past experiences, especially when you're a teen and can't grasp much. None the less, we are shaped in many ways BY those who surround us.
When I was a child, like seven in grade school, I used to love stealing toys, pens, whatever tiny thing in class I could stuff in my pants. Now, being that young I had no one to teach me why stealing was bad.  ((My parents were aweful parents. Seriously.))
One day, I stole a tiny sock puppet and my teacher caught me. I had no idea what was going to happen, but I remember feeling very guilty. She just sat me aside and explained to me WHY stealing was wrong. I never thought about how i'd feel if someone stole from me until after that day.

I really love that I had to go through that to learn . Sorry for the rant...

I guess what i'm trying to say is: sometimes we have to get caught to know what's bad. Though quite honestly, good parenting goes a really long way. Even if a kid or teen is in a bad situation, if they are taught right, they know to say no, walk away, ect.

I'm proud to never tried alcohol til I was 22. Also, I hate it, so I don't drink. I never smoked either.  We are influenced all around, but something deep inside usually says "hey, this is bad...  I shouldn't be doing this..."

[The Magic Pudding]

I don't think there's much doubt a "good" culture would lessen the occurrence of bad acts.

I'll loosely define my subjective good as wishing people well, doing well by people and other life if you can reasonably do so.  I'm not really interested in weird cultural interpretations that think female circumcision is good.

There's probably not much doubt a good culture/upbringing will help a person think good thoughts, bad experiences can give birth to monsters.

You could have two people living separately on each side of an island , the same environment for both and no interaction with other people.  I think there would be some hereditary difference, one may be more likely to perform a benevolent act with no perceived self interest.  Freeing a bird from fishing line, turning an upturned beetle right way up.  I think their would be hereditary influences on empathy, much good flows from empathy.

[Rizuidad]

I think it may be more appropriate to say that any change in ideology will produce a significant change in the behavior of an individual, good or bad. Most individuals are raised within a culture, and that cultural environment has a large effect on their behavior. However, it is easy to forget that even within a cultural environment, there are many thousands of mitigating circumstances that modify behavior and effect that particular individual.

It would be a mistake to think of any culture as a homogenous thing, and even within one particular culture, there are many variations and changes happening as one speaks. As far as behavior is concerned, towards good or bad, there is probably some inherent structures of humanity, and some environmental factors as well.

[Medusa]

My thoughts are about which came first. Who exactly makes up the 'good culture' other than the good people? It can be a vicious circle or a harmonious one I guess.

[Rizuidad]

I'm pretty sure that cultures evolve independently of what's "good" or "bad".

If you're talking about customs, it can be something as simple as daily superstition and religion that shapes cultural beliefs. If your talking about fundamental principles about what's evil and good, I've never seen a culture that deviated from the standard ones and didn't self destruct. It's human nature, most likely.

[Tom62]

Just what is "good" and what is "bad"? Why would a western culture be any better (or worse) than, for example, an African or Asian culture? I think that most people consider the culture that they grew up in is the best.  Personally, I think that all cultures have some bad and good characteristics.

[Tank]

Thank you for the thoughtful replies.

I knew the 'what is good and bad' comment would come up as they are subjective and mutable as humanity's social conscience evolves. But putting that massive issue to one side for a moment it would appear that people are generally a product of the society they grow up in. If this is so there is no personal moral compass, just that which is built into us during our childhood?

[fester30]

I think there's an argument that as much influence as nature and nurture have on an individual, sometimes shit happens despite nature and nurture.  Sociopaths and psychopaths happen in good societies.  Are these bad people?  They don't necessarily think so.  Their view of good/bad is skewed to their own emotional deficiencies.  These sorts of things happen in the animal kingdom as well.  My experience that taught me that homosexuality was both normal and morally acceptable was watching the animal channel.  There was a program on elephants.  There was one young bull elephant that seemed to have a psychological disorder.  He displayed odd behavior that was at times even dangerous to the herd, and did not display the ability to learn from the discipline of the herd.  He was kicked out of the herd.  As an adult, he tried mounting females AND males from herds he happened upon, and killed a couple elephants in what the show's narrator called cold blood.  This taught me that animals have many of the same mental illnesses humans have.

Now before anybody gets mad, I'm not saying homosexuality is a mental illness... it isn't.  The American Psychological Association is VERY clear on this.  My degree is in social psychology, and I definitely agree with the APA.  What I'm saying is that when I saw animals have mental illnesses, it made me wonder what else animals and humans have in common that would surprise me.  Suicide, homosexuality, and recreational sex also surprised me.  When I saw that homosexuality exists in the animal kingdom, and that the other animals don't rebel against and kill the homosexual animals, I realized that the human species is really the only one that considers homosexuality abnormal. 

Anyway, tangents aside, I don't think there's any rule about nature vs. nurture that you also can't find many exceptions to.

[The Magic Pudding]

An innate ability to get on with others should be of benefit to a species so natural selection should favour it.  Not everyone would inherit the same level of sociability.  Benoboes are nicer people than chimps, some dog breeds are supposed to have more agreeable temperaments.

Why wouldn't a person be born with a higher or lower propensity for benevolent socialisation?  I wouldn't describe this as a moral compass.

[penfold]

Can culture/ideology turn a good person bad or visa versa?

Absolutely yes. The behaviour of groups has profound effect on individuals. We even have experimental evidence for this in the Stanford prison experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment).

We can also find countless instances in history where group adoption of ideologies has lead to aberrant behaviour. From genocide in Rwanda (even though the Hutu/Tootsie distinction was a bogus colonial myth) to the eerily cheerful 'exit videos' filmed by Heaven's Gate cultists prior to their suicides.

The fact is there is something deep in our natures that leads to conformity. If society does ill then odds are we will do ill as members of that society.

I am sure that most people reading this will instinctively disagree and feel that they are 'independent' and do hold views different from those around them; that they would stand up against bad ideologies. However the norm is conformity. We are not the individual moral agents we like to suppose.

[Tank]

Please note the derail regarding homosexuality has been removed and merged into this thread A discussion on homosexuality

[Tank]

Can culture/ideology turn a good person bad or visa versa?

Absolutely yes. The behaviour of groups has profound effect on individuals. We even have experimental evidence for this in the Stanford prison experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment).

We can also find countless instances in history where group adoption of ideologies has lead to aberrant behaviour. From genocide in Rwanda (even though the Hutu/Tootsie distinction was a bogus colonial myth) to the eerily cheerful 'exit videos' filmed by Heaven's Gate cultists prior to their suicides.

The fact is there is something deep in our natures that leads to conformity. If society does ill then odds are we will do ill as members of that society.

I am sure that most people reading this will instinctively disagree and feel that they are 'independent' and do hold views different from those around them; that they would stand up against bad ideologies. However the norm is conformity. We are not the individual moral agents we like to suppose.

Then what about the influences of a good culture? Are they as strong or do 'bad' people behave badly irrespective of the society they grow up in?

[penfold]

Then what about the influences of a good culture? Are they as strong or do 'bad' people behave badly irrespective of the society they grow up in?

Well I slightly object to the notion of 'good' and 'bad' people and 'good' or 'bad' cultures. Obviously there are personality traits which are inherently dangerous, the most extreme example being psychopathy, and we might reasonably call such people 'bad'. However these rare antisocial personalities aside, most people are pretty morally neutral. I prefer to talk of actions, rather than people or cultures, as being good or bad.

I think what is meant by a 'good culture' would be a culture where the citizenry tend to behave well. One interesting example is re-offending rates. People placed in the brutalising prison system are more likely to re-offend than those who are punished within the community (at least this is so in the uk: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/04/jail-less-effective-community-service). So we might want to say that prison is a 'bad culture' because it engenders bad behaviour.

In that sense I think the question you've asked is backward. We should look at the behaviour of people within a culture to determine if a culture is 'good' or 'bad' (rather than talking of 'good' or 'bad' cultures as having an effect upon behaviour).

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That is not to say the effect of the group on the individual isn't great, merely that the culture itself is not determining as to the morality of the situation. Morality, at least to my mind, is a function of behaviour, not beliefs.

[The Magic Pudding]

Someone with ADD may behave in a way that is considered bad, or at least annoying in our society.
In times past they may have been very useful, being ever vigilant, handy with a club and making leopards think twice before bothering their tribe.
A future society may do a better job of fitting them in through better drugs or some kind of enlightened embrace of their nature.

If I've made an ignorant reference to ADD that offends anyone please feel free to correct me.