Why Did God Have to Make Evil?

[Davin]

By voter's reasoning if I want all the members here to love and respect me I must create rules against using the word "I", get all upset if anyone accidentally uses the word "I" and banish them immediately, then show my grace by letting them back on the forum after they apologized for using a word that is natural to conversation.

No, you don't understand my reasoning.

Suppose you really hate the word "I" to the extent you'd like to punish those who use it, but you keep that to yourself. People seemingly love and respect you. But, their use of "I" eats at you, and you know that some or all of them would abandon you if you made your position known and acted on it. On your side, you certainly can't describe this as a close relationship.

So, you make your feelings on "I" known and act accordingly. Most people call you a tyrant and leave. A few say it's your right to set the rules on your board, and while they may not fully understand why you hate "I," they make the effort to avoid it. You now have a closer relationship with these people than you had before, and you forgive their occasional slips.

Sounds like that thing where abused spouses still love their asshole abusers. Of course they're free to leave so it's ok for their spouses to beat them, after all it is their spouses house.

[LegendarySandwich]

And he made that so. He made it so that we had to know him to love him, so he created evil and sin so we could experience his wrath and "mercy".

Personally I find it illogical to posit an existence in which we can reasonably love and hate things without knowledge of them. Can you explain this?

I find it illogical to assume that God must have made things the way they are. God could have made our universe anything -- our laws of physics anything -- logic anything -- etc.

God created the concepts of love, hate, and knowledge. To say that they couldn't be anything different is insulting to God's great power and magnificence (his omnipotence).

And yet, he everything work in a way that made the existence of evil/sin necessary. Why?

[Voter]

By voter's reasoning if I want all the members here to love and respect me I must create rules against using the word "I", get all upset if anyone accidentally uses the word "I" and banish them immediately, then show my grace by letting them back on the forum after they apologized for using a word that is natural to conversation.

No, you don't understand my reasoning.

Suppose you really hate the word "I" to the extent you'd like to punish those who use it, but you keep that to yourself. People seemingly love and respect you. But, their use of "I" eats at you, and you know that some or all of them would abandon you if you made your position known and acted on it. On your side, you certainly can't describe this as a close relationship.

So, you make your feelings on "I" known and act accordingly. Most people call you a tyrant and leave. A few say it's your right to set the rules on your board, and while they may not fully understand why you hate "I," they make the effort to avoid it. You now have a closer relationship with these people than you had before, and you forgive their occasional slips.

Sounds like that thing where abused spouses still love their asshole abusers.

No, that's not analogous, as the people who leave don't still love her, and the people who stay aren't being abused.

[Voter]

I find it illogical to assume that God must have made things the way they are.

Then it was illogical for you to ask "Why did God have to make evil?" in the first place, and you're shown to be trolling.

[Whitney]

By voter's reasoning if I want all the members here to love and respect me I must create rules against using the word "I", get all upset if anyone accidentally uses the word "I" and banish them immediately, then show my grace by letting them back on the forum after they apologized for using a word that is natural to conversation.

No, you don't understand my reasoning.

Suppose you really hate the word "I" to the extent you'd like to punish those who use it, but you keep that to yourself. People seemingly love and respect you. But, their use of "I" eats at you, and you know that some or all of them would abandon you if you made your position known and acted on it. On your side, you certainly can't describe this as a close relationship.

So, you make your feelings on "I" known and act accordingly. Most people call you a tyrant and leave. A few say it's your right to set the rules on your board, and while they may not fully understand why you hate "I," they make the effort to avoid it. You now have a closer relationship with these people than you had before, and you forgive their occasional slips.

So you are saying that an all powerful being can't figure out how to be more understanding of someone would have a tendency to want to use the word "I" and instead of getting murderously upset makes every bit of an effort to tone it down a few notches and make peace with the word "I" knowing that others will try to avoid the word "I" when around him?  

What you are describing is a one way street relationship; true relationships are a two way street.

[Whitney]

Sounds like that thing where abused spouses still love their asshole abusers.

No, that's not analogous, as the people who leave don't still love her, and the people who stay aren't being abused.

I think you should read up on spouse abuse...

[Voter]

By voter's reasoning if I want all the members here to love and respect me I must create rules against using the word "I", get all upset if anyone accidentally uses the word "I" and banish them immediately, then show my grace by letting them back on the forum after they apologized for using a word that is natural to conversation.

No, you don't understand my reasoning.

Suppose you really hate the word "I" to the extent you'd like to punish those who use it, but you keep that to yourself. People seemingly love and respect you. But, their use of "I" eats at you, and you know that some or all of them would abandon you if you made your position known and acted on it. On your side, you certainly can't describe this as a close relationship.

So, you make your feelings on "I" known and act accordingly. Most people call you a tyrant and leave. A few say it's your right to set the rules on your board, and while they may not fully understand why you hate "I," they make the effort to avoid it. You now have a closer relationship with these people than you had before, and you forgive their occasional slips.

So you are saying that an all powerful being can't figure out how to be more understanding of someone would have a tendency to want to use the word "I" and instead of getting murderously upset makes every bit of an effort to tone it down a few notches and make peace with the word "I" knowing that others will try to avoid the word "I" when around him?  

No, I'm not saying that. See the bolded part. God does tone it down with those who recognize his wishes and try to live by them.

What you are describing is a one way street relationship; true relationships are a two way street.

How is it one-way? It seems two-way to me.

[LegendarySandwich]

I find it illogical to assume that God must have made things the way they are.

Then it was illogical for you to ask "Why did God have to make evil?" in the first place, and you're shown to be trolling.

...

 

I find it funny that Voter is calling me a troll.

[Whitney]

How is it one-way? It seems two-way to me.

When only one person has to change it's a one way relationship.

Just because you think the end result is a closer relationship (I disagree) doesn't make it a two way relationship.

[Voter]

I find it funny that Voter is calling me a troll.

I find it funny that you attempt to dismiss it like that, rather than addressing the actual argument.

[Voter]

When only one person has to change it's a one way relationship.

Yes, but in the example both sides changed, so your charge fails. One side opened up and shared, the other started avoiding the word, and the first overlooked occasional slips. That's definitely two-sided.

[LegendarySandwich]

I find it funny that Voter is calling me a troll.

I find it funny that you attempt to dismiss it like that, rather than addressing the actual argument.

A lot of Christians get around the "why does evil exist?" problem by saying that God had to make evil, or something like that. I'm saying he didn't.

How obvious does that need to be?

[Voter]

A lot of Christians get around the "why does evil exist?" problem by saying that God had to make evil, or something like that. I'm saying he didn't.

See, that was much more productive.

I agree that god was not under compulsion to create in any particular way. I've given an explanation for the aspects of creation that you questioned.

You've since said that God could have made a creation in which we could love or hate things without knowing them. Well, maybe, but it's not something we can discuss rationally. If that's what you're left with, I guess we're done.

[LegendarySandwich]

You've since said that God could have made a creation in which we could love or hate things without knowing them. Well, maybe, but it's not something we can discuss rationally. If that's what you're left with, I guess we're done.

That was just one example. There are literally infinite ways to have made the universe. Many of them do not require evil for everything to work well. If God was good, he wouldn't have created evil.

[Whitney]

When only one person has to change it's a one way relationship.

Yes, but in the example both sides changed, so your charge fails. One side opened up and shared, the other started avoiding the word, and the first overlooked occasional slips. That's definitely two-sided.

I wouldn't call sharing that you want to kill someone every time you see a certain action then not making an attempt to tone down your emotions to something more more normal is changing.  It's just voicing your opinion then demanding others act in accordance with your wishes or else.