Change our minds about the existence of God?

[Chandler M Bing]

A ridiculous request, since I don't believe that any of the many tens of thousands of deity concept exist.

Do you know any other languages?

[hackenslash]

Au contraire, it is not only well considered, it is the crux of the preeminent cosmological theory of our time.  It should be understood that Big Bang models predict a pre-existant agent which gave rise to nature.

Err, no, and you clearly don't know anything about cosmology. The Big Bang model says absolutely nothing about anything before the Planck time, which is not the beginning. Indeed, it can say nothing about before that time, because to do so requires a unification of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, which has not yet been achieved.

The first natural activity from this perspective was the appearance and violent expansion of the singularity.

Bzzzzzzzzzzz. Thank you for playing. The singularity has not been established, and indeed the above indicates that you don't actually understand what a singularity is. It is certainly possible that the singularity is a point-like region, but in reality what a singularity is is an event at which our theories yield only infinities as results. In other words, the proper scientific definition of a singularity is a point at which our theories break and become useless.

Without such an agent the theory must assert that without cause or opportunity something came from nothing at all.

Wrong again. Aside from any other considerations, the entire idea of 'nothing' has been falisified as a concept and demonstrated to be impossible by the Uncertainty Principle.

Even if this was the prevailing idea, it would still by necessity demand that the first activity or behaviour was an unnatural sort.  

I epect you to support that statement with something other than blind assertion if you wish to be taken seriously.

Logical necessity demands that "The existence of that which, not of nature, is nature's author?" is a true statement.

Again, you merely assert this. What is your justification for doing so?

And uh...What happened to #5?   You know where you say that despite the staggering improbability of such an occurance it could happen by chance alone?  

But thats lunacy isnt it?  We would rather believe first that  the Flash did it, or maybe Quicksilver, or the vampires from Cirque Du Freak while they were flitting...But we would all absolutely reject randomness as the explanation. It is absurd.

Define 'random'.

Tell that to the universe.  Despite the seeming contradicton and vulgarity of the notion, the universe may not behave in a manner which is consistent with a any limited set of logical imperatives.

And yet logical absolutes are absolute, and no violation of them can be found.

Our inability to assess the conditions which caused the springing forth of the Universe does nothing to change the fact that it is here.  If natural process came with the Universe then there is only one possible way to look at this...If Gravity,electromagnetism and the strong and weak nuclear forces didn't do it...and there was no time or material...What else do you have to work with?

Define 'universe', because I have a sneaking suspicion that you have no idea of what actually constitutes the universe. It certainly can't be defined as 'that which arose from the big bang'.

I am not leaping all the way into saying it must be God...Lets start with saying it could not be Nature-meaning physical processes of the classical sort..

Why not? What justification do you have for such sweeping assertions, other than in support of your preposterous celestial peeping-tom?

[hackenslash]

A small smattering of a couple, but I'm not exactly proficient in any other than English. My understanding of English, though, constitutes a serious dedication to linguistic excellence.

[Chandler M Bing]

A small smattering of a couple, but I'm not exactly proficient in any other than English. My understanding of English, though, constitutes a serious dedication to linguistic excellence.

Mine constitutes a lighthearted casual effort at linguistic adequacy. Bada boom.

[hackenslash]

I like this one. Can we keep him?

[Chandler M Bing]

I like this one. Can we keep him? :eek:

[Whirling Moat]

Peace...

Err, no, and you clearly don't know anything about cosmology. The Big Bang model says absolutely nothing about anything before the Planck time, which is not the beginning. Indeed, it can say nothing about before that time, because to do so requires a unification of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, which has not yet been achieved.

Okay...I hate when Message Board discussions get to this point of having to go to other sites to prove people wrong but here we go..If this discussion turns to a battle of links..that would be unfortunate..

But since you say this "The Big Bang model says absolutely nothing about anything before the Planck time" ...I went to the second site on :crazy:


 

epect you to support that statement with something other than blind assertion if you wish to be taken seriously.

No...It is you who will not be taken seriously...

Define 'random.'

It is sorta like the past tense of running from dumbness...

Define 'universe', because I have a sneaking suspicion that you have no idea of what actually constitutes the universe. It certainly can't be defined as 'that which arose from the big bang'.

No.

Why not? What justification do you have for such sweeping assertions, other than in support of your preposterous celestial peeping-tom?

I bet you got that from somebody else....




Whirling Moat

[Ihateyoumike]

I like this one. Can we keep him? :eek:

They're pretty comparable to cute furry little kittens. So adorable, and not worth much, but oh so fun to punt across the room when they get annoying while playing with your socks  

[hackenslash]

Okay...I hate when Message Board discussions get to this point of having to go to other sites to prove people wrong

Can't wait till you begin to prove me wrong. That will be a joyous day indeed, but this day is not that day.

but here we go..If this discussion turns to a battle of links..that would be unfortunate..

It may be unfortunate, but you will have to work very hard to support your nonsense here, as this is one of my areas of special interest, and I can promise you that I know a good deal more about it than you do.

But since you say this "The Big Bang model says absolutely nothing about anything before the Planck time" ...I went to the second site on :crazy:

And what is the implication of this? Is this the usual cheap ad hominem tactic so beloved of supernaturalists that have had their woeful lack of understanding of scientific principles exposed for all to see?

No...It is you who will not be taken seriously...

Oh, really?

It is sorta like the past tense of running from dumbness...

Ah, so it is the ad hominem, then, rather than actually addressing the valid science or the requests for clarification of your position. I take it then that you do not possess a rigorous definition of 'random'?

No.

My, what a brilliant riposte! I wish I could construct such excellent rebuttals to arguments as you have here.

I bet you got that from somebody else....[sic]

Nope. All my own work. I have many more descriptions of cosmic curtain-twitchers as well.

Now, do you actually have anything of substance to present?

[Velma]

Not really sure what it would take.  However, clear, unambiguous writing in the sky about what this supposed god wants would be a start - but only a start.   Anyway, if this being does exist, he/she/it knows exactly what it would take to convince me, and everyone else.

[Whirling Moat]

Peace...

They're pretty comparable to cute furry little kittens. So adorable, and not worth much, but oh so fun to punt across the room when they get annoying while playing with your socks

Atheists punt kittens and it is okay....(Note to self)

Seriously, while most atheist probably believe that the evidence would have to be very compelling, I think something very basic would do the trick such as a voice coming from the clouds or a theophany in the house...I think a few would fold by receiving a message in Alphabet cereal which read " I am God and I exist"  Even while it is completely possible that the letters were arranged that way by chance.  

Atheism is the ultimate rebellion from authority and as such it may seem kinda hip...However in the end, when our last moments are upon us I bet we all hope for something more than an eternity of nonexistence and the absolute annihilation of consciousness.  

Whirling Moat

[Ihateyoumike]

Atheists punt kittens and it is okay....(Note to self)

We also eat babies. I thought this was common knowledge?

[elliebean]

Atheism is the ultimate rebellion from authority and as such it may seem kinda hip...

That's what drew me in; I wasn't "hip" enough.  :pop:

[Whirling Moat]

Peace....

You're on.

So let me get this straight...You are okay with never being touched again, never being warm again, never having sight, or an interestng thought..Never knowing love again..Never satisfying thirst again, or sensing the beating of your own heart, knowing that you will ultimately be forgotten and that all remembrance of you will be  lost in the oblivion of those things which will never be retrieved ...Never seeing another child, or trees, never enjoying another sunrise, or light, music, colors, the aroma of the ocean...A good book, or the excitement of learning? Never having your questions answered..  No more you..Forever...Nothing.  

You are cool with that?  When the time comes will you be prepared to say goodbye to so much?



Whirling Moat

[McQ]

Peace....

You're on.

So let me get this straight...You are okay with never being touched again, never being warm again, never having sight, or an interestng thought..Never knowing love again..Never satisfying thirst again, or sensing the beating of your own heart, knowing that you will ultimately be forgotten and that all remembrance of you will be  lost in the oblivion of those things which will never be retrieved ...Never seeing another child, or trees, never enjoying another sunrise, or light, music, colors, the aroma of the ocean...A good book, or the excitement of learning? Never having your questions answered..  No more you..Forever...Nothing.  

You are cool with that?  When the time comes will you be prepared to say goodbye to so much?
Whirling Moat

Of course. That's life, that's death. No fairy tales, no fictions. Being dead will essentially be the same as it was before I was born, or conceived. Why is that so scary, or difficult to handle?

Every living thing ceases to live at some point. Whether we are prepared for it or not, and whether we like it or not is completely irrelevant. It's just the way it is.

Thinking any other way about it is just a way to lie to one's self in order to keep from being frightened. But it's still lying.