Why Religious People Are Scared of Atheists

[lundberg500]

We are warned through the endtime prophecies that "brother will turn against brother...".

Hee hee. Prophecies...   . People who believe in prophecies crack me up, especially prophecies out of that awful book.

[AnimatedDirt]

So you expect Christians to persecute Christians.  That's even worse.  Doesn't the fact that Christianity fosters persecution give you pause?  Mustn't there be something intrinsic to Christianity that manifests as persecution - and whatever that is, mustn't it be undesirable?

Yes, it's called selfishness, greed, the need to be/feel better than the other, to be one up on the other, survival at all costs.  It's also called human nature.

Yet you don't fear persecution from atheists.  Why not?  If atheists ever became the majority would you fear persecution from them then?

It may come also, but the largest push for persecution of Christians (as the Bible alludes to) will be from their brother.  Not only that, but what do Christians have to worry about if an enemy persecutes?  Nothing.  It's what an enemy does.  The matter to get straight, then, is what persecution will be about.  It is worship of a counterfeit.  (Revelation 14:9-12) Why would Atheists persecute Christians for worshipping a Giant Spaghetti Monster or their own god?  To what purpose?  Rather, families will be divided (Luke 12:53).  Will the Atheist participate?  I don't know, I suppose they might, but then again, the Atheist may simply sit back and giggle at the spectacle...yes?

[Stevil]

The matter to get straight, then, is what persecution will be about.  It is worship of a counterfeit.  (Revelation 14:9-12)

It is exactly for this reason that theist fight amongst themselves. Their faiths are intolerant, arrogant and lead to martydom for their god/s. Their scriptures glorify war and lead them to believe that if they fight on their (true) god's side they will be rewarded.

Only tolerance leads to peace. Faiths are destined for persecution, war and destruction. If you take the attitude that others worship a counterfeit then you are part of the problem.

[AnimatedDirt]

The matter to get straight, then, is what persecution will be about.  It is worship of a counterfeit.  (Revelation 14:9-12)

It is exactly for this reason that theist fight amongst themselves. Their faiths are intolerant, arrogant and lead to martydom for their god/s. Their scriptures glorify war and lead them to believe that if they fight on their (true) god's side they will be rewarded.

So because in the natural world the law of death is evident means that anyone that lives or acknowledges this glorifies death?  Because you know you will die, teach this knowledge to your offspring, that they too will someday die, means you glorify death? Hardly at all, it's a reality.  Just because the bible speaks of war and wars to come as a result of division doesn't mean it glorifies it, but rather, acknowledges the reality of it.

Only tolerance leads to peace. Faiths are destined for persecution, war and destruction.

Are you willing to be tolerant of all religion and their practices?  Faiths are destined for persecution, war and destruction, you say?  Then you and the bible agree except that this biblical idea predates yours by a few years.

If you take the attitude that others worship a counterfeit then you are part of the problem.

Attitude is as attitude does.  I am 100% for the freedom of every person to worship or not out of their own conscience.  You wont find me trying to dictate my worship to anyone.  I will, however, share this Good News, but will never force anyone by any means or ever vote for any such law that does so.  When you see religious laws in secular society, THAT is when you will see the beginnings of religious persecution dealing with worship.  It's the I know better than you attitude that will bring it about.

[Stevil]

Are you willing to be tolerant of all religion and their practices?

I am tolerant as long as it does not affect me or my loved ones. I feel sad when I see it affect followers in a negative way, but I do not get involved as I respect the followers choice.

I am 100% for the freedom of every person to worship or not out of their own conscience.

Yet you produce the quote "It is worship of a counterfeit". How would it feel to you to have non Christians say that about worship of your god?
My personal statement is that I do not have a belief in your god. I would not be so arrogant and combative to say that your god is a counterfeit as if it is a fact!

[Inevitable Droid]

Are you willing to be tolerant of all religion and their practices?

Yes - so long as they don't encroach upon me.  If all theists did was write books that only they were reading, and go into specially designated buildings they owned to talk and sing amongst themselves, they would be nothing more than a curiosity to me, perhaps even a charming one.  But that isn't all they do.  They want to rule the world and they are engaged in attempting to do so, each denomination and each individual to a greater or lesser degree, but in the aggregate, they seek global hegemony.

This thread is developing a parallel text, the reverse of its title.  I am speaking of, "Why Atheists are Scared of Religious People."

When you see religious laws in secular society, THAT is when you will see the beginnings of religious persecution dealing with worship.  It's the I know better than you attitude that will bring it about.

I strongly agree.  And among those persecuted will most certainly be the atheists.  This is why religious law must be fought tooth and nail, and that fight is the reason some atheists want to attack the root, which is scriptural theism as an institution.

You are also right that the sincere and honest atheist will never be the Antichrist, nor the disciple of the Antichrist.  Atheism disavows the Antichrist just as adamantly as it disavows the Christ.  Let Christ or Antichrist attempt to set up religious law, and the sincere and honest atheist will passionately resist.

No law but justice, and no justice but what common sense compels.  Twelve words that could one day become a rallying cry.

[Gawen]

So because in the natural world the law of death is evident means that anyone that lives or acknowledges this glorifies death?  Because you know you will die, teach this knowledge to your offspring, that they too will someday die, means you glorify death? Hardly at all, it's a reality.  Just because the bible speaks of war and wars to come as a result of division doesn't mean it glorifies it, but rather, acknowledges the reality of it.

Stevil didn't say that. But theists do. Life is not glorified anymore. There is no wonder, only suffering; what is man's lot in life. Death is glorified because they say there will be a new life through the grace of some sacrifice that wasn't.

Are you willing to be tolerant of all religion and their practices?  Faiths are destined for persecution, war and destruction, you say?  Then you and the bible agree except that this biblical idea predates yours by a few years.

Self fulfilling prophecy. Only problem is that faiths had been warring many more years before the bible was written. Nothing to see  here.....move along.

If you take the attitude that others worship a counterfeit then you are part of the problem.

Attitude is as attitude does. etc

Somewhat contradictory, I think.

[KebertX]

Before I get ripped apart for using an ad hominem attack, I want you all to know that this is not meant to be taken as a logical argument: AnimatedDirt is an idiot.

Not even necessarily true, it's just a feeling I wanted to express.

You know when someone continually says things that are incredibly flawed, you don't even know where to start correcting them?  And you sort of get overloaded and you can't think of anything to say off the top of your head other than, "You are an idiot!"?  That's what's going on here.

I have no time for a real post, sorry  

[Inevitable Droid]

Attitude is as attitude does.  I am 100% for the freedom of every person to worship or not out of their own conscience.

Yet your God isn't.  If your God is real, then I am going to burn in hell for all eternity, simply because I refused to believe in and worship something that logical empiricism demands I reject.  

You wont find me trying to dictate my worship to anyone.

Yet your God does.  And you worship him.  Do you agree with your God's attitude?

I will, however, share this Good News, but will never force anyone by any means or ever vote for any such law that does so.  When you see religious laws in secular society, THAT is when you will see the beginnings of religious persecution dealing with worship.  It's the I know better than you attitude that will bring it about.

Yet you clearly are of the opinion that you in fact know better than I as to what awaits us after death, as well as what has happened in the past regarding a Jewish carpenter's son, what has happened in the past with regard to the Jews as a group, and what will happen in the future globally with respect to an Antichrist.  You assume superior knowledge.  You may say that you don't claim it, perhaps, but all you would mean by that is, you don't publicly profess your superior knowledge, perhaps out of politeness, or perhaps as a strategic position.  You are in fact of the opinion that you know better than me.

Your comments above are the sort that make some of us atheists on this message board shake our heads and wonder which is the case - are you sincere and self-deceitful, or insincere?  Reaction to the first option gets expressed like so:

AnimatedDirt is an idiot.

Not even necessarily true, it's just a feeling I wanted to express.

I understand KebertX's reaction.  I have it constantly reading posts from you, from Achronos, from Voter, and in previous weeks from bandit4god.  Some of the things you four have said and which three of you continue to say, just make my head explode.  I continually struggle with whether you're sincere and self-deceitful, or, rather, insincere.

To the extent any of you are insincere, you're trolls.  There have been times when I've concluded you were a troll, AnimatedDirt.  I'm convinced Voter is a troll.  

But see, if you're not a troll, AnimatedDirt, then some of your positions are so screamingly illogical that I don't know how you can hold onto them.  I don't mean unempirical.  I've accepted the fact that Christians don't care about empiricism.  In fact, I've accepted the fact that Christians place faith over even logic.  I just don't understand how you then continue to function in the world, since logic is such a requirement for survival and success.

[The Magic Pudding]

I just don't understand how you then continue to function in the world, since logic is such a requirement for survival and success.

Don't they just compartmentalise it?
Certain things are possible in the Star Trek universe, others in Star Wars, and different ones again apply in the Bible.
I can enjoy Star Trek but I don't  rely on an emergency beam up in real life.
I think Christians know that they have to respect the law of gravity to make it through the day.
Holding contradictory ideas seems inefficient, but theists prove it is possible.

[Inevitable Droid]

Don't they just compartmentalise it?
Certain things are possible in the Star Trek universe, others in Star Wars, and different ones again apply in the Bible.

But even within the biblical compartment the Christian will be illogical.  Consider this:

----------------
Premise: I deem it wrong to condemn someone for positions held in good conscience.
Premise: My God condemns people for positions held in good conscience.
Premise: I worship my God.
Conclusion: I am a hypocrite.
---------------

The above conclusion is obvious to you and me, but the Christian declines to draw it.  Simply declines.

Wait.  Wait, I see what you're saying.

The Christian doesn't merely set logic aside in order to enter the biblical compartment.  The Christian also sets logic aside while within the biblical compartment.  Both in entering and in navigating the biblical compartment, logic is set aside.

OK.  Makes sense.  

Another reason why Christianity is dangerous, then.  Nothing is more dangerous than setting logic aside.

[Gawen]

Before I get ripped apart for using an ad hominem attack, I want you all to know that this is not meant to be taken as a logical argument: AnimatedDirt is an idiot.

Not even necessarily true, it's just a feeling I wanted to express.

You know when someone continually says things that are incredibly flawed, you don't even know where to start correcting them?  And you sort of get overloaded and you can't think of anything to say off the top of your head other than, "You are an idiot!"?  That's what's going on here.

I have no time for a real post, sorry  

I know precisely how you feel. Some people's posts are so...wrong....so much wrong....one doesn't know where to start. Deconstructing/refuting so much junk is time consuming, head-bangingly, excruciatingly tedious. If only they could stay on topic (or two).

Sometimes debating theists is like trying to play three dimensional chess on their one half of a one dimensional board.

[AnimatedDirt]

Yet you produce the quote "It is worship of a counterfeit". How would it feel to you to have non Christians say that about worship of your god?

If you only knew...

My personal statement is that I do not have a belief in your god. I would not be so arrogant and combative to say that your god is a counterfeit as if it is a fact!

I'm not trying to change your mind...obviously on this forum it would be next to impossible.  I'm encouraged to hear you wouldn't, however it seems you may be in the minority here considering some remarks.  But really, to get personally hurt by being called an idiot, for example, is not logical considering I came here.  It's expected.

Yes - so long as they don't encroach upon me. If all theists did was write books that only they were reading, and go into specially designated buildings they owned to talk and sing amongst themselves, they would be nothing more than a curiosity to me, perhaps even a charming one.

Encroachment in your space is not something one can control unless you're willing to remove yourself from the area of influence.  This is why I support separation of Church and State.  I don't want anyone's religious ideas placed above my own conscience as a law or even as a promoted idea.  This is why I mentioned I would rather have an Atheistic leader of this nation with no agenda other than equality for all.

But that isn't all they do. They want to rule the world and they are engaged in attempting to do so, each denomination and each individual to a greater or lesser degree, but in the aggregate, they seek global hegemony.

I'm in agreement with you here.  It is what the vast majority want to do...even (to a lesser degree) within the heirarchy of my own denomination.  The human nature is much stronger than we wish to admit...that being a selfish nature.  We don't like to be wrong and so given an inch, will take much more.  We are comissioned to spread the Good News, but it's not to be spread by force.

Stevil didn't say that. But theists do. Life is not glorified anymore. There is no wonder, only suffering; what is man's lot in life. Death is glorified because they say there will be a new life through the grace of some sacrifice that wasn't.

Therein lies a problem.  To the Christian that believes (wrongly, IMHO) one goes immediately, upon physical death to paradise, death is welcome and a thing of glory.  Death is not necessarily glorified in scripture in that we are to hope for it, but it is said we Christians (those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus) will be persecuted and put to death.  Death is not hoped for, but death is inevitable, more so if you're on Christ's side which goes against the grain.

Self fulfilling prophecy. Only problem is that faiths had been warring many more years before the bible was written. Nothing to see here.....move along.

You're right.  It's difficult to record history unless it is in the past.

Before I get ripped apart for using an ad hominem attack, I want you all to know that this is not meant to be taken as a logical argument: AnimatedDirt is an idiot.

Not even necessarily true, it's just a feeling I wanted to express.

You know when someone continually says things that are incredibly flawed, you don't even know where to start correcting them? And you sort of get overloaded and you can't think of anything to say off the top of your head other than, "You are an idiot!"? That's what's going on here.

I have no time for a real post, sorry

So then what we are left with is basically that which you claim it isn't.  Is this a tactic all are welcomed to employ?

[...]You are in fact of the opinion that you know better than me.

Not at all.  I am of the opinion that if what I believe is true (and I believe it) then it's better for ALL.  I don't know "better" than you, I just have some news to share.  We are both equal.  We have the same opportunities.  We both have choice, you choose your scientific methodology and I apparently choose my "empirical" methodology.

Your comments above are the sort that make some of us atheists on this message board shake our heads and wonder which is the case - are you sincere and self-deceitful, or insincere?

Is it self-deceitful to see that the struggle will begin from within?  Is it self-deceitful to realize that "I am my own worst enemy", because I know myself and my inner struggles?  Where is an enemy most dangerous?  Is it when he is openly hunting you down or when he has become your friend?

But see, if you're not a troll, AnimatedDirt, then some of your positions are so screamingly illogical that I don't know how you can hold onto them. I don't mean unempirical. I've accepted the fact that Christians don't care about empiricism. In fact, I've accepted the fact that Christians place faith over even logic. I just don't understand how you then continue to function in the world, since logic is such a requirement for survival and success.

I hope I'm not a troll.  I came to this forum for something different.  I enjoy reading, especially on sciences and religion.  I knew I'd be in the minority with my view and figured I'd get a few names thrown at me.  It's expected.  I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do hope for something better.  If it's illogical, then I'll take my shots like anyone else.  I'd like to believe that I too can be a good person as you describe and aspire to be, but my mind has found something more that I'm willing to accept without absolute scientific proof.  Is there anything in your life that you accept without absolute scientific proof?  I would imagine so.  You're the Doubting Thomas' type.  That's ok.  The problem is that not every person like you will have the opportunity to inspect, touch, feel, and see for themselves.

Yet your God does. And you worship him. Do you agree with your God's attitude?

If He is God as He suggests in the bible, then it matters not whether I agree or disagree.  It is how it is.  He affords all a choice.  One leads to life and the other to death (not perpetual agony).  The choice made is everlasting and forever.  The consequence is death, complete separation.

Yet your God isn't. If your God is real, then I am going to burn in hell for all eternity, simply because I refused to believe in and worship something that logical empiricism demands I reject.

Who's logic?  Logic from a species that has evolved from nothing?  A fallacy in and of itself.  A species that is the only species (you may claim "so far") that has evolved reason, self-awarness, thoughts of God, what am I, who am I, where am I, where did I come from?  This species (as the scientific mind sees it) has come from (1) Nothing, (2) has evolved through trial and error, (3) says to itself that its own design is flawed (this from its own mind...yet it exists happily) at BEST our evolution is in the trial stage, more realistically we are in the error.  So playing the odds, our "logic" is more than likely flawed.  If we are honest with ourselves, we can't even be sure of our own logic if we truly are an evolved species.  Our logic is only relevant to our knowledge and only of today's knowledge.  If God is true, who's logic is skewed?  Animated dirt has more knowledge and logic that that which animated it?

[TheJackel]

Who's logic? Logic from a species that has evolved from nothing? A fallacy in and of itself. A species that is the only species (you may claim "so far") that has evolved reason, self-awarness, thoughts of God, what am I, who am I, where am I, where did I come from? This species (as the scientific mind sees it) has come from (1) Nothing, (2) has evolved through trial and error, (3) says to itself that its own design is flawed (this from its own mind...yet it exists happily) at BEST our evolution is in the trial stage, more realistically we are in the error. So playing the odds, our "logic" is more than likely flawed. If we are honest with ourselves, we can't even be sure of our own logic if we truly are an evolved species. Our logic is only relevant to our knowledge and only of today's knowledge. If God is true, who's logic is skewed? Animated dirt has more knowledge and logic that that which animated it?

Nothing doesn't exist and never could exist literally as a person, place or thing. Nobody ever said anything evolved from the literal definition of nothing vs what most people perceive to be nothing. And you are in no position to state that the Human species is the only species in existence to have evolved reason, self-awareness, or even "thoughts". And the funny part of your argument is that you are trying to suggest that these things had to be "created" without actually realizing the funny little quagmire in that logical fallacy. Hence, how exactly do you "create" into existence consciousness, self-awareness, information, knowledge, reality, existence, that state of existence or even a place of existence when that very thing you call and assume to be a god is equally slave to require for it's very own existence. It seems like you have a very shallow level of critical thinking skills when it comes to evaluating your own arguments, ideas, concepts, or ideological beliefs.

Another flaw in your argument is that the human species is not the only species to be "self-aware". Apes, dolphins, and whales such as the Killer Whale (Orca) have shown to be self-aware. In fact many species have been found to recognize themselves, interact in social groups, or even apply reason. Killer whales can coordinate collectively in figuring out to find better ways to kill and capture prey. They can also develop specific social groups and even new tactics. Their communication levels are considered complex enough to be an actual language. But even if none of this were true, existence is very vast to the point where your suggestion that the human species is somehow the only species to exist with intelligence is unfounded, and largely based on assumption to support your ideological construct even if there were no other sentient species within existence.

However, before you say people say things come from nothing as an argument, I strongly suggest you read up on concepts of complexity, ground state, zero point energy, infinite regress, and universal set of all sets.. There will always be a ground state at the lowest level of complexity in regards to existence to where complexity can regress no further. And sadly for you, consciousness and self-awareness are far more complex than unconsciousness, and the absence of awareness to where consciousness and awareness require far more cause to exist than the latter.

So I will simply say that Existence, or state of existence exists because the opposite is literally impossible. No creator required, and that is especially true when we know that consciousness is not required for existence to exist since non-existence can not be a literal person, place, or thing. Objects, places, or things do not require conscious entities to exist. Hence, creationists have it all backwards

If He is God as He suggests in the bible, then it matters not whether I agree or disagree. It is how it is. He affords all a choice. One leads to life and the other to death (not perpetual agony). The choice made is everlasting and forever. The consequence is death, complete separation.

Before you can even make this kind of argument you have to specifically define said deity and it's qualities. The bible for example doesn't do that and even contradicts itself. For example:

The bible states that your supposed GOD doesn't know everything, and does know everything. The rest of your argument is pure assumption without actually clarifying any of it from the actual supposed horses mouth. It's just like spreading rumors about someones character, will, or likeness while suggesting it's all facts without actually having to prove any of it. Hence, take the leap of faith that Joey down the street is a child rapist who's will is to enforce is ideological constructs of rape upon all your children without the requirement to prove it. Thus you expect people to actually just assume magical book called the bible or what you have to say as some sort of divine truth that ought not to be questioned.

If you ever read books on the mechanics of brainwashing and subliminal programming you would actually understand the written structure of the bible, how many religious organizations advertise, or how much of the indoctrination processes found in religion operate and function. And it all starts with seeding conceptual ideas into beliefs through emotional manipulation and attachment that eventually generate social structure, ideological constructs, and psychological dogmas. The fear and salvation programming tools are most commonly used, but other methods are more discrete in their approach.

[AnimatedDirt]

Who's logic? Logic from a species that has evolved from nothing? A fallacy in and of itself. A species that is the only species (you may claim "so far") that has evolved reason, self-awarness, thoughts of God, what am I, who am I, where am I, where did I come from? This species (as the scientific mind sees it) has come from (1) Nothing, (2) has evolved through trial and error, (3) says to itself that its own design is flawed (this from its own mind...yet it exists happily) at BEST our evolution is in the trial stage, more realistically we are in the error. So playing the odds, our "logic" is more than likely flawed. If we are honest with ourselves, we can't even be sure of our own logic if we truly are an evolved species. Our logic is only relevant to our knowledge and only of today's knowledge. If God is true, who's logic is skewed? Animated dirt has more knowledge and logic that that which animated it?

Nothing doesn't exist and never could exist literally as a person, place or thing. Nobody ever said anything evolved from the literal definition of nothing vs what most people perceive to be nothing. And you are in no position to state that the Human species is the only species in existence to have evolved reason, self-awareness, or even "thoughts". And the funny part of your argument is that you are trying to suggest that these things had to be "created" without actually realizing the funny little quagmire in that logical fallacy. Hence, how exactly do you "create" into existence consciousness, self-awareness, information, knowledge, reality, existence, that state of existence or even a place of existence when that very thing you call and assume to be a god is equally slave to require for it's very own existence. It seems like you have a very shallow level of critical thinking skills when it comes to evaluating your own arguments, ideas, concepts, or ideological beliefs.

Another flaw in your argument is that the human species is not the only species to be "self-aware". Apes, dolphins, and whales such as the Killer Whale (Orca) have shown to be self-aware. In fact many species have been found to recognize themselves, interact in social groups, or even apply reason. Killer whales can coordinate collectively in figuring out to find better ways to kill and capture prey. They can also develop specific social groups and even new tactics. Their communication levels are considered complex enough to be an actual language. But even if none of this were true, existence is very vast to the point where your suggestion that the human species is somehow the only species to exist with intelligence is unfounded, and largely based on assumption to support your ideological construct even if there were no other sentient species within existence.

However, before you say people say things come from nothing as an argument, I strongly suggest you read up on concepts of complexity, ground state, zero point energy, infinite regress, and universal set of all sets.. There will always be a ground state at the lowest level of complexity in regards to existence to where complexity can regress no further. And sadly for you, consciousness and self-awareness are far more complex than unconsciousness, and the absence of awareness to where consciousness and awareness require far more cause to exist than the latter.

So I will simply say that Existence, or state of existence exists because the opposite is literally impossible. No creator required, and that is especially true when we know that consciousness is not required for existence to exist since non-existence can not be a literal person, place, or thing. Objects, places, or things do not require conscious entities to exist. Hence, creationists have it all backwards

I didn't realize self-existence meant seeing oneself in the mirror (which many scientist dismiss) and you ironically dismiss the part about the who, what, where, when and why, not to mention the ability to scientifically test, ponder and reason, but if whales, dolphins and apes and a mirror is your argument to laugh at mine..., how many steps or years of evolution would you place between whales, dolphins, apes and humans in respect to JUST their cognitive differences?