The Futile Arguments Thread

[Stevil]

There is a clear difference between a denial of a metaphysical belief and a denial of God/s
The Atheist does not hold onto a "belief in God", they may or may not hold onto a "belief that there are no Gods". Most Atheists have no belief either way, simply waiting for some proof before a concrete position is made.

It seems that the term ‘Atheism’ is becoming more and more complex.
It’s a rejection of God based on the person’s interpretation of reality, a belief.
It certainly is not the agnostic view.

So, are you going to write to Britannica Online Encyclopedia and ask then to rewrite the definition so that it matches yours?

BTW I have been waiting a very long time for you to respond to your own thread http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6801 You started the thread and I obliged by asking some questions, I have been very disappointed in you thus far.

My apologies, but a few days later I thought about it.
Do I have a chance to defend my point of view that Islam does not promote violence or intolerance on a forum full of atheists who blame religion of all the evil in the world?
Once again my apologies for letting you wait.

You obviously have a poor view of atheists. The only thing we have in common is a lack of belief in gods. We aren't anti gods. We are a set of people, many of us here don't live in muslim countries and are geniune to understand muslim people better rather than what is feed to us via the news. You have an opportunity to represent Muslim and to give us more insight with regards to normal muslim people rather than the extremes we hear about on the news. I am disappointed that you feel threatened and negative towards atheists thoughts of muslims.
I am not necessarily interested in your thoughts on your god, I have no belief in your god. I am only interested in the questions that I posted on your thread. These were not directed towards your belief in your god, but more around your thoughts on muslim culture, its place in the world and how it is representing itself on the world scene.

[Stevil]

Do atheists consider the reality they perceive to be the absolute reality?

Do Muslims consider the babblings of an illiterate peadophile to be absolute reality?

Like I said Stevil, do I have a chance? I think you gave the answer.

Look, I am not really interested in discrediting Muhhamed. I was annoyed at your blanket statement and decided to give it back to you in Muslim form.
Seems you didn't like it either.

[Davin]

It doesn't matter where you get your definition from, it is wrong. If you wanted we could have a link war and count up all the links to places that say otherewise and you can link to the places that support your argument, however at the end of the childish game we come to: If you intend to honestly discuss things with people, you let them tell you what they think, you do not define what they think for them.

I am talking about common atheism (100% no God), not about what you personally think of life Davin. I interfered in this topic on that subject, my apogolies if I was not clear.

The "100% no god" that you call common atheism is less common than the atheism I've told you it means. Now to use data:

"De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there."
One can see how many are defacto atheists by doing a quick search online, this is the first five I came across, I wouldn't expect it to be too much different:
http://www.customfighters.com/forums/showthread.php?p=819994 30% (30/100)
http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=58834 45.11% (120/266)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4555 31.71% (13/41)
http://councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4938.0 50% (11/22)
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=879332&page=11 50% (67/134)

So the most common atheist is the one I'm trying to explain it as (42.8% from 241/563), while the one you just called common is much less common (13.3% from 75/563). So, even trying to use common without first finding out which is more common, you're still wrong on this point (Also check out Tank's image for the one from RDF).

Do you have any thing from reality that would give a person a reason to accept this?

I think we have to look at nature, that there is more than our interpretation of reality. Animals perceive their world in a different way. So if they have a different outlook on reality.
Can we say that our outlook is absolute and complete?

No, and that does not answer my question. So basically you're saying the evidence from reality for your god is to look at the way things are?

Hence my invisible organ analogy. There is no reason for me to accept that you have this invisible, undectable sensory organ that allows you to talk to or sense this thing you call a god.

Like you say there is no reason to accept. But reason comes from your interpretation of reality not from the absolute, you can’t observe it, so it doesn’t exist. Organ itself is our interpretation.
I am talking about the soul. If you can’t perceive it, does it mean that it does not exist?

To answer your question, just because I can't percieve something, does not mean that is does not exist. However you still have to overcome the problem that there is no reason to accept a god as existing. This kind of reasoning also has other problems that have many times over been gone over (which is why I'm tellin you that this is old stuff that any one who has discussed their atheism for more than a week has come across), anyway, the problems: This would mean that anything one can dream up that no one has perceived should be accepted as real. There is no way to distinguish the thing you're proposing from something that doesn't exist. And if you accept that line of reasoning, you have no consistent reasoning when you deny any other concept that also has no evidence for it.

[iSok]

There is a clear difference between a denial of a metaphysical belief and a denial of God/s
The Atheist does not hold onto a "belief in God", they may or may not hold onto a "belief that there are no Gods". Most Atheists have no belief either way, simply waiting for some proof before a concrete position is made.

It seems that the term ‘Atheism’ is becoming more and more complex.
It’s a rejection of God based on the person’s interpretation of reality, a belief.
It certainly is not the agnostic view.

So, are you going to write to Britannica Online Encyclopedia and ask then to rewrite the definition so that it matches yours?

BTW I have been waiting a very long time for you to respond to your own thread http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6801 You started the thread and I obliged by asking some questions, I have been very disappointed in you thus far.

My apologies, but a few days later I thought about it.
Do I have a chance to defend my point of view that Islam does not promote violence or intolerance on a forum full of atheists who blame religion of all the evil in the world?
Once again my apologies for letting you wait.

You obviously have a poor view of atheists. The only thing we have in common is a lack of belief in gods. We aren't anti gods. We are a set of people, many of us here don't live in muslim countries and are geniune to understand muslim people better rather than what is feed to us via the news. You have an opportunity to represent Muslim and to give us more insight with regards to normal muslim people rather than the extremes we hear about on the news. I am disappointed that you feel threatened and negative towards atheists thoughts of muslims.
I am not necessarily interested in your thoughts on your god, I have no belief in your god. I am only interested in the questions that I posted on your thread. These were not directed towards your belief in your god, but more around your thoughts on muslim culture, its place in the world and how it is representing itself on the world scene.

Did you read a book written by a Muslim on Islam or the Prophet, other then the book about Muslim women from a western perspective?
If you go by all my posts I've posted here on this forum, I think you can reasonably conclude that I do not believe that the way to heaven is blowing myself up.

Let's be realistic Stevil, there is no way that I can change the way of Islam that is given to you daily by the media.
I'd be a drop of water compared to an ocean.

All the information you want Stevil is out there. Just a few clicks away if you want to learn about Islam.
The only thing I can say is that Islam is not represented by the Muslim world today, the only thing I can do is to recommend you  a few books. That is where it ends.
It's your will and choice.

It doesn't matter where you get your definition from, it is wrong. If you wanted we could have a link war and count up all the links to places that say otherewise and you can link to the places that support your argument, however at the end of the childish game we come to: If you intend to honestly discuss things with people, you let them tell you what they think, you do not define what they think for them.

I am talking about common atheism (100% no God), not about what you personally think of life Davin. I interfered in this topic on that subject, my apogolies if I was not clear.

The "100% no god" that you call common atheism is less common than the atheism I've told you it means. Now to use data:

"De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there."
One can see how many are defacto atheists by doing a quick search online, this is the first five I came across, I wouldn't expect it to be too much different:
http://www.customfighters.com/forums/showthread.php?p=819994 30% (30/100)
http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=58834 45.11% (120/266)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4555 31.71% (13/41)
http://councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4938.0 50% (11/22)
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=879332&page=11 50% (67/134)

So the most common atheist is the one I'm trying to explain it as (42.8% from 241/563), while the one you just called common is much less common (13.3% from 75/563). So, even trying to use common without first finding out which is more common, you're still wrong on this point (Also check out Tank's image for the one from RDF).

Do you have any thing from reality that would give a person a reason to accept this?

I think we have to look at nature, that there is more than our interpretation of reality. Animals perceive their world in a different way. So if they have a different outlook on reality.
Can we say that our outlook is absolute and complete?

No, and that does not answer my question. So basically you're saying the evidence from reality for your god is to look at the way things are?

Hence my invisible organ analogy. There is no reason for me to accept that you have this invisible, undectable sensory organ that allows you to talk to or sense this thing you call a god.

Like you say there is no reason to accept. But reason comes from your interpretation of reality not from the absolute, you can’t observe it, so it doesn’t exist. Organ itself is our interpretation.
I am talking about the soul. If you can’t perceive it, does it mean that it does not exist?

To answer your question, just because I can't percieve something, does not mean that is does not exist. However you still have to overcome the problem that there is no reason to accept a god as existing. This kind of reasoning also has other problems that have many times over been gone over (which is why I'm tellin you that this is old stuff that any one who has discussed their atheism for more than a week has come across), anyway, the problems: This would mean that anything one can dream up that no one has perceived should be accepted as real. There is no way to distinguish the thing you're proposing from something that doesn't exist. And if you accept that line of reasoning, you have no consistent reasoning when you deny any other concept that also has no evidence for it.

My apologies for not reading your entire post, I'm fairly tired Davin.

The only thing I wanted to make clear is that:

We don't see the absolute reality, there is a chance that there is more that is beyond our perception.
So I find the words of the person saying: 'I absolutely don't believe in God, God does not exist.' not reasonable, I hope you understand.

[Stevil]

Did you read a book written by a Muslim on Islam or the Prophet, other then the book about Muslim women from a western perspective?
If you go by all my posts I've posted here on this forum, I think you can reasonably conclude that I do not believe that the way to heaven is blowing myself up.

I have never thought this of you and have never asked that question of you. I am not sure why you are being so defensive.

Let's be realistic Stevil, there is no way that I can change the way of Islam that is given to you daily by the media.
I'd be a drop of water compared to an ocean.

I had an opportunity to talk to a real live Muslim, to get a better understanding on how Muslims might feel about the public perception of Islam and Muslims and to understand if Muslims feel that they are being misrepresented by the media. I also wanted to find out what a Muslim person would point to as a shining example of a muslim country or population so that I could see for myself (even research for myself, what that country is doing and what Islam can look like when used in the proper fashion). I am not interested in attacking you, or debunking your beliefs. I have stated some facts about Muhhamed which are not positive facts, but I have not done anything other than state those facts. I have not called him names or put him down, I have not made personal attacks on him nor you, I have not made attacks on Islam or muslim countries, I have merely stated some facts, which I know are extreme and hence I would like to know better what is the general norm rather than the extreme. I saw talking to you over the internet in an anonymous way as an opportunity to better understand. It would have been better if you had responded to my questions simply to say that you choose not to answer them rather than simply ignore. I kept checking the thread everyday for quite a while, and feel annoyed to be ignored given you started the thread to open the dialogue.

So I find the words of the person saying: 'I absolutely don't believe in God, God does not exist.' not reasonable, I hope you understand.

Although someone saying 'I absolutely don't believe in God, God does not exist.' is most likely not far from the truth, I also see this position as unreasonable. I see someone taking a scripture with no proof as being the absolute truth as unreasonable as well, there for my stance is weak Atheist.

[Whitney]

Do you think it's about time to wind this thread down and start a new one?

I think the general consensus quite some time ago was that no one claims to be able to prove that no gods exist (unless I missed someone trying to make that claim).

It's just that this thread is getting awfully long, with numerous split offs and is kinda hard to follow (especially for anyone that hasn't kept up from the start).

[iSok]

Did you read a book written by a Muslim on Islam or the Prophet, other then the book about Muslim women from a western perspective?
If you go by all my posts I've posted here on this forum, I think you can reasonably conclude that I do not believe that the way to heaven is blowing myself up.

I have never thought this of you and have never asked that question of you. I am not sure why you are being so defensive.

Let's be realistic Stevil, there is no way that I can change the way of Islam that is given to you daily by the media.
I'd be a drop of water compared to an ocean.

I had an opportunity to talk to a real live Muslim, to get a better understanding on how Muslims might feel about the public perception of Islam and Muslims and to understand if Muslims feel that they are being misrepresented by the media. I also wanted to find out what a Muslim person would point to as a shining example of a muslim country or population so that I could see for myself (even research for myself, what that country is doing and what Islam can look like when used in the proper fashion). I am not interested in attacking you, or debunking your beliefs. I have stated some facts about Muhhamed which are not positive facts, but I have not done anything other than state those facts. I have not called him names or put him down, I have not made personal attacks on him nor you, I have not made attacks on Islam or muslim countries, I have merely stated some facts, which I know are extreme and hence I would like to know better what is the general norm rather than the extreme. I saw talking to you over the internet in an anonymous way as an opportunity to better understand. It would have been better if you had responded to my questions simply to say that you choose not to answer them rather than simply ignore. I kept checking the thread everyday for quite a while, and feel annoyed to be ignored given you started the thread to open the dialogue.

So I find the words of the person saying: 'I absolutely don't believe in God, God does not exist.' not reasonable, I hope you understand.

Although someone saying 'I absolutely don't believe in God, God does not exist.' is most likely not far from the truth, I also see this position as unreasonable. I see someone taking a scripture with no proof as being the absolute truth as unreasonable as well, there for my stance is weak Atheist.

If you want to talk about Islam 'live', PM me your hotmail/yahoo/gmail/aol adress so we can talk.

[Tank]

One could always rename it "The futile arguments thread" and leave as a catch all?

[Whitney]

One could always rename it "The futile arguments thread" and leave as a catch all?

^doing

[Tank]

One could always rename it "The futile arguments thread" and leave as a catch all?

^doing

Glad to be of service ma'am  

[AnimatedDirt]

One could always rename it "The futile arguments thread" and leave as a catch all?

^doing

While my opinion is probably not of much consequence, changing the name of the thread changes the mood of the thread from here on out.  If we go about changing every thread that bucks the original question/context of the OP, we run the risk of "having" to change the thread name of 80%-90% of threads on this and any forum.  It's the nature of conversation.

[/two cents]

[DirtyLeo]

Quran - 45.13 "And He has subjected to you, as from Him, all that is in the heavens and on earth"

That means that the Universe is ordered for life. With it's laws and principles.

I love (sarcasm) this part of religion. It's all in the interpretation. For some strange reason, God never tells what he (because it is clearly a male god) really tells.

To Subject:
a : to bring under control or dominion : subjugate
b : to make (as oneself) amenable to the discipline and control of a superior

So, how on earth do you come up with the "order in the universe" interpretation with this? 45.13 "And He has subjected to you, as from Him, all that is in the heavens and on earth"

How come God is not capable enough to tell me what he really intends to tell me that I need other people to interpret his words for me? He can do anything but apparently he's not capable of speaking clearly. How strange!

I speak four languages. I checked Quran in all these languages and it says exactly what it says. Everything is at our service, which I repeat, is the typical human arrogance. We consider ourselves the owner of everything, to use and to abuse. Actually, I can even say this: Men consider themselves the owners of everything, to use and to abuse, including women unfortunately.