Agnostic Theist?

[humblesmurph]

I saw a member list this as his world view.  I searched the forums, but I didn't get much.  I'm sure many of you have explained this many times.  I have looked up agnostic theist on Wiki, but I'm still confused.  If somebody could dumb it down for me it would be greatly appreciated.

[joeactor]

Gnostic/Agnostic refer to Knowledge.

Theist/Atheist refer to Belief.

Howzat?
JoeActor

[humblesmurph]

thanks for the diagram.  I guess I don't get how one could be gnostic about the existence or lack of existence of God.  I don't know of any strong atheists. All of the theists I know make a leap of faith.

 Aren't we all agnostics when it comes to god?   Without the independent check to know if a belief is justified, how could that belief be counted as knowledge?  How would one go about independently proving or disproving the god hypothesis? Even if you are sure you saw god, you couldn't prove it...or could you?  Wouldn't one have to search every corner of existence to say that they know there is no god?

[Kylyssa]

thanks for the diagram.  I guess I don't get how one could be gnostic about the existence or lack of existence of God.  I don't know of any strong atheists. All of the theists I know make a leap of faith.

 Aren't we all agnostics when it comes to god?   Without the independent check to know if a belief is justified, how could that belief be counted as knowledge?  How would one go about independently proving or disproving the god hypothesis? Even if you are sure you saw god, you couldn't prove it...or could you?  Wouldn't one have to search every corner of existence to say that they know there is no god?

I'd say that the gnostic/agnostic label applies to what the person believes to be true as opposed to some objective standard of what is true or not true.

[humblesmurph]

thanks for the diagram.  I guess I don't get how one could be gnostic about the existence or lack of existence of God.  I don't know of any strong atheists. All of the theists I know make a leap of faith.

 Aren't we all agnostics when it comes to god?   Without the independent check to know if a belief is justified, how could that belief be counted as knowledge?  How would one go about independently proving or disproving the god hypothesis? Even if you are sure you saw god, you couldn't prove it...or could you?  Wouldn't one have to search every corner of existence to say that they know there is no god?

I'd say that the gnostic/agnostic label applies to what the person believes to be true as opposed to some objective standard of what is true or not true.

1 agnostic=i don't know

2 gnostic= I do know

3 theist= I believe in god

4 atheist= I do not believe

5 agnostic theist= I believe in god, but I don't know that there is a god.

6 gnostic theist = I know there is a god. (where's the proof?)

7 agnostic atheist = I don't believe in god but I don't know

8 gnostic theist = I know there is no god (where's the proof?)

5 and 6 seem like the exact same thing to me.

7and 8 are identical as well in my view for the same reason of course.  Without independently verifiable proof, a belief is just a belief no?

[mikex]

I saw a member list this as his world view.  I searched the forums, but I didn't get much.  I'm sure many of you have explained this many times.  I have looked up agnostic theist on Wiki, but I'm still confused.  If somebody could dumb it down for me it would be greatly appreciated.

Only thing I'll add at this point is that an agnostic atheist holds a rational position and an agnostic theist doesn't.

Agnostic atheist -

"I don't have any specific knowledge as to whether a god exists, so based on that lack of knowledge, I don't believe in a god."

Agnostic theist -

"I don't have any specific knowledge as to whether a god exists, but nevertheless, I choose to belief in one anyway."

[pinkocommie]

This is my take on it, but I am by no means an expert.

1 agnostic= i don't know

2 gnostic= I do know

3 theist= I believe in god

4 atheist= I do not believe

5 agnostic theist= I'm not sure, but I think there probably is a god

6 gnostic theist = I know there is a god.

7 agnostic atheist = I'm not sure, but I think there probably isn't a god

8 gnostic theist = I know there is no god

[joeactor]

5 agnostic theist= I believe in god, but I don't know that there is a god.

... on the Theist side, "Gnostic" or "Agnostic" can also have to do with knowledge about god.

As in, "he lives on Mt. Olympus and hurls lightning bolts" or "his human incarnation and son is Jesus, who died for our sins".

So, "Agnostic Theist" can also mean:

I believe there is a god, but I claim no knowledge about god (ie. I do not define god).

[Thumpalumpacus]

And an agnostic atheist can simply say, "I cannot produce evidence for or against god, but I have no faith at all."

[Tank]

 Don't mind me I'm just learning about this.

[humblesmurph]

5 agnostic theist= I believe in god, but I don't know that there is a god.

... on the Theist side, "Gnostic" or "Agnostic" can also have to do with knowledge about god.

As in, "he lives on Mt. Olympus and hurls lightning bolts" or "his human incarnation and son is Jesus, who died for our sins".

So, "Agnostic Theist" can also mean:

I believe there is a god, but I claim no knowledge about god (ie. I do not define god).

Well that's two different things. I hope you see why I'm confused.  The theist part is about existence, the agnostic part is about your opinion about the nature of the thing that you believe to exist--neither has anything to do with knowledge.

agnostic theist=You believe god exists, you have no beliefs about it's nature. Do I have that right?   does that mean...

gnostic theist= You believe god exists, and you hold beliefs with regard to it's nature.  

Typically when one says they are agnostic, they are referring to agnosticism of god's existence, not it's nature...so I thought. However, when combined with "theist", the agnostic part no longer applies to existence, but rather the nature of the god? Not an argument, It's a question.  I am not saying that anybody is wrong, I just think there is something quite simple that I can't see. I know I'm not crazy, is anybody here schooled in Epistemology?  I skipped that course. Let me try the same logic with atheism:

agnostic atheist =  I don't believe in god, and I don't have an opinion on it's nature

gnostic atheist =I don't believe in god and I have an opinion on its nature.

online dictionary---agnostic : a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2 : a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>

You see why I'm confused yet?  Saying that you are agnostic is either a claim about whether something is knowable(1) or an inability to make up one's mind (2).  Saying you are a theist or an atheist is taking a stand on the existence of god.  Either you believe or you don't.  If you are not sure of god's existence, you don't believe.  If you are unsure of the nature, of god, that says nothing about whether it's nature is knowable, just that you don't know.

[Thumpalumpacus]

My brand of agnostic atheism is: we don't not know if there is a god or not, but I see no reason to give the thought any credence, as it lacks evidence and I lack faith.

[humblesmurph]

This is my take on it, but I am by no means an expert.

1 agnostic= i don't know

2 gnostic= I do know

3 theist= I believe in god

4 atheist= I do not believe

5 agnostic theist= I'm not sure, but I think there probably is a god

6 gnostic theist = I know there is a god.

7 agnostic atheist = I'm not sure, but I think there probably isn't a god

8 gnostic theist = I know there is no god

6 is just a trumped up 5 with a lie added to it.

I can say I know the sun isn't coming up tomorrow, and come tomorrow morning I will in all likelihood be proven wrong.  I can say I know anything, for it to count as knowledge, it must be true. Tomorrow, when the sun comes up, I'll have to admit, no matter how certain I was at the time, that I did not in fact know that the sun was not going to come up.

 There are no gnostic theists. Knowledge isn't a strong opinion or belief that you are certain--which is what (6) is. If it can't hold up to independent proof you don't know it.   Likewise, there are no gnostic theists.

If they don't exist, why are there names for them. It seems joeactor's picture has 2 too many sections.

[humblesmurph]

My brand of agnostic atheism is: we don't not know if there is a god or not, but I see no reason to give the thought any credence, as it lacks evidence and I lack faith.

I would say that isn't your brand of agnostic atheism, it's just plain atheism, everybody's atheism.  What atheist  knows that there is no god?  What atheist says that they have evidence of god? What atheist claims to have faith in god? It seems we are making distinctions that need not be made.  Saying you are an agnostic atheist is like saying you are a human primate.  All humans are primates, why even mention it?

Some "agnostic atheists" make sound arguments that god's existence is highly unlikely, I buy that. However, unless she has searched all of existence, the gnostic atheist is just a dirty liar who deserves a ruler across the wrists

[joeactor]

humblesmurph: Please use a more civil tone in your replies, and refrain from any name-calling.  Consider this a warning.

You began this thread asking for other people's views on the topic.
However, you seem unwilling or unable to entertain the possibility that others may see the world differently than you do.

I get it.  You don't thing that "Gnostic" is a possibility.
That's fine.  For you.

Others disagree.

After all, you seem pretty Gnostic in your belief about being "Gnostic", don't you?

Those who say that they know god exists, and optionally define god, are "Gnostic".
Those who say that they know god does not exist are also "Gnostic".
Those who say they don't know for certain if god exists, or does not exist, are "Agnostic".

Period.  End of story.

Can you at least agree on the definitions for "Theist" and "Atheist"?