The origins of secularism

[pjkeeley]

Caught a glimpse of this headline: "Christianity In Australian Politics Not Welcomed By All", thought it would be worth a look. Article here:

http://au.christiantoday.com/article/christianity-in-australian-politics-not-welcomed-by-all/3084.htm

We are a very secular country here but unfortunately religion has been creeping slowly into the public attention of late. One part that caught my attention was this:

In the public, hostile responses were made by talkback callers in Melbourne saying that the church and government shouldn't mix; which Reverend Tim Costello, the CEO of World Vision Australia said the complaints were misguided, reported AAP.

"The notion of a separation of church and state was designed to protect the church from government, not the reverse," he said.

This is coming from a man I usually admire, who does a lot for the poor around the world and is always very critical of the government here. But this is not the first time I've come across the idea that secularism was invented to protect religion from government and not (as I have always believed) the other way around.

I don't think this has any historical basis in truth. The idea of seperation of church and state comes from Enlightenment thinkers like Thomas Paine, and you don't have to look very hard to find examples of just how critical he and others were of religion. For hundreds of years the Church had a huge influence over the lives of millions of people, and they didn't exactly do a great job of it. It is true that secularism protects religious freedom and therefore the right to practice any religion and not be persecuted by government, but is that really what America's founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the US constitution?

Thoughts from anyone with a little historical insight?

[tigerlily46514]

I always thought for America anyway, the pilgrims came here to avoid religious persecution, to practice their religion free of the govt influence....So in America, i thought the original concept of separation of church and state(which HAS dissolved in a joke lately) was ORIGINALLY put in place to protect the religion, but just the same, IF i am correct, (not sure, shoulda googled it first, oh well) i still can't understand the remark you quote there, surely the speaker doesn't believe the "reverse" protection is unfair?  well, nothing much surprizes me on this topic anyway......

I would actually enjoy hearing from a more well educated poster than i am on this..i would enjoy knowing that protecting the govt from religion was the beginning....

But either way, whichever side was INTENDED to be protected, i always understood the protection to be both ways.....

the wall should be there.   Sorry to hear if the wall is crumbling in your country...it is only speed bump in USA now, not a 'wall'.....

[rlrose328]

"The notion of a separation of church and state was designed to protect the church from government, not the reverse," he said.


This is usually something we hear from the conservative Christians here in America.  The first amendment of our Constitution is commonly known to refer to separation of church and state, coined by Thomas Jefferson, to keep religious leaders from infiltrating the government consciousness and demanding the government cater to them.  

But as more and more secularists demand separation of church and state,  the Christians throw out that exact statement to insist they have the right to govern using their religion.

Our founding fathers had clear memories of what can happen when the church is allowed to meddle in government and they took steps to ensure that wouldn't happen, but our Christian brethren are doing their best to state this is a CHRISTIAN nation and should be governed accordingly.

They use their beliefs to make laws (banning research using embryonic stem cells because it would "destroy the soul" of that life, banning gay marriage because it's "immoral" and "marriage is a covenant of god and god hates gays," and the anti-abortion movement finds its roots in religion... just to name a few).  This is what happens when government leaders use their religion to govern.

We were pondering a move to Australia a few years back.  We changed our minds upon doing further research, but it's still a place we really want to visit someday.  I hope they are not infiltrated by the religious repression we so "enjoy" here in the US.  

[tigerlily46514]

Ha! i WAS wrong...at least by half....this is a fairly lengthy article on "The Wall"  by Adam Lee.

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/thewall.html


Kerri, i do so completely agree with you about the abuse of the notion that the ORIGIN was to protect the religious....  the religious do indeed abuse this to try to force their agendas.

  Whichever side it was ORIGINALLY intended for, reasonable citizens should know it goes both ways....and since we can't really count on REASON, the legal scholars should know it...

But yet, here we are with religion in a million large and small ways all through our government...from our courthouses to our coins....to the bibles each soldier is given when leaving for Iraq....
My own personal favorite absurdity is when they try to act like the 10 commandments are secular law...bah ha ha!!  I once heard someone, (geoge carlin maybe?) say something like "The Ten worst things in the world--and you'd leave out child abuse, rape, violence, torture, etc in favor of worrying about statues?"

[rlrose328]

Yes, tigerlily... when I'm discussing religion with the other moms at my son's school (the overwhelming majority of which are Christian... fundie Christian at that), I always get 'Why do you care so much?"

Um, other than the aforementioned attempts to govern me with their religion, they don't get that I can't go ONE DAY without some sort of religious reference in my life...  be it money or the pledge, passing huge billboards with bible quotes on the freeway, signs by churches preaching at me, tshirts with bible quotes or Kirk Cameron (gawd, I detest him) beaming at me from a website or YouTube vid.

They come back with, "But I have to deal with bad TV or awful books or other atheistic stuff all the time."  They confuse secular with atheistic... a billboard for a local tittie bar is "atheistic" to them.  And as far as bad tv or awful books, they have the CHOICE to not watch that tv program or not pick up that book.  I HAVE to use money and when helping in my son's classroom, I HAVE to say the pledge (I always yawn during "under god" so it doesn't look to the children as if I'm deliberately leaving it out).

For those who want to see the referenced George Carlin and his take on the 10 commandments, check out this vid:

George Carlin on the 10 Commandments

[tigerlily46514]

Kerri, I did enjoy the George Carlin flick, had heard it before but not in a while.  Was sure worth hearing again!!!  THANK YOU!  Should be required info for all people!!!!  LOVE IT!!!

{Now i'm thinking it was Bill Maher who said that about the ten commandments.....?}

Bah ha ha!  I ended up getting into it with some thumpers commenting on this very video on the you-tube site.  Oh my, i haven't done that in a long time....what a futile effort.  oh well.  Haven't even gone back to see what all rebuttals they have slammed me with, afraid to get myself started again!!  Plus, the post i DID put up, i had to break into TWO sections, there is a limit on how long a post can be...so while i was sending the 2nd half, all these other people were posting in between my two posts...whatever.

BUT THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE VIDEO!  GREAT STUFF!!!!!

EDIT-ALSO, I UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE "WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH?"  I've had that type remark myself when i was commenting on some local courthouse wanting to put up the ten commandments out front.  Another person said this,"Well, heck i don't care, they can put the Koran and all that other stuff out there too...."   !!!!!????!!!!!!!  I just busted out laffin so hard i almost fell outa my chair.  Where do you even start with THAT!!!!!  No concept whatsoever of "the wall".....I was trying to take her to another planet in her mind...It was a difficult flight, rough landing....lost the passenger...

Yeah, it is annoying when they associate all of what they percieve as societal ills with atheism.....bad tv!!!   ooh, and porn, that us, too.  Weirdly enuff, the more religious a person is, the more likely they are have some mighty strange twists going on there, bah ha ha!  But your response about the CHOICE involved is very well put.  I LIKE THE YAWN TRICK!!  I think i'll use that trick myself from now on!!!

[rlrose328]

I usually tell Christians if they want to put up the 10 Commandments, they have to put up the tenets of all other religions practiced in this land.  Open up our borders to anyone and you have to deal with all cultures and religions they bring with them.  You can't say "Sure, come on in... but you have to worship as we do, so memorize these 10 'laws.'"

Have you been to:  Ten Commandments . Org?  There's some scary stuff on that site... scary to know that some people really believe all that they have posted up there.

[tigerlily46514]

I'll check it out!

[Will]

This is something said by someone who has no concept of history. Oh well.