Why Did God Have to Make Evil?

[LegendarySandwich]

So:
-God made humans
-God wants to know humans, but in a deep and emotional way
-One of God's qualities is [strike:2al3edqy]vengeful wrath and anger[/strike:2al3edqy] righteous judgment-So, in order to show this quality, he [strike:2al3edqy]creates[/strike:2al3edqy] allows evil and sin in the world

I would change slightly as noted above, but basically you have it right.

Makes perfect sense.

Yes, it does. Consider human dating. Most people have guards up on a first date. Those guards need to be relaxed if a deeper relationship is desired.

The reason you get around the problem of evil is by saying that God is [strike:2al3edqy]an evil, petty asshole, which I agree with[/strike:2al3edqy] a righteous judge.

Again, aside from spin, you have it right.

An unusual position, but I guess it works, if you ignore all the passages in the Bible where it says he's a loving god and whatnot.

He is a loving god. He's also a righteous judge. The two are not mutually exclusive.

He didn't "allow" sin to exist, he created it.

Why did he have to create evil and sin to show that he was a righteous God? Why is that the only way to show his love?

[LegendarySandwich]

If I were to carry out my plan to act more godly (as stated above) would that not make me an evil petty asshole?

Your plan stated above is not a correct understanding of my position.

On what planet does creating evil and eternal suffering to make oneself look good not, to use the kindness word possible, at least narcissistic?

The Bible makes it pretty clear that God alone is worthy of praise. If you want to spin that as narcissism, that's your choice. I see it as simple truth.

BTW, unless you're really unusual, you spend time and money to make yourself look good, when that time and money could have gone to reducing suffering in your fellow man. Does that make you narcissistic?

Is that really your argument? God needs to spend time making himself look good to us, instead of reducing suffering?

[Sophus]

Your plan stated above is not a correct understanding of my position.

In what way does it differ? To me it's actually much more mild compared to inflicting evil and suffering on the entire human race.
 

The Bible makes it pretty clear that God alone is worthy of praise. If you want to spin that as narcissism, that's your choice. I see it as simple truth.

How does demanding infinite praise not amount to narcissism? If that doesn't equal narcissism then narcissism does not exist. You would think he'd grow tired after the first billion years of worship, but no, it has to go on.

BTW, unless you're really unusual, you spend time and money to make yourself look good, when that time and money could have gone to reducing suffering in your fellow man. Does that make you narcissistic?

By what? Buying a comb? Paying for haircuts? That's the equivalent to intimidating an inestimable number of people into unwarranted worship against the fear of eternal suffering in hell? Your logic says haircuts equal narcissism but creating evil for personal glory doesn't? You really believe that?

[Voter]

He didn't "allow" sin to exist, he created it.

I disagree, but don't see that the distinction is that important for this purpose.

Why did he have to create evil and sin to show that he was a righteous God?

I don't know that he had to, as I'm not smart enough to consider all possible alternatives, but it's certainly an obvious and direct way to accomplish his goal.

Why is that the only way to show his love?

Again, I can't say it's the only way, and it isn't about showing love, it's about showing wrath and mercy.

[Voter]

Is that really your argument? God needs to spend time making himself look good to us, instead of reducing suffering?

No, my argument, as I stated plainly, is that God desires a deep relationship with us, and that requires that we know him fairly completely. You shouldn't have a problem understanding this, as it's common sense and experience. If I said I was leaving my wife and going to Hollywood because I'm in love with Julia Roberts, the first thing people would say to me is, "You can't love Julia Roberts, as you barely know her," and they would be correct.

[LegendarySandwich]

He didn't "allow" sin to exist, he created it.

I disagree, but don't see that the distinction is that important for this purpose.

Why did he have to create evil and sin to show that he was a righteous God?

I don't know that he had to, as I'm not smart enough to consider all possible alternatives, but it's certainly an obvious and direct way to accomplish his goal.

Why is that the only way to show his love?

Again, I can't say it's the only way, and it isn't about showing love, it's about showing wrath and mercy.

"Hmm...I made these humans, and I want them to love me and worship me with their praise for all of their Earthly and immortal lives...so, I shall create (or allow, even though at some point he had to create it) sin and evil!"

Any god that would create evil so that his subjects that he created would worship him is evil. There's no real way around that.

EDIT:

No, my argument, as I stated plainly, is that God desires a deep relationship with us, and that requires that we know him fairly completely. You shouldn't have a problem understanding this, as it's common sense and experience. If I said I was leaving my wife and going to Hollywood because I'm in love with Julia Roberts, the first thing people would say to me is, "You can't love Julia Roberts, as you barely know her," and they would be correct.

He didn't have to create evil to do that.

[Asmodean]

is that God desires a deep relationship with us

Then why should those who do not want any kind of relationship with god still play his games..?

and that requires that we know him fairly completely.

...millenia of foreplay and still he fails. Sad.  :raised:

[Voter]

In what way does it differ? To me it's actually much more mild compared to inflicting evil and suffering on the entire human race.

I focus on the gracious act of giving life to the entire human race, and giving salvation to me, so I see it differently.
 

How does demanding infinite praise not amount to narcissism? If that doesn't equal narcissism then narcissism does not exist. You would think he'd grow tired after the first billion years of worship, but no, it has to go on.

Narcissism is by definition excessive. I don't think it's excessive for the creator of an entire universe to expect continuing admiration from the beings he created.

By what? Buying a comb? Paying for haircuts?

Paying much more for a car, clothes, or house than what you really need to get by on. Buying a computer and spending time posting with it rather than helping the elderly or homeless. Most of us constantly put our own pleasure and glory ahead of the suffering of others.

That's the equivalent to intimidating an inestimable number of people into unwarranted worship against the fear of eternal suffering in hell? Your logic says haircuts equal narcissism but creating evil for personal glory doesn't? You really believe that?

The difference is that I believe the worship is indeed warranted. If I created a universe I'd think I was pretty hot stuff, and justifiably so.

[Asmodean]

I focus on the gracious act of giving life to the entire human race, and giving salvation to me, so I see it differently.

Yeah, well... Human race was getting by very well without "salvation" and we do manage to reproduce by ways of sex so... Unnecessary god is unnecessary.

[LegendarySandwich]

God created us to praise and worship him. If we don't, we'll be infinitely punished for all eternity.

That is evil. God gave me my morality, so obviously it must be so.

[Voter]

"Hmm...I made these humans, and I want them to love me and worship me with their praise for all of their Earthly and immortal lives...so, I shall create (or allow, even though at some point he had to create it) sin and evil!"

Yes, for the reason noted - love is limited by one's knowledge of the object.

[LegendarySandwich]

"Hmm...I made these humans, and I want them to love me and worship me with their praise for all of their Earthly and immortal lives...so, I shall create (or allow, even though at some point he had to create it) sin and evil!"

Yes, for the reason noted - love is limited by one's knowledge of the object.

And he made that so. He made it so that we had to know him to love him, so he created evil and sin so we could experience his wrath and "mercy".

That is evil. And petty. And assholeish.

[Voter]

And he made that so. He made it so that we had to know him to love him, so he created evil and sin so we could experience his wrath and "mercy".

Personally I find it illogical to posit an existence in which we can reasonably love and hate things without knowledge of them. Can you explain this?

[Whitney]

By voter's reasoning if I want all the members here to love and respect me I must create rules against using the word "I", get all upset if anyone accidentally uses the word "I" and banish them immediately, then show my grace by letting them back on the forum after they apologized for using a word that is natural to conversation.

[Voter]

By voter's reasoning if I want all the members here to love and respect me I must create rules against using the word "I", get all upset if anyone accidentally uses the word "I" and banish them immediately, then show my grace by letting them back on the forum after they apologized for using a word that is natural to conversation.

No, you don't understand my reasoning.

Suppose you really hate the word "I" to the extent you'd like to punish those who use it, but you keep that to yourself. People seemingly love and respect you. But, their use of "I" eats at you, and you know that some or all of them would abandon you if you made your position known and acted on it. On your side, you certainly can't describe this as a close relationship.

So, you make your feelings on "I" known and act accordingly. Most people call you a tyrant and leave. A few say it's your right to set the rules on your board, and while they may not fully understand why you hate "I," they make the effort to avoid it. You now have a closer relationship with these people than you had before, and you forgive their occasional slips.