Ethical basis for Veganism or Vegetarianism?

[leonswan2000]

I myself am Vegan, and believe that the taking of dairy from animals, or it's life for my gain is morally unjustified in the society that I live in. I don't require the death of an animal for me to live, so I shouldn't have to have it die. And honestly after thinking this way for a while, I find meat to be especially gross (dairy too, considering most of it is bodily fluids). I consider equality to be of high morality, so I get pretty strict about this sort of thing.

Plants are just like animals.  They are alive, you eat their juices which is tantamount to bodily fluid.  Sorry it's part of being an animal.  You gotta eat.  I see a lion gut a zebra on national television and it isn't considered cruel even though the lions cubs are eating the things organs while its still alive.  At least when you get the meat its dead and it isn't coming back.  It's our nature to eat meat.  Sorry.

yah but a carrot doesnt have orgasims

[leonswan2000]

Questions for Vegetarians by will got me thinking about a question Ive had for quite awile. As atheists should we look at meat differently than religion wich advocates eating meat. Have we always been Omnivorous? Did we start to eat meat as a way to survive and there was no going back?, you know to cauliflower. Do chickens and fish count because there more of just a nervous system with feet? Would it be more ethical to eat small amounts of meat as a natural part of the food chain. Would we all look like pale people from India? I'll stop here.

[LoneMateria]

I myself am Vegan, and believe that the taking of dairy from animals, or it's life for my gain is morally unjustified in the society that I live in. I don't require the death of an animal for me to live, so I shouldn't have to have it die. And honestly after thinking this way for a while, I find meat to be especially gross (dairy too, considering most of it is bodily fluids). I consider equality to be of high morality, so I get pretty strict about this sort of thing.

Plants are just like animals.  They are alive, you eat their juices which is tantamount to bodily fluid.  Sorry it's part of being an animal.  You gotta eat.  I see a lion gut a zebra on national television and it isn't considered cruel even though the lions cubs are eating the things organs while its still alive.  At least when you get the meat its dead and it isn't coming back.  It's our nature to eat meat.  Sorry.

yah but a carrot doesnt have orgasims

I don't know that cows have orgasms either whats your point?

[Whitney]

As atheists should we look at meat differently than religion wich advocates eating meat.

Seventh Day Adventists (vegan), Buddhism (vegan), Judaism (no pigs, no shellfish), and Hinduism (no cow) promote some form of abstination from at least certain types of meat.  Eating meat isn't the creation of religions, it was something we evolved to do.  If we were not natural meat eaters we wouldn't have teeth that are specialized for meat (such as our canine teeth).

I don't think what we eat is an ethical question.  What is an ethical question is how was the food killed and does the food cause avoidable harm to the environment.  Although many vegans/vegetarians will claim you can easily live a healthy life on veggies alone but we all have differing dietary needs/resources and it will not be easily healthy for everyone (I would say most who try it).

[leonswan2000]

As atheists should we look at meat differently than religion wich advocates eating meat.

Seventh Day Adventists (vegan), Buddhism (vegan), Judaism (no pigs, no shellfish), and Hinduism (no cow) promote some form of abstination from at least certain types of meat.  Eating meat isn't the creation of religions, it was something we evolved to do.  If we were not natural meat eaters we wouldn't have teeth that are specialized for meat (such as our canine teeth).

I don't think what we eat is an ethical question.  What is an ethical question is how was the food killed and does the food cause avoidable harm to the environment.  Although many vegans/vegetarians will claim you can easily live a healthy life on veggies alone but we all have differing dietary needs/resources and it will not be easily healthy for everyone (I would say most who try it).

I didnt know that about seventh day Adventits, I guess I should have looked before I leaped. I think I was just thinking of Abahamic God [Mostly] It still seems like our teeth most resemble a herbivores and the canine are kind of left over. Like our tailbone. I know there are groups of people who can live on primarily meat (Inuit Indians) where most would have to adapt to this over a long period of time. On the other hand it seems just about any group of people could survive without meat and be just as healthy. If we eat meat only for pleasure does it matter?, I guess is what I'm asking. I'm sure it does to the cow. I know we could be a food source for dozens of animals so you could say we and they are just part of the food chain. But we dont need meat to survive. If we know the cow doesnt want to be eaten should we. You know set the cow free and if it comes back it is yours and if it doesnt.....

[karadan]

I heard a funny quote this christmas:

If we aren't supposed to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?

[Typist]

In other words, how would you feel about meat if the cruelty and environmental costs were reduced significantly or even removed? Would you still be a veggie?

Good question.  Personally, yes.   We've been vegetarian at our house for going on 40 years, and red meat just doesn't appeal to me any more.   My wife's a great vegie cook, and I'm happy with what I've got.

[bfat]

Sorry, I know I'm a little late to this conversation, but this is one of the only subjects in the world that really gets me upset.  As a middle class white person who grew up in the suburbs/country, I never really had any experience with discrimination.  But when I was 12 I decided to stop eating meat and let me tell you, I had no idea people could be so judgmental and just plain hostile about a decision that I thought was just me (as a child) being compassionate and caring toward all living things.  Much like being an atheist, some people get really really angry when you tell them you don't eat meat.  It's bizarre.

As for me, I can only think of two reasons to eat meat:

1.  It tastes good (the by far #1 reason I get from everyone who tries to convince me to eat meat, which is almost everyone), and

2.  It's convenient/built into our culture

For most people, these are good enough reasons.  I'm not trying to convince anyone to be a vegetarian (or vegan--I stopped eating dairy about 2 and a half years ago), but there is a LOT of misinformation out there, a lot of bad "facts" and a WHOLE LOT of money in agribusiness and the meat and dairy industries, which are behind the whole "got milk" ads and most of the "studies" that show how important meat and dairy are.  

I'm not a nutritionist, but I've read a lot of books on nutrition and the links between diet and health, from many different sources, and almost every single one points to a link between better health/longer life spans and vegetarianism.  Americans in particular consume too much protein (we only need about 50 grams a day max, and too much can lead to calcium deficiency, ketosis, and liver and kidney malfunction).  There are direct correlations between the introduction of meat (especially processed meat) into a population and heart disease, cancer, obesity, and other diseases.  See The China Study.  

Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets.
J Am Diet Assoc. 2009 Jun;109(7):1266-1282.

    It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

It's true that early humans ate a lot of meat, but it was wild game, which is vastly different than grain-raised cattle and pork that is eaten by most people today.  Also, these people got far more exercise and ate plenty of raw fruit and vegetables, which have most of the fiber, vitamins and minerals required to thrive.

As for the environmental factors, meat eating, and especially conventional industrial farming/feed-lot meat has a massive negative impact on the environment.  Animals raised for meat require an enormous amount of food (mostly grain) and water to raise an animal that will feed just a few people for one meal--all that grain and water used to keep the animal alive could have been used for human consumption instead.  Not to mention the methane pollution (more detrimental than CO2 and mostly produced by animals raised for food), water pollution from industrial agriculture, and deforestation of lands to grow grains to feed these animals.

And then there's the cruelty factor.  The things that are done to the animals in feed lots and slaughter houses, and the fact that they exist in a supposedly "civilized" society, is incomprehensible to me.  I don't even like to think about this part.  It's awful.  The conditions in which the animals are kept, and the antibiotics and growth hormones that are pumped into them to keep them from getting sick and to make them get bigger faster (which are then passed on to humans)... it's just so depressing and cruel and unnecessary.  All for the convenience of a tasty burger (pork chop, chicken breast, etc.)  Most people say they like animals, but do not want to think about the lives of the ones they eat.  Like many others on this board have said, I can live without taking the lives of other creatures, and so I choose to.  Especially knowing the conditions in which they live and die.  (As for the initial question posed--I still wouldn't eat meat because of the other reasons).

Sooo (and I'm sorry this is sooo looong, it's just something I really care about), pro-meat has taste and convenience, while anti-meat has health, environment, and compassion.  The way I see it, it's a no-brainer.  

And just for fun for people who think all vegans are unhealthy and waif-like (haha), here's a list of celebrity vegans (from here):

    * Alicia Silverstone
    * Alyssa Milano
    * Carrie Anne Moss
    * Casey Affleck
    * Casey Kasem
    * Daryl Hannah
    * Demi Moore
    * Elijah Wood
    * Ellen DeGeneres
    * Emily Deschanel
    * Gillian Anderson
    * Jennifer Connelly
    * Joaquin Phoenix
    * Keenan Ivory Wayens
    * Kevin Nealon
    * Mayim Bialik (Blossom)
    * Natalie Portman
    * Portia de Rossi
    * River Phoenix
    * Sandra Oh
    * Tea Leoni
    * Prince
    * Toby Maguire
    * Vanessa A. Williams
    * Weird Al Yankovic
    * Woody Harrelson
    * Zooey Deschanel

and Vegan Athletes

    * Brendan Brazier (ironman triathlete)
    * Carl Lewis (Olympic Track Star)
    * Ed Templeton (pro skateboarder)
    * George Laraque (NHL)
    * Jack LaLaine (fitness guru)
    * John Salley (former NBA player)
    * Lucy Stephens (triathlete)
    * Mac Danzig (Ultimate fighting)
    * Martina Navratilova (tennis)
    * Pat Neshek (Minnesota Twins pitcher)
    * Ronda Rousey (judo)
    * Sally Eastall (marathoner)
    * Scott Jurek (marathoner)
    * Tony Gonzalez (football)

</end diatribe>  

[Typist]

Well said bfat.   You make the case well.

If it's good enough for Weird Al Yankovic, it's good enough for me.  

[Whitney]

Do you know what annoys me...when fat (leaning towards obese) vegetarians try to convince me that vegetarianism is healthier AND when they try to claim it is healthier due to "no hormones" etc when the veggies they buy have pesticides sprayed all over them or are canned and loaded with salt.


In reality, a balanced diet including meat or not is just fine especially since the average person won't find it easy to eat a balanced diet without using some meat.  

The only reason I can think of to avoid meat like it is poison is if a person has an ethical concern about eating meat; in which case they really should be vegan rather than vegetarian to make sure that they do nothing at all that could potentially cause harm to animals (including avoiding all non-food products that utilize animals in some way).

oh, and I found this interesting....

The other reason for beef eating is, hold on, ethicalâ€"a matter of animal rights. The familiar argument for vegetarianism, articulated by Tom Regan, a philosophical founder of the modern animal-rights movement, is that it would save Babe the pig and Chicken Run's Ginger from execution. But what about Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse? asks Steven Davis, professor of animal science at Oregon State University, pointing to the number of field animals inadvertently killed during crop production and harvest. One study showed that simply mowing an alfalfa field caused a 50% reduction in the gray-tailed vole population. Mortality rates increase with each pass of the tractor to plow, plant and harvest. Rabbits, mice and pheasants, he says, are the indiscriminate "collateral damage" of row crops and the grain industry.

the whole article is actually pretty good:  http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020715/story.html

[Typist]

since the average person won't find it easy to eat a balanced diet without using some meat.

This is just a personal anecdote, not science.  

My wife has been a pure vegie for 40 years.   I'm more a 98% vegie, also 40 years.   We don't worry about a balanced diet, other than just everyday common sense.  

We're almost 60.  We challenge board members to an arm wrestling match!!    

People eat meat because they like the way it tastes, which is their right.   No need to make it complicated, imho.

[SSY]

snip

You wondered why people got annoyed at you?

[hismikeness]

We as a species have evolved past the point of having to gather and hunt our own food. Instead, we farm and domesticate. To me... those are the same.

I eat meat and vegetables equally and really don't prefer one over the other. Besides...



Hismikeness

[Will]

It's true that early humans ate a lot of meat, but it was wild game, which is vastly different than grain-raised cattle and pork that is eaten by most people today.  Also, these people got far more exercise and ate plenty of raw fruit and vegetables, which have most of the fiber, vitamins and minerals required to thrive.

There's a new diet making the rounds called the Paleolithic diet (pejoratively called the "caveman diet"), which features a diet heavy in wild game and that has no dairy or grains, which is supposed to be representative of the hunter-gatherer lifestyle humans used to live. Would this be acceptable, from an ethical/health standpoint?

As for the environmental factors, meat eating, and especially conventional industrial farming/feed-lot meat has a massive negative impact on the environment.  Animals raised for meat require an enormous amount of food (mostly grain) and water to raise an animal that will feed just a few people for one meal--all that grain and water used to keep the animal alive could have been used for human consumption instead.  Not to mention the methane pollution (more detrimental than CO2 and mostly produced by animals raised for food), water pollution from industrial agriculture, and deforestation of lands to grow grains to feed these animals.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that defends the over-processed and highly industrialized meat industry of modern industrialized nations (at least on this forum). What we've done to our food (not just meat, but much of what we consume) is horrid. Still, not everyone supports the food industrial complex. I eat locally and naturally farmed eggs and meats. My chickens lived outside, my fish came from waters that aren't overfished, and the occasional beef is grass-fed. I'm a good liberal commie pinko hippie.  

While I'm aware that meat farming is pretty much universally eco-unfriendly, there are ways of ingesting meat that do virtually no damage to the environment. Case in point, on Saturday I had organic Hog Island Oysters that were out of this world. They're farmed fresh from a renewable source with almost no environmental impact at all.

And then there's the cruelty factor.  The things that are done to the animals in feed lots and slaughter houses, and the fact that they exist in a supposedly "civilized" society, is incomprehensible to me.  I don't even like to think about this part.  It's awful.  The conditions in which the animals are kept, and the antibiotics and growth hormones that are pumped into them to keep them from getting sick and to make them get bigger faster (which are then passed on to humans)... it's just so depressing and cruel and unnecessary.  All for the convenience of a tasty burger (pork chop, chicken breast, etc.)  Most people say they like animals, but do not want to think about the lives of the ones they eat.  Like many others on this board have said, I can live without taking the lives of other creatures, and so I choose to.  Especially knowing the conditions in which they live and die.  (As for the initial question posed--I still wouldn't eat meat because of the other reasons).

I understand this, too, but getting back to my OP:

Let's say, hypothetically, as time goes on more progressive elements in government can put in place legal protections for animals and more environmentally friendly procedures and practices. Animals are fed organic, locally grown grass and seeds instead of corn, live full and happy lives, are killed in a painless and un-frightening way, and are bought at the farm by local people. In other words, how would you feel about meat if the cruelty and environmental costs were reduced significantly or even removed?

I'm asking this because I'm trying to get a better understanding of vegetarianism.

[Typist]

I'm asking this because I'm trying to get a better understanding of vegetarianism.

You're unlikely to find a single understanding of course, just as all atheists aren't the same.   Here's one more understanding to add to your list.

A spider just walked through my office.  We're in Florida, and our property, inside and out, abounds with spiders, lots and lots of them.

I could have stomped the spider.  No big ecological damage, and a quick painless death for the spider, who was going to die of something someday soon anyway.

Sometimes I do stomp spiders.   Sometimes I don't.  

When I don't it's because I'm having a rare moment of clarity, and realizing that this little decision to not stomp aids the process of helping me be not quite such a jerk, a little bit nicer person.  

When I don't stomp, I don't stomp for me.

It's all self interest, nothing to do with morality.