Are Atheists More Religious Now?

[Edward the Theist]

I'm new here, so I really don't know if theists are even welcome. Most atheist forums say theists are welcome, presumably to look open-minded, but then berate and insult theists until they leave or get pissed off and banned. I don't know if this is one of those groups, but I'm hoping it's not. One way to find out, I suppose, is to ask this question: Do you feel that modern atheism is becoming more religious than it was in the past?

The reason I ask is because I've been into forums like this for the last sixteen years, and it seems way back when atheists were more philosophical and willing to debate. Now I find more and more that they are extremely close-minded, scared of debate, blindly follow leaders like Richard Dawkins, request donations, and stick together very strongly--like the early Christians.

So, what do you think? I'm not trying to start a fight and I'm not trolling for an argument. I really have noticed this trend, and I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed it.

Maybe atheists just got sick of looking at megachurces and decided it's time for their piece of the pie. Maybe a lot of atheist leaders came to realize that you can take the god out of the religious, but you can never quite remove the propensity for religion--and the religious come pre-trained to give money.

Like I said, I'm not looking to fight, and if I'm wrong, if my observation is off, I can accept that.

[SSY]

Well, this forum is certainly open to theists, we have a theist mod in fact, as along as you follow the rules, everyone here is welcome.

Having said that, the tone of your post does not come across very well to me, your opening posts on a new forum rarely go down well if you launch into a spiel about how close minded they are likely to be. For someone who claims to want to avoid conflict, you have a funny way of going about it.

As to your actual question, I do not recognise the characteristics you mention, we love a good debate here, ratskep also seems to be interesting, though I visit but occasionally. Perhaps one could come away from reading a forum with your impression if they see an atheist dismissing an argument for the umpteenth time, for example, Pascal's Wager has been debunked here so many times, few of us have the patience for it any more.

I also note  theme in your posts common to many Christians who enjoy apologetics; trying to equate (bring down to the level of, if you like) atheism with Christianity, the offhand reference to megachurches, the characterisation of behaviour as that typical of early Christians (as if the latterday ones had changed). It seems like an attempt to undermine rationality, without making an argument at all.

Edit, Ah, I see you blog about us, and seemingly attempt to get yourself banned from forums, how interesting.

Perhaps a mod could do an IP check? I seem to remember having someone on here before, who consistently crowed about getting banned, and then broke a load of rules in order to bring it about, have they had a relapse?

[Davin]

I agree with SSY here, and add that starting off with a baseless assertion is likely to only get responses of "that's not the way I am."

But welcome to the forums, I hope you have a good time.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Well, evangelical atheists bug me, but so do theists who go to atheist sites as if we gather there for their preaching convenience.

I won't "berate" or "insult" you, nor will most here, I don't think.  I'm still pretty new here, and I find this place pretty laid-back, for the most part.

[Recusant]

I'm new here, so I really don't know if theists are even welcome. Most atheist forums say theists are welcome, presumably to look open-minded, but then berate and insult theists until they leave or get pissed off and banned.

Yes, there are places like that, and I've never bothered to join one.  There have been theists, atheists and agnostics banned from this forum, so I don't think the management discriminates based on worldview but on behavioral grounds.  And you probably know as well as I do that one does not have to "berate and insult" a person to piss them off.  Calmly and methodically shredding a poorly constructed argument can piss somebody off just as easily.

I don't know if this is one of those groups, but I'm hoping it's not. One way to find out, I suppose, is to ask this question: Do you feel that modern atheism is becoming more religious than it was in the past?

The reason I ask is because I've been into forums like this for the last sixteen years, and it seems way back when atheists were more philosophical and willing to debate. Now I find more and more that they are extremely close-minded, scared of debate, blindly follow leaders like Richard Dawkins, request donations, and stick together very strongly--like the early Christians.

So, what do you think? I'm not trying to start a fight and I'm not trolling for an argument. I really have noticed this trend, and I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed it.

Hmm.  I think there is a tendency on the part of some atheists to follow people like Dawkins.  I also think there has been a rise in the tendency to be outspoken about atheism.

Clannishness is questionable, though I imagine there has always been an element of that in atheist organizations.  The thing is, I don't think that the majority of atheists bother to join atheist organizations, so to a certain extent there is self-selection going on:  Those who join an organization also would be those who see such a thing as valuable, and see group cohesiveness as a priority. You encounter that in any group that meets to celebrate a mutually held interest, though. Are science fiction conventions (which can be very clannish indeed) religious events?  

Atheist organizations are often support groups, but there is also a tendency for them to want to present a face to the public.  Thus they can be seen making public statements and perhaps buying advertising space.  I admire the efforts of these groups for the most part, but I tend to think that for every organization-joining outspoken atheist, there are several just quietly getting on with their lives. Obviously you don't hear from them though, so you may get a skewed view of what an atheist is.

 Asking for donations?  I haven't encountered this, but then again, I don't belong to any atheist organizations.  Is that what you're talking about?  If a group is renting a meeting space, or planning events, then how else are they supposed to raise funds?  I think this, and membership dues are a natural, expected part of any organization, be it Bridge club or International Order of Odd Fellows.  As such, not something that is a special distinction of religious organizations or churches.  

I think that the characteristics you mention are generally not specific to religion, but can be seen in any special interest organization.  I do believe that there has been a rise in the number of atheist organizations in the past ten years or so.  So the typical behaviors of people in organizations have also become more noticeable in the atheist population.  

Maybe atheists just got sick of looking at megachurces and decided it's time for their piece of the pie. Maybe a lot of atheist leaders came to realize that you can take the god out of the religious, but you can never quite remove the propensity for religion--and the religious come pre-trained to give money.

Like I said, I'm not looking to fight, and if I'm wrong, if my observation is off, I can accept that.

Maybe it's my lack of experience with atheist organizations, but I'm not aware of a tendency on the part of "atheist leaders" to emulate the behavior of mega-church ministers.  Perhaps if you could cite an example or two, it might present a clearer case?

[Edward the Theist]

Edit, Ah, I see you blog about us, and seemingly attempt to get yourself banned from forums, how interesting.

Perhaps a mod could do an IP check? I seem to remember having someone on here before, who consistently crowed about getting banned, and then broke a load of rules in order to bring it about, have they had a relapse?

That's not true. I don't try to get banned. I really don't. I do get banned, I admit, but I'm not here to get banned. I truly want to have some discussions. I apologize that my opening post was inflamatory. I don't mean to offend, but I want to write something people are going to want to read and get involved with, too.

My blog is simply nothing, to be quite honest. When I post an original post, I post it there, too, because I never know when I'm going to get banned and if someone wants to carry on the conversation, then at least the post will not have been lost. I'll gladly remove the link from my sig if it's a problem.

[Edward the Theist]

I agree with SSY here, and add that starting off with a baseless assertion is likely to only get responses of "that's not the way I am."

But welcome to the forums, I hope you have a good time.

Thanks. And I agree, now that you mention it. I mean, no one is going to jump in and say, "Yeah, I remember the good ol' days with Nietzsche. It's all commercialized now."

So, your point is taken.

[Edward the Theist]

Well, evangelical atheists bug me, but so do theists who go to atheist sites as if we gather there for their preaching convenience.

I won't "berate" or "insult" you, nor will most here, I don't think.  I'm still pretty new here, and I find this place pretty laid-back, for the most part.

By the way, is there a way to multi-quote, because there's going to be a long list of my replies. Or is that okay?

And I appeciate you at least acknowledging the point (evangelical atheists). And I agree that theists shouldn't come into your forum to try to convert you, but if you want something other than, "Hey, Fred. Hey, Sam. How's the brain chemicals. Good. See ya round." Then you're going to have to have theists who disagree. But that's kind of my point: I'm not sure atheists really want to bother anymore with debate. Things may have changed to where all they want now is to have a community. If that's the case, then I have to quote The Who: "...here comes the new boss; same as the old boss."

[Edward the Theist]

Yes, there are places like that, and I've never bothered to join one.  There have been theists, atheists and agnostics banned from this forum, so I don't think the management discriminates based on worldview but on behavioral grounds.  And you probably know as well as I do that one does not have to "berate and insult" a person to piss them off.  Calmly and methodically shredding a poorly constructed argument can piss somebody off just as easily.

Good point.

Hmm.  I think there is a tendency on the part of some atheists to follow people like Dawkins.  I also think there has been a rise in the tendency to be outspoken about atheism.

Yes. Honestly, I think the more socialist we become (and I'm not at all opposed to that) the more atheistic we will become, and I'm not really opposed to that either.

Clannishness is questionable, though I imagine there has always been an element of that in atheist organizations.  The thing is, I don't think that the majority of atheists bother to join atheist organizations, so to a certain extent there is self-selection going on:  Those who join an organization also would be those who see such a thing as valuable, and see group cohesiveness as a priority. You encounter that in any group that meets to celebrate a mutually held interest, though. Are science fiction conventions (which can be very clannish indeed) religious events?  

No. I suppose they aren't. And you make a good point. I see the clannishness because I'm going to the clans.

 

Asking for donations?  I haven't encountered this, but then again, I don't belong to any atheist organizations.  Is that what you're talking about?  If a group is renting a meeting space, or planning events, then how else are they supposed to raise funds?  I think this, and membership dues are a natural, expected part of any organization, be it Bridge club or International Order of Odd Fellows.  As such, not something that is a special distinction of religious organizations or churches.  

That's true.

Maybe it's my lack of experience with atheist organizations, but I'm not aware of a tendency on the part of "atheist leaders" to emulate the behavior of mega-church ministers.  Perhaps if you could cite an example or two, it might present a clearer case?

Well, not yet, no. But I never saw atheist forums asking for donations before. But...having said that, most of the ones I went to were on free servers like MSN, or the .alt group, or even Amazon.com. I suppose if there's going to be a nice forum, as more of them are now, donations may be in order.

I like your style. You don't seem to get pissed off too easily, Recusant. You don't fly off the handle. I better avoid debates with you!

Seriously though, I look forward to some real discussions. Thanks for responding.

[karadan]

I find it strange when theists put so much emphasis on the non-belief in a deity. As an atheist, I simply do not believe in a divine overlord. It is that simple. I don't care that this is such a difficult concept for theists to grasp. I do care when they compare my non-belief in a deity to a religion, though. Religion actively requires its followers to believe in something through 'faith'. I'm not using faith to reject the notion of god. I'm using common sense and logic.

I am therefore one of the most non-religious people I know.

By the way, this is a great forum for cordial discussion. Prepare to have your beliefs challenged - respectfully of course.

[pinkocommie]

I'm new here, so I really don't know if theists are even welcome. Most atheist forums say theists are welcome, presumably to look open-minded, but then berate and insult theists until they leave or get pissed off and banned. I don't know if this is one of those groups, but I'm hoping it's not. One way to find out, I suppose, is to ask this question: Do you feel that modern atheism is becoming more religious than it was in the past?

I only became involved in the atheist community about two years ago, so my knowledge of what atheism was in the past for me has to do with my childhood and family and nothing to do with the greater atheist community.  I'm unsure about what you mean by "more religious".  Assuming you're referring to the growing organization of atheists, I disagree that a group that organizes itself is somehow being religious.  If that's not what you meant, then I don't know what you mean.  

The reason I ask is because I've been into forums like this for the last sixteen years, and it seems way back when atheists were more philosophical and willing to debate. Now I find more and more that they are extremely close-minded, scared of debate, blindly follow leaders like Richard Dawkins, request donations, and stick together very strongly--like the early Christians.

I think that atheists really are a very mixed group of people and there certainly are atheist groups that fit one or some or all of those things you listed, but I personally haven't noticed the rate of these kinds of behaviors increasing.  Though again, I'm essentially a noob to the atheist community.

On a side note, though I think this has been covered already, this particular forum has a donation button because Whitney runs the site out of her own pocket and some of us who use the site a lot want to kick her a few bucks now and then to chip in.  I think it's less of an atheists donating to atheists thing and more of a people supporting a website they like thing.

So, what do you think? I'm not trying to start a fight and I'm not trolling for an argument. I really have noticed this trend, and I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed it.

Maybe atheists just got sick of looking at megachurces and decided it's time for their piece of the pie. Maybe a lot of atheist leaders came to realize that you can take the god out of the religious, but you can never quite remove the propensity for religion--and the religious come pre-trained to give money.

I often hear the term "atheist leaders" but I don't know who that's supposed to mean.  Are there atheist leaders?  There are guys who write books, Dawkins being the most popular right now, but they're hardly leaders.  They do make money off of atheism, but are they not supposed to try to make the best living they can just like everyone else?  I guess I'm not sure why you are drawing these particular parallels and who you're drawing them to.

[humblesmurph]

By the way, is there a way to multi-quote, because there's going to be a long list of my replies. Or is that okay?

And I appeciate you at least acknowledging the point (evangelical atheists). And I agree that theists shouldn't come into your forum to try to convert you, but if you want something other than, "Hey, Fred. Hey, Sam. How's the brain chemicals. Good. See ya round." Then you're going to have to have theists who disagree. But that's kind of my point: I'm not sure atheists really want to bother anymore with debate. Things may have changed to where all they want now is to have a community. If that's the case, then I have to quote The Who: "...here comes the new boss; same as the old boss."

I'm not sure about the multi-quote, I haven't figured that out yet either.

I'm glad you are here.  I would think that discussions along the lines of "how can atheists and theists get along better" are potentially very fruitful.  I don't know if it's wrong to try to convert an atheist on an atheistic forum, I would assume one wouldn't be very successful at it though.  

I'll debate until you are blue in the face if you like, as long as you take my views to be my own, and not representative of any other atheists.  As for The Who quote,  an atheist couldn't be anybody's boss in the name of atheism.   We don't have a leader, a holy book, or dogma. As stated above atheism is  just the lack of belief in the god myth.

[Tank]

I'm new here, so I really don't know if theists are even welcome.

Have you ever heard the old adage 'Don't assume, ask!'. It's always a good idea to study a group dynamic before jumping in and putting your foot in your mouth, I should know as I sometimes don't follow my own advice, only human after all, and I have often had to take my foot out of my mouth. I'm told I'm a typical Sagittarius but of course I don't believe in that sort of thing    

Most atheist forums say theists are welcome, presumably to look open-minded, but then berate and insult theists until they leave or get pissed off and banned. I don't know if this is one of those groups, but I'm hoping it's not.

Well as you have already found out this isn't one of 'Most atheist forums' and that is one of the great attractions of this place for me. Living where I do the nearest I get to debate theism is to watch the TV and have the debating done for me. I joined RDF for a number of reasons one of which was the opportunity to discuss theism with theist. But it didn't turn out that way.

One way to find out, I suppose, is to ask this question: Do you feel that modern atheism is becoming more religious than it was in the past?

Yes it would be, but it wouldn't be the very best possible way.

The reason I ask is because I've been into forums like this for the last sixteen years, and it seems way back when atheists were more philosophical and willing to debate. Now I find more and more that they are extremely close-minded, scared of debate, blindly follow leaders like Richard Dawkins, request donations, and stick together very strongly--like the early Christians.

I came to find out about theism at RDF with an open mind. What I found were frankly a load of delusional preachers incapable of debate. I was astonished by the attitude of the sort of theists that rolled up at RDF. Some were nice reasonable polite people, but mostly they were agenda lead preachers. The trouble was that the nice guys/girls got caught in the flames wars with the fundie nut jobs, the YECs and Muslims that did nothing but quote chapter and verse. I was an atheist from birth, my mum attempted to indoctrinate me with the Christian meme and fortunately failed. I read The God Delusion and agreed with it general gist and joined RDF as a result, I have my own opinion of Richard Dawkins which can be found here What is your opinion of Richard Dawkins

You use the phrase 'scared of debate' I don't think this is true. I would say 'fed up with bashing oens head against a brick wall.' You can not have a debate with somebody who does not accept that their world view may be flawed, atheist or theist, and it is my personal experience is that debating the majority of theists that frequent forums is like trying to teach a pig to sing, ultimately pointless and it annoys the pig.

So, what do you think? I'm not trying to start a fight and I'm not trolling for an argument. I really have noticed this trend, and I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed it.

Battle lines have been drawn and they are firming up as time goes by. One particular trend I noticed over the first year of my time at RDF was that at the beginning theists would arrive with their world view and it would be polity debated and gently pulled apart. It came to a point where the atheist members had taken apart every argument that theists could offer. What happened then was that for new theists was that the debate part ended and they walked into a brick wall of refutation. Then a very bad thing happened, theists became termed 'chew toys'. The first step in disenfranchisement from 'normal people' they were a stereotype before they had finished there first post.

Maybe atheists just got sick of looking at megachurces and decided it's time for their piece of the pie. Maybe a lot of atheist leaders came to realize that you can take the god out of the religious, but you can never quite remove the propensity for religion--and the religious come pre-trained to give money.

That paragraph is wrong on so many levels I'm not even going to try to debunk it ATM as I have some studying to do. If it hasn't been effectively by the time I get back I may have a go.

Like I said, I'm not looking to fight, and if I'm wrong, if my observation is off, I can accept that.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

IF and for me ATM it's a big IF, based on the first prejudiced potentially-trolling sentence you posted here, you are up front about your desire for debate, then you may well have landed on your feet in a forum that will offer you a fresh opportunity to chat to other people about 'life the universe and everything' in a civil and polite manner.

This is the first paragraph of the HAF mission statement 'At HAF we know that atheists are often happy ethical people just like anyone else. It is our goal to help dissolve negative stereotypes currently held towards atheists and facilitate productive dialogue with those of differing viewpoints.'
If you're willing to get down off your high horse so will I and then we can have a cup of Tea with cream scones and chat

[Thumpalumpacus]

By the way, is there a way to multi-quote, because there's going to be a long list of my replies. Or is that okay?

Yes.  Type in "[ /quote ]" without the spaces at the end of the passage you wish to discuss, to close your quote.  When ready to move to the next passage, drop down a line, and open the next quote by typing " [ quote ]" (again, without the quotes), and repeat as needed.  You can attribute quotes to a poster  using the format "[ quote="RandomMember" ]" -- again, leave out all spaces, but remember to include the quotes around the username.  Close the attribution with the regular close-quote command.

And I appreciate you at least acknowledging the point (evangelical atheists). And I agree that theists shouldn't come into your forum to try to convert you, but if you want something other than, "Hey, Fred. Hey, Sam. How's the brain chemicals. Good. See ya round." Then you're going to have to have theists who disagree. But that's kind of my point: I'm not sure atheists really want to bother anymore with debate. Things may have changed to where all they want now is to have a community. If that's the case, then I have to quote The Who: "...here comes the new boss; same as the old boss."

Yeah, it's not disagreement that bugs me.  I really don't care what someone else believes so long as they don't try to force-feed it to me.  Now, a discussion or debate is not force-feeding, and I don't see any problem with it.  As far as other atheists go, you're wrong; there are many, many atheists who enjoy the give-and-take of vigorous debate, and not just on the topic of god's existence.

Great song quote, too.

[Davin]

By the way, is there a way to multi-quote, because there's going to be a long list of my replies. Or is that okay?

While you are in the message replying, scroll down below the [Save], [Preview] and [Submit] buttons there is a frame with older posts, each post has a |quote| button in the top right. When you click on the |quote| button that post gets quoted where ever the cursor is in the text entry box. That is how I multi-quote and it's not too bad.

If that's the case, then I have to quote The Who: "...here comes the new boss; same as the old boss."

For me it's more; "I quit my job, now I'm working for myself." Beware: this is just in equal abstraction to the quote from The Who, this doesn't mean that I get to make my own morals and go around thinking I can do whatever I want. In keeping in line with the "boss" analogy: just because I'm my own boss, doesn't mean I don't do business with anyone else.

Just removing the religious boss (Preacher, Priest, Rabbi... etc.), doesn't remove one from the world or social responsibilities. Just as if your religious boss told you to go and steal boxes of Twinkies, you'd still be responsible for your own actions because you should know that stealing is wrong in our society no matter what your boss tells you. The biggest difference is than instead of me having someone to symbolically blame for my actions (the Pastor told me to do it) or something like a holy book (the Bible said it was OK), all my actions (good, neutral and bad) are completely of my own volition with no one to blame but myself.