Walter Block on Sexual Discrimination & the Pay Gap

[ThinkAnarchy]

I hope I posted this in the right forum. I was trying to narrow it down between this one, politics, and social issues. Hopefully I chose well, if not I apologize.

I was communicating with another member and it made me think about starting this thread. I'm really curious about her view on this as well as the rest of the community. There are 5 parts to the lecture and I will have to re-watch it as well in order to contribute to this thread.


1st part
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAzkQWgIEbU

2nd part
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpkXEfuuylY

3rd part
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqybaseue5Q

4th part
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2KBhvdvhtg

5th part
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJwp6SKxthc

Edit: The link to the full video doesn't seem to be working anymore, but this was all of the pay gap part of the lecture. I would also like to add that women tend to take more time off for pregnancies. I also know several women who have disagreed with his assertions despite calling out of work because of their periods.

[Sweetdeath]

Super interesting!
First of all, I want to thank you, because I am always excited to learn and expand my views. This person was super brass, and I applaud him for that.

Everything he said about our society and biology makes a lot sense. I didn't like being compared to a cow, but I agreed with his stand point.
Now, the whole pay gap is something I definitely was interested in, seeing as how I am in a relationship with a woman, obviously having to pay for my own means. I did take in acount children and marriage. I don't want to get married, and the thoyght of having children makes me ill. No offense to anyone who has children. They are just not for me or my girlfriend.

I sadly do think the pay gap dors have to do with us unable to break free from "traditional gender roles."  A woman is expected to take care of her kids, not work, where as a man can work and not be judged. There was a study about women becoming riddled with guilt as a working mom versus a man who has children. Now, I personally have a closer relationship to my father, but I do feel as if he kinda sat around more when I was a kid, versus was mom who was a flight attendant, but still came home to make dinner. My dad cooked too, but he just kinda sucked at it. I don't kniw... It's sad to me, because while I do know we aren't equal biologically, we should be respecting each other more. I don't believe men is better than women or vice versa.

I also want to say we are getting better over the decades, but even with biology, we could do more. I get sad when some women do ruin it for all. Like how they were trying to pass a law that would make "pregnant parking" availible for women who shop and want to park closer to the supermarket entrance.

Ok, yeah, i'm sure pregnancy sucks, but asking for that just shoves us further back as second class citizens.

I am looking forward to more replies in this thread.

Thanks   for being cool, Anarchy. <3

[ThinkAnarchy]

Super interesting!
First of all, I want to thank you, because I am always excited to learn and expand my views. This person was super brass, and I applaud him for that.

He actually had to go on leave after this lecture because the outrage was so great on the campus he teaches economics at. I think he took about a year off while things cooled down.

Everything he said about our society and biology makes a lot sense. I didn't like being compared to a cow, but I agreed with his stand point.

Yes there were certainly a few things he could have phrased a bit better.  

Now, the whole pay gap is something I definitely was interested in, seeing as how I am in a relationship with a woman, obviously having to pay for my own means. I did take in acount children and marriage. I don't want to get married, and the thoyght of having children makes me ill. No offense to anyone who has children. They are just not for me or my girlfriend.

The thought disgusts my girlfriend as well. If we decide to have children we will probably adopt or find another woman I can implant my seed in. Unfortunately she would only let me do it the lab route as opposed to the traditional way.

I sadly do think the pay gap dors have to do with us unable to break free from "traditional gender roles."  A woman is expected to take care of her kids, not work, where as a man can work and not be judged. There was a study about women becoming riddled with guilt as a working mom versus a man who has children. Now, I personally have a closer relationship to my father, but I do feel as if he kinda sat around more when I was a kid, versus was mom who was a flight attendant, but still came home to make dinner. My dad cooked too, but he just kinda sucked at it. I don't kniw... It's sad to me, because while I do know we aren't equal biologically, we should be respecting each other more. I don't believe men is better than women or vice versa.

It's all economics. I don't think it's an issue of respect. I agree it would be nice, but in order to have true equality, the genders would have to be equal, which nature has made sure we are not. We are equal in our rights, but not our abilities (generally speaking.) Men tend to be better at certain things and women tend to to better in other areas. Sure there are exceptions, I for instance am going into a female dominated employment field. My girlfriend does more work around the house than I do, it isn't a matter of respect, it's just the way our house functions. On major cleaning day's we do an equal amount of work, but over all I only do about 20% of it.

I also want to say we are getting better over the decades, but even with biology, we could do more. I get sad when some women do ruin it for all. Like how they were trying to pass a law that would make "pregnant parking" availible for women who shop and want to park closer to the supermarket entrance.

I personally don't agree with law requiring handicap parking, but that goes back to my Anarcho-Capitalist view point. Wal-greens for example has "Expected Mother's" parking without there being a law. I assume it is good for business. I usually park in handicap spaces however when there are multiple open. Half the time the establishments are required to designate more parking spots than are in demand. That is a bit off the point, but yes I agree, many pro-women movements tend to set women back.

Ok, yeah, i'm sure pregnancy sucks, but asking for that just shoves us further back as second class citizens.

The feminist movement has, for example, led to a less chivalrous society. Men don't hold doors open for women as often, and hardly ever pull out a chair for them. Many things that I view as polite, like placing your hand on a woman's back your familiar with as you let her walk in front of you is now deemed as sexual harassment.

I am looking forward to more replies in this thread.

Thanks   for being cool, Anarchy. <3

I'm am looking forward to more views on this as well. I would also like to extend the compliment back in your direction.

EDIT: I would like to clarify. Men and women are intellectually equal, but we are not physically equal.

[Sweetdeath]

Aw, wow, a year? I don't think his lecture was that outrageous. X__x

I understand about handicap parking, but pregnant parking is a ridiculous thing to ask for. It's like, don't bitch about equality, but then demand goodies on the side. Pregnancy lasts nine months; deal with it.

I remember coming home late from work, exhausted. I got a seat on the crowded train. Two stops later, ththis pregnany woman gets on and totally gives me the stink eye for not giving up my seat. I was like "wtf, I didn't knock you up, bitch."

She was all like "the nerve of young people." ( I was 18 at the time.)

Aw, well, I believe in being nice in general, but I dislike chivalry. Maybe also cuz i'm used to doing everything myself, but I don't like being treated like a delicate flower.

[ThinkAnarchy]

Each person is different. I know some woman who complain they aren't treated like flowers anymore. I also know many who are like you and don't appreciate that stuff.

And yes, he went on sabbatical for about a year because of the student body protesting and calling him a sexist and racist.

[Sweetdeath]

The problem is, in the media, and just in general, women are bunched together in one mind set.
You're right, some women are fine with chivalry, like my girlfriend. She is my princess, and I love her very much for it. At the same time, just because a woman is femmenine, doesn't mean she's fragile.  I'm a lot tougher, stronger and tomboyish than my girlfriend, but I cry more over little things (like old people getting hurt. I love old people ;; )

She's smarter than me, and more rational. I don't look before I leap xD

I think that no one should be judged on their gender. I know not all guys like sports. Same with not all women like shiny diamonds. I think its best to get to know someone, see what they're comfortable with/not comfortable with.

Not all women like ballet or the opera. Not all men who like it are gay. I mean the list goes on.

I also like your statement, because yes, we are different bioligically but that's all~

[The Black Jester]

I agree it would be nice, but in order to have true equality, the genders would have to be equal, which nature has made sure we are not. We are equal in our rights, but not our abilities (generally speaking.) Men tend to be better at certain things and women tend to to better in other areas.

There are studies that seem to establish fairly conclusively that environments in which sexual stereotypes persist do foster differences in performance.  A particular study I read, I will post a link if I can find it again, specifically related to the 'women-suck-at-math' stereotype.  In an experimental environment in which this stereotype was reinforced, even the women who claimed NOT to buy into the stereotype performed WORSE than women in the control group in which the stereotype was denied and women were expected to perform as well as their male counterparts.  Stereotypes effect performance, regardless of whether or not you even believe the stereotype, is the upshot.  This makes trying to establish the real differences between men and women much more difficult than would even appear at first.

Also, there is definite sexual dimorphism in the brain - which should, if the brain is the source of the mind, lead to differences in consciousness quantitatively or qualitatively.  Not sure what those specific differences amount to, however, or whether they are truly significant.

[ThinkAnarchy]

I'm curious about that study. If you happen to stumble across the link, please post it. If not, I will see if I can find it on google in the next few days.

[Sweetdeath]

I would like to see that study as well, because I have met both genders that are equally as sucky at math as I am. Though, in all seriousness, I see no biological reason based on gender for that.

I have heard though that artistic and creative people do tend to be unable to see mathematical solutions in their brain.  This was based on a brain study, not gender.

[fester30]

Here is an article from Time magazine about it.  There was a study at Johns Hopkins over 30 years ago that showed males performed better on math tests than females.  A more recent University of Chicago study shows that, while there may be a performance gap in standardized tests, there is not an ability gap.  The U of C study suggests that if you teach the students together, you'll get the same results regardless of gender.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,953389,00.html

*Edit 
Here is another article http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/odd-numbers/2007/11/29/why-men-are-better-mathematicians-and-engineers/

This one shows that boys and girls start out equal based on early testing, but their abilities start diverging when school starts.  Somewhere along the way, women become better at testing in verbal abilities, and men become better at testing in math-related abilities.  However, the gap between men and women is shrinking as more women are getting into scientific fields, and of course, we have more women enrolled in college.  There are greater expectations on women nowadays to follow their dreams into science and engineering instead of just teaching or nursing.  I do think this is a case of nurture, not nature.  The abilities are equal in men and women, but the culture has long decided that men need math more than women, and women need social skills more than men.  That is definitely changing, which is a great thing for the planet.

[Sweetdeath]

Thank you for the links, Fester. ( I always think Uncle Fester xD)
Anyway, in general, haven't studies been proven that both diet and a good teaching method have to do with intelligence. I know I have read a few about children with ADD or ADHD have been given a significant amount of sugar and processed foods before the age of 6-7 (before full brain developement.)


I study a lot on my own, because i'm a nerd, but I went to public school all my life, and I always did better than others due to our teachers being well.... terrible at teaching. :\

Once again, thanks so much for the links. I seriously love talking to you guys. Thanks to ThinkAnarchy for being the OP of this thread.

-Sweetdeath

[Tank]

Thank you for the links, Fester. ( I always think Uncle Fester xD)

One avatar for fester

[Sweetdeath]

Thank you for the links, Fester. ( I always think Uncle Fester xD)

One avatar for fester

Lol! Please use it, fester30.