Ethical basis for Veganism or Vegetarianism?

[susangail]

Okay okay, I can't pass this thread up.

I'm also a vegan (as of April '09). I don't like what animals go through for my benefit, so I choose to abstain from buying/using animal products to the best of my ability. To answer the original question, I personally wouldn't eat or use animal products even if they were ethical, but that's just me. The way I see it, humans are capable of surviving without using animal products, so therefore I choose to. If animals don't need to die for me to live, then I don't see a reason to kill them unnecessarily. And again, that's just my opinion.

Plants are just like animals.  They are alive, you eat their juices which is tantamount to bodily fluid.  Sorry it's part of being an animal.  You gotta eat.  I see a lion gut a zebra on national television and it isn't considered cruel even though the lions cubs are eating the things organs while its still alive.  At least when you get the meat its dead and it isn't coming back.  It's our nature to eat meat.  Sorry.

Yes, we've got to eat. It is, as you said, part of being an animal. If I could survive without killing any living being, I would. But I can't. It would be impossible (as far as I've researched) for we as humans to live without killing plants. That's just how it is. Even fruitarians kill plants (think of the wood for houses, clothes, stepping on grass, etc). So I'm a vegan (which actually causes less plants to be killed than an omnivorous diet: "The fact is, almost all animals used for food are herbivores, and the amount of plant matter they must eat in order to produce a significant amount of edible meat is many times higher than the amount of plants used in a vegetarian diet."). I also recycle, carpool, and try to do my best not to pollute the air and the environment.
 
And as far as lions, they need meat in order to survive (Yeah, I don't like that the zebra goes through a painful death. But what can I do about that? ). We as humans don't need meat in order to survive. So I as a vegan, I take advantage of that and eschew meat and other animal products as much as I can.


And on a side-note, I as a vegan care about people as well as animals. I volunteer and I do my best to buy fair-trade and second-hand products so as not to support sweatshop labor and whatnot.

(I didn't mean to write that much. I got excited   )

[veganatheist]

As I understand it, a lot of why vegetarians are vegetarians has to do with things like the way animals are treated before and during slaughter and what effect the meat industry has on the environment. I believe I understand both of these complaints, in fact I do what I can to buy responsible, locally grown, free-range meat. I even send out for grass-fed beef when I occasionally eat it.

Let's say, hypothetically, as time goes on more progressive elements in government can put in place legal protections for animals and more environmentally friendly procedures and practices. Animals are fed organic, locally grown grass and seeds instead of corn, live full and happy lives, are killed in a painless and un-frightening way, and are bought at the farm by local people. In other words, how would you feel about meat if the cruelty and environmental costs were reduced significantly or even removed? Would you still be a veggie?

I am vegan because when I intentionally and needlessly harm another thinking, feeling creature it causes me harm, as well. It's simple compassion, without a lot of nasty denial in the way.

Humans are animals, too, right? So, what if children were fed good, healthy food and then painlessly killed and served up?

Everyone is born atheist. Similarly, we have to be taught to ignore our disgust at the slaughterhouse.

[LARA]

vegantheist wrote: So, what if children were fed good, healthy food and then painlessly killed and served up?

"Soylent green is people.  It's people!"  

(Det.  Robert Thorn, played by Charlton Heston in Soylent Green, 1973)


Sorry had to be done.


(edited, first quote attributed wrongly to susangail instead of vegantheist, with apologies)

[susangail]

^ Umm, I didn't say that...

[Will]

Welcome to the forum.

I am vegan because when I intentionally and needlessly harm another thinking, feeling creature it causes me harm, as well. It's simple compassion, without a lot of nasty denial in the way.

Humans are animals, too, right? So, what if children were fed good, healthy food and then painlessly killed and served up?

Everyone is born atheist. Similarly, we have to be taught to ignore our disgust at the slaughterhouse.

Humans have been ingesting meat for tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years, depending on what point you consider human human. We evolved as hunter-gatherers, and part of being such an organism means we hunt for the meat of other organisms. Early humans did not seem to have an innate disgust at the slaughter of animals to eat, which suggests to me that, as a species, no such universal disgust can be demonstrated. At the most, perhaps some people have that disgust and others do not.

While I love animals dearly, should the situation require it I could see myself slaughtering an animal for sustenance could I utilize a method which I deem truly humane. If I were living quite far from civilization and did not have enough to eat from plant-life, I could see myself using carbon dioxide to allow the animal to painlessly pass out before killing it. I'd never want to shoot at an animal or otherwise use a method which could terrify or cause physical pain because my compassion would not allow such a thing.

[onlinej]

As far as I've read so far on this thread, susangail seems a wonderful person and veganatheist seems a person but I don't agree with the whole vegetarian eating lifestyle. I mean, if you are a vagan... go for it, but I don't think that's a good thing to adopt by anybody/everybody.

Here's my 3 cents:
- it's admirable how some of the native tribes had such a deep respect for nature that they would be greatful for their food, but we as a species can survive like that. We can't feed 6 billion people with the resources of our planet. We need industry, even tho I agree we should start thinking and acting more sustainable. Denmark, if I'm not mistaking, can be a case study considering forest. They plant more trees than they cut down every year, and the company that does the cutting plants the trees. Ok, back to what we eat and why
- second, eating meat -> bigger brains -> survival (of course on a very large time line) I say we should stay on course.

Also really interesting point about cannibalism by vaganatheist. I think we left cannibalism behind when we saw it wasn't practical for the species as a whole to eat one another. I don't know of any animal species that does that. (except some spider)

[Whitney]

intentionally and needlessly harm another thinking, feeling creature it causes me harm, as well.

Humans are omnivorous, and we need meat if we want to have quality nutrition without having to be slaves to a tedious diet.  So, it's not needless.

Humans are animals, too, right? So, what if children were fed good, healthy food and then painlessly killed and served up?

Most animals tend not to eat their own species AND humans already don't eat animals that remind us of children (ie cute things).

So, why do you draw the link at thinking creatures and not all living things?  I'm assuming it is because you understand there is a need for your own survival...this is the same reason omnivores (people who eat normally) draw the line at things that remind them of kids; we have to eat but there really isn't a good dividing line since everything we eat is alive (or was).

[susangail]

Humans are omnivorous, and we need meat if we want to have quality nutrition without having to be slaves to a tedious diet.  So, it's not needless.

I disagree. I don't eat meat or any other animal products and I'm healthy (my doctor and dietician confirmed my health.) I'm not saying you can't be healthy with an omnivorous diet, I'm just saying you can have 'quality nutrition' with a vegetarian/vegan (veg*n) diet. Yes, veg*nism seems like a tedious diet, but it isn't always. It's an adjustment at first, but it's not hard after the first week or two (in my experience). Personally, I've been a vegan since April and I don't feel like a slave to my diet.

Sure, veg*nsim might not be for everyone. I'm certainly not saying it's the only "right" way to eat. I just feel that if I can live a healthy, happy life without eating animals or their by-products, I will.

So, why do you draw the link at thinking creatures and not all living things?  I'm assuming it is because you understand there is a need for your own survival...this is the same reason omnivores (people who eat normally) draw the line at things that remind them of kids; we have to eat but there really isn't a good dividing line since everything we eat is alive (or was).

I can't speak for veganatheist, but I draw the line at thinking creatures and not all living things because, as you said, I understand that I need to eat to survive. That being said, I choose to do my best to limit suffering as much as I can. What animals endure in slaughterhouses is horrific and I personally don't wish to buy the products of that suffering. Thus, I'm a vegan. I understand that I cannot live without killing some sort of living thing (if I could reasonably, I would), so I accept it and move on with my life.

[susangail]

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[Mike M.]

Athough it is possible to be healthy and be a vegetarian, It seems it would be hard for a person to be a vegetarian and truly prosper.  Think about it, every vegetarian I've seen seems skinny and frail.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, but meat is essential for muscle growth and other nutrition.  Me personally thinking that every human should strive to physical perfection to the best of their abilities surely makes me biased here, but why would you want to starve yourself of such a valuable food/nutrition source that can benefit you in so many ways?

Also, from an environmental point of view, livestock take up far less space than plant growing farms. Sooooo by eating exclusively vegetables, you would be supporting the narrowing of an ecosystem (not allowing diversity by allowing only a couple types of plants on a huge space of land).

And as far as hunting goes, I wouldn't have a problem with it.  I've shot shotgun for sport, and want to get into bowhunting in the future.  But I'm a political conservative so I think we should have the right to our guns and such  

Thanks,
Mike M.

[susangail]

I'm not trying to be a jerk Mike, but I have to disagree.

Athough it is possible to be healthy and be a vegetarian, It seems it would be hard for a person to be a vegetarian and truly prosper.  Think about it, every vegetarian I've seen seems skinny and frail.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, but meat is essential for muscle growth and other nutrition.  Me personally thinking that every human should strive to physical perfection to the best of their abilities surely makes me biased here, but why would you want to starve yourself of such a valuable food/nutrition source that can benefit you in so many ways?

The idea that vegetarians are "skinny and frail" is a stereotypical myth. Sure, some are, but it probably has more to do with a personal health issue than their vegetarian diet. Every vegetarian or vegan I know seems perfectly healthy to me (though of course I'm no doctor). You don't need meat to grow muscle, you need protein. And there are many sources to get protein from other than animal flesh. Soy, nuts, seeds, beans and other legumes are all good sources of protein. I haven't eaten meat in years and I have never had a protein (or B12) issue. I've seen a dietician and have been assured that I'm healthy.

I completely agree with you that humans should "strive to physical perfection to the best of their abilities", but, IMO, a person doesn't need meat in order to do that. I live off veggies, grains, legumes, nuts, and seeds (I can't eat fruit due to a medical condition), and I am not lacking in nutrients (I have blood tests every six months due to another medical condition). I "starve myself" of meat because I don't need it to live a healthy life.

Also, from an environmental point of view, livestock take up far less space than plant growing farms. Sooooo by eating exclusively vegetables, you would be supporting the narrowing of an ecosystem (not allowing diversity by allowing only a couple types of plants on a huge space of land).

And from an environmental point of view, raising livestock for slaughter is actually more harmful to the environment than growing crops. Some people actually go vegetarian/vegan specifically to help the environment. Some good links here,  here, and here.

[Mike M.]

I do see where you are coming from susangail.  I do know that meats aren't the only source of protein, hell, soybeans have a buttload of protein crammed into them!  Although I guess I'm not one to talk about proper nutrition -- I'v eaten 500 calories in the last two days because Ive had to cut for a wrestling tournamet.  I would go more in depth about my points, but I'm really quite tired.  To summarize, though, I don't have any problem with vegetarins, if you are, good for you, if not, wanna go grab a burger?  I just don't see the overall point of being a vegetarian I suppose.

[susangail]

I understand your point too Mike. I just can't help myself when I see stereotypes like the skinny and frail one  .

Good luck at your wrestling tournament!

[Ihateyoumike]

As far as I'm concerned... Vegetables are what FOOD eats.

[susangail]

Besides... god created the food chain so that I may reside at the top.  

Finally, someone said it!