Mosque at Ground Zero

[humblesmurph]

The Constitution forbids the government from favoring any religion over the other.  If they own the land, it is zoned properly, and they have the necessary permits, any refusal by the government to allow the mosque would prima facie be discrimination; which is only a subtle form of persecution.

Legality aside, I've been discriminated against plenty of times, such is the reality when you live  in a white Christian nation.   I much prefer the subtle form of persecution to the real persecution (slavery) that my ancestors faced.  As far as the constitution, I didn't say build a church or a temple for Satanic worship.  If no houses of worship were allowed to be built, then there is no discrimination.

In other words, let some freedoms get trampled when some folks threaten to throw a temper tantrum?

Yes--absolutely--yes.  Don't show pictures of the Muslim prophet because somebody might die.  

Our foreign policy leaves much to be desired, true; but if you were a Muslim living in Jeddah, how do you think you would feel if this were to be shut down?

Even if I was able to know all of the facts of the matter, and had sufficient knowledge of the US constitution, I still would most likely be more concerned about my day to day life than a building in NYC.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Even if I was able to know all of the facts of the matter, and had sufficient knowledge of the US constitution, I still would most likely be more concerned about my day to day life than a building in NYC.

The point is not the building.  It's the treatment of your fellow Muslims.  Surely you can see that.

Sure, day-to-day life would dominate the thoughts of most Muslims.  But the fact that their American brethren were being treated as second-class citizens would have far-reaching ramifications in foreign policy, in that no Arab government would trust us, say, to broker a peace deal between them and Israel; none would be more likely to entertain our pleadings to rein in the price of oil; none would be more likely to work with us in dismantling terrorist networks that are, after all, largely based in those countries.

And when the citenzenry there do look up from the drudgery of their own lives, they'll see what?  An America that espouses freedom while not granting it to people of their own faith.  They will see hypocrisy.

As an American, I don't want that to be the face of my country.

[pinkocommie]

I was a staunch supporter of Everybody Draw Mohammad Day and the more I hear about this building and people making it out to be way more of a big deal than it ought to be, I am becoming a staunch supporter of this building being built.  I'm pro-freedom which includes people having the freedom to make fun of religious figures AND buy property and build places of worship that I personally think are silly or a waste of money or are even in bad taste.

One thing I think ought to be avoided at all costs is allowing fear of extremists of any kind to dictate our behavior.  Franklin said it best - Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.

[humblesmurph]

Even if I was able to know all of the facts of the matter, and had sufficient knowledge of the US constitution, I still would most likely be more concerned about my day to day life than a building in NYC.

The point is not the building.  It's the treatment of your fellow Muslims.  Surely you can see that.

Sure, day-to-day life would dominate the thoughts of most Muslims.  But the fact that their American brethren were being treated as second-class citizens would have far-reaching ramifications in foreign policy, in that no Arab government would trust us, say, to broker a peace deal between them and Israel; none would be more likely to entertain our pleadings to rein in the price of oil; none would be more likely to work with us in dismantling terrorist networks that are, after all, largely based in those countries.

And when the citenzenry there do look up from the drudgery of their own lives, they'll see what?  An America that espouses freedom while not granting it to people of their own faith.  They will see hypocrisy.

As an American, I don't want that to be the face of my country.

Neither do I.   I just don't see how any Muslim is harmed by not putting a mosque somewhere. To me it's like saying that a stripper in Maine is somehow discriminated against because a neighborhood in Texas doesn't want a strip club in close proximity to a school.

This is one mosque on one block in a city that has lots of mosques in a state with lots of mosques in a country with lots of mosques.  The US is hypocritical in many ways, I don't think that this mosque will serve to change that perception whether it's built or not.  If it is was to be blocked it would happen on some legal ground.  It wouldn't be a case of the state saying "Muslims don't deserve equal rights".  As I stated before, the city could forbid any house of worship from being built on that site and there is no longer any hypocrisy.

We can make far reaching assumptions about who might feel what where, but you and I both know for a fact that some very irrational people in NYC will be deeply hurt by this.  I'm more than a little scared of what they might do. I'm more concerned for Muslims who might be harmed in a mosque bombing than the potential feelings of Muslim in the Middle East.

[humblesmurph]

I was a staunch supporter of Everybody Draw Mohammad Day and the more I hear about this building and people making it out to be way more of a big deal than it ought to be, I am becoming a staunch supporter of this building being built.  I'm pro-freedom which includes people having the freedom to make fun of religious figures AND buy property and build places of worship that I personally think are silly or a waste of money or are even in bad taste.

One thing I think ought to be avoided at all costs is allowing fear of extremists of any kind to dictate our behavior.  Franklin said it best - Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.

"...avoided at all costs..."  Really?  Franklin was wrong.  Have you been to an airport in the last 9 years?  Of course people's actions are affected by those who could kill them.  You wouldn't dare draw Mohammad on YouTube for the world to see.  I'm not daring you to do it, I'd actually beg you not to.  If you were to do it, you'd hide your identity and whereabouts which kind of defeats the whole standing up to extremists point of it.

  I'm a staunch believer in "I don't like what you say but I'll defend your right to say it".  However, if there was a plan to build a KKK museum next to the site where Martin Luther King was shot and they found some legal way to stop it from happening, I wouldn't mind one bit.

[Tank]

Even if I was able to know all of the facts of the matter, and had sufficient knowledge of the US constitution, I still would most likely be more concerned about my day to day life than a building in NYC.

The point is not the building.  It's the treatment of your fellow Muslims.  Surely you can see that.

Sure, day-to-day life would dominate the thoughts of most Muslims.  But the fact that their American brethren were being treated as second-class citizens would have far-reaching ramifications in foreign policy, in that no Arab government would trust us, say, to broker a peace deal between them and Israel; none would be more likely to entertain our pleadings to rein in the price of oil; none would be more likely to work with us in dismantling terrorist networks that are, after all, largely based in those countries.

And when the citenzenry there do look up from the drudgery of their own lives, they'll see what?  An America that espouses freedom while not granting it to people of their own faith.  They will see hypocrisy.

As an American, I don't want that to be the face of my country.

Neither do I.   I just don't see how any Muslim is harmed by not putting a mosque somewhere. To me it's like saying that a stripper in Maine is somehow discriminated against because a neighborhood in Texas doesn't want a strip club in close proximity to a school.

This is one mosque on one block in a city that has lots of mosques in a state with lots of mosques in a country with lots of mosques.  The US is hypocritical in many ways, I don't think that this mosque will serve to change that perception whether it's built or not.  If it is was to be blocked it would happen on some legal ground.  It wouldn't be a case of the state saying "Muslims don't deserve equal rights".  As I stated before, the city could forbid any house of worship from being built on that site and there is no longer any hypocrisy.

We can make far reaching assumptions about who might feel what where, but you and I both know for a fact that some very irrational people in NYC will be deeply hurt by this.  I'm more than a little scared of what they might do. I'm more concerned for Muslims who might be harmed in a mosque bombing than the potential feelings of Muslim in the Middle East.

If it is legal to build it then they can build it, end of story. The underlined is a perfect slippery slope argument. If not this mosque/church/museum then why not the next one or the next one ore the next one?

[humblesmurph]

"If it's legal they can build it..." Tank, you and I agree on that point.  In fact it's not really a point to agree on, it's like agreeing on the sun coming up.  My point was that I could see the reasoning behind trying to fight this legally.  Conversely, if a court ruled that it was illegal, then they can't build it.  Questions of law aren't decided on the internet, on television, or in online forums.

[GAYtheist]

My thing is this. It seems to me that the people bitching and moaning the most are the hyper-religious. Let them bitch and moan, and arrest them if any harm comes to the building, or individuals entering the building. I hope it will be beautiful when it's build, I might wanna visit it some time.

[pinkocommie]

I was a staunch supporter of Everybody Draw Mohammad Day and the more I hear about this building and people making it out to be way more of a big deal than it ought to be, I am becoming a staunch supporter of this building being built.  I'm pro-freedom which includes people having the freedom to make fun of religious figures AND buy property and build places of worship that I personally think are silly or a waste of money or are even in bad taste.

One thing I think ought to be avoided at all costs is allowing fear of extremists of any kind to dictate our behavior.  Franklin said it best - Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.

"...avoided at all costs..."  Really?  Franklin was wrong.  Have you been to an airport in the last 9 years?  Of course people's actions are affected by those who could kill them.  You wouldn't dare draw Mohammad on YouTube for the world to see.  I'm not daring you to do it, I'd actually beg you not to.  If you were to do it, you'd hide your identity and whereabouts which kind of defeats the whole standing up to extremists point of it.

  I'm a staunch believer in "I don't like what you say but I'll defend your right to say it".  However, if there was a plan to build a KKK museum next to the site where Martin Luther King was shot and they found some legal way to stop it from happening, I wouldn't mind one bit.

Haha, wow - can you tell me what I would dare or not dare to do in any given hypothetical, or does your intimate knowledge of me only extend to this subject?  Point being, don't tell me what I would or wouldn't do - you don't know me well enough to make those kinds of judgments about me.  I didn't draw Mo' on youtube, but I drew a pic and posted it on my blog where my email - which is my legal name - is also posted.  I'm not interested in wasting my life being afraid of bullies, even crazy bullies with guns.  You do realize what happens when people start augmenting their behavior out of fear of terrorism, right?  More terrorism!  If it's an effective way to control people, it will gain popularity in use and I have no interest in fostering that.  Increased security at an airport is not the same as not allowing a building to be built.  If airports were shut down completely against the owner's will, your analogy in this case might be valid.

Equating a KKK museum being built next to the site where MLK was shot to a Mosque being built two blocks away from the WTC site is frankly ridiculous.  The only way, in that dense area of the city, anyone might tie a building that far away to the WTC site is if they were trying to.  So I guess that's why the question keeps being raised - what's the real reason people have an issue with this being built?

[KebertX]

Neither do I.   I just don't see how any Muslim is harmed by not putting a mosque somewhere. To me it's like saying that a stripper in Maine is somehow discriminated against because a neighborhood in Texas doesn't want a strip club in close proximity to a school.

This is one mosque on one block in a city that has lots of mosques in a state with lots of mosques in a country with lots of mosques.  The US is hypocritical in many ways, I don't think that this mosque will serve to change that perception whether it's built or not.  If it is was to be blocked it would happen on some legal ground.  It wouldn't be a case of the state saying "Muslims don't deserve equal rights".  As I stated before, the city could forbid any house of worship from being built on that site and there is no longer any hypocrisy.

We can make far reaching assumptions about who might feel what where, but you and I both know for a fact that some very irrational people in NYC will be deeply hurt by this.  I'm more than a little scared of what they might do. I'm more concerned for Muslims who might be harmed in a mosque bombing than the potential feelings of Muslim in the Middle East.

It's too late for that though. This has already gone all over the news, and Americans have expressed utter outrage and disgust towards the mosque.  NOW we're being hypocrites. We're doing it because they're Muslims. That's the only reason proximity to ground zero is an issue. That's the only reason people across the country even give a shit. They're Muslims, building a place for Muslims to congregate, and propagate Islam, and they're close to a place where anti-Islamic hate was deeply entrenched in the American mindset.

Who cares? It's just an Islamic center, right? It wouldn't matter to me either way if it were built, except now we've demonstrated an initial rejection of Islam. Now we've basically said, "NO! You can't do that, you're the people we hate! YOU'RE the ethnic group that did this to us!  Now get away, we don't want you here anymore!" Holding this mosque up any more is just wrong.

It's too late to say that we're not discriminating against them, and too late to say we're not being hypocrites. The only positive course of action relevant to this mosque is to let it get built and move on.

[KebertX]

I was a staunch supporter of Everybody Draw Mohammad Day and the more I hear about this building and people making it out to be way more of a big deal than it ought to be, I am becoming a staunch supporter of this building being built.  I'm pro-freedom which includes people having the freedom to make fun of religious figures AND buy property and build places of worship that I personally think are silly or a waste of money or are even in bad taste.

One thing I think ought to be avoided at all costs is allowing fear of extremists of any kind to dictate our behavior.  Franklin said it best - Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.

"...avoided at all costs..."  Really?  Franklin was wrong.  Have you been to an airport in the last 9 years?  Of course people's actions are affected by those who could kill them.  You wouldn't dare draw Mohammad on YouTube for the world to see.  I'm not daring you to do it, I'd actually beg you not to.  If you were to do it, you'd hide your identity and whereabouts which kind of defeats the whole standing up to extremists point of it.

  I'm a staunch believer in "I don't like what you say but I'll defend your right to say it".  However, if there was a plan to build a KKK museum next to the site where Martin Luther King was shot and they found some legal way to stop it from happening, I wouldn't mind one bit.

Lol, My friend Abdul (Muslim) didn't just draw Muhammad for "Everybody Draw Mohammad Day," he personally spread the word and got about 100+ other people to draw him too. At least 80% of the Muslims in the world are... sane.

You can't compare Islam to the KKK. The KKK is a domestic terrorist organization, Islam is a religion. Despite stereotypes, actually a peaceful religion.  I can understand how people who live in Theocratic societies in the Middle East feeling angry or frustrated with the state of the world.  I wouldn't go so far as to call it brainwashing, but when everyone in your society has the exact same beliefs and values, and you have powerful figure-heads telling you that dissent is unacceptable... It breeds anger towards us infidels.

I feel sorry for the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and anyone in the Middle East who has been convinced to harbor hate towards others by a manipulative society. That's the real injustice, when people use an otherwise good religion to purposely breed hatred in people's minds. But most Muslims don't live in the Middle East. Most Muslims are sensible people who believe in nonviolence and a simple elegant oneness of God.

The ONLY problem I see with Islam is the fact that God doesn't exist. If people are blowing themselves up in the name of Allah, or threatening people who leave the religion with violence, then they're doing it wrong.  Those are such non-Muslim things to do, and it's not fair that those behaviors should be representative of the religion. The Extremist Minority who yells the loudest is sadly the one that is heard the most.

So that's my lecture about how Islam is misunderstood. It's a really nice religion, as far as I'm concerned.  So I fully support the building of the Ground Zero Mosque. I'd be glad to see it built!

Fun Fact of the Day: The Qu'ran gives more rights to women than the Bible!

[Thumpalumpacus]

Neither do I.   I just don't see how any Muslim is harmed by not putting a mosque somewhere. To me it's like saying that a stripper in Maine is somehow discriminated against because a neighborhood in Texas doesn't want a strip club in close proximity to a school.

Your analogy fails on two levels, because, while there are not New Englanders affected by Texas law, there are Muslims who would be affected by, not a law, but by an unConstitutional act.

This is one mosque on one block in a city that has lots of mosques in a state with lots of mosques in a country with lots of mosques.  The US is hypocritical in many ways, I don't think that this mosque will serve to change that perception whether it's built or not.  If it is was to be blocked it would happen on some legal ground.  It wouldn't be a case of the state saying "Muslims don't deserve equal rights".  As I stated before, the city could forbid any house of worship from being built on that site and there is no longer any hypocrisy.

The problem with your argument is that there are no legal bars to this mosque of which I am aware.  Given that case, declaring that it isn't discrimination if we bar all religious buildings would still be wrong -- unConstitutionally so -- , because if the lot is zoned for religious use and we change the zoning because of an Islamic project, we are still violating the Establishment Clause, arguably.  That's a case that I, a layman, would feel comfortable arguing in a court.

We can make far reaching assumptions about who might feel what where, but you and I both know for a fact that some very irrational people in NYC will be deeply hurt by this.  I'm more than a little scared of what they might do. I'm more concerned for Muslims who might be harmed in a mosque bombing than the potential feelings of Muslim in the Middle East.

I am much more concerned about the integrity of our Constitution than either issue listed in this paragraph.  Denying Muslims the right to legally build mosques where they have previously been allowed would establish, as Tank has implied, a fearful precedent.  The government has no business regulating religion.

[humblesmurph]

I was a staunch supporter of Everybody Draw Mohammad Day and the more I hear about this building and people making it out to be way more of a big deal than it ought to be, I am becoming a staunch supporter of this building being built.  I'm pro-freedom which includes people having the freedom to make fun of religious figures AND buy property and build places of worship that I personally think are silly or a waste of money or are even in bad taste.

One thing I think ought to be avoided at all costs is allowing fear of extremists of any kind to dictate our behavior.  Franklin said it best - Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both.

"...avoided at all costs..."  Really?  Franklin was wrong.  Have you been to an airport in the last 9 years?  Of course people's actions are affected by those who could kill them.  You wouldn't dare draw Mohammad on YouTube for the world to see.  I'm not daring you to do it, I'd actually beg you not to.  If you were to do it, you'd hide your identity and whereabouts which kind of defeats the whole standing up to extremists point of it.

  I'm a staunch believer in "I don't like what you say but I'll defend your right to say it".  However, if there was a plan to build a KKK museum next to the site where Martin Luther King was shot and they found some legal way to stop it from happening, I wouldn't mind one bit.

Haha, wow - can you tell me what I would dare or not dare to do in any given hypothetical, or does your intimate knowledge of me only extend to this subject?  Point being, don't tell me what I would or wouldn't do - you don't know me well enough to make those kinds of judgments about me.  I didn't draw Mo' on youtube, but I drew a pic and posted it on my blog where my email - which is my legal name - is also posted.  I'm not interested in wasting my life being afraid of bullies, even crazy bullies with guns.  You do realize what happens when people start augmenting their behavior out of fear of terrorism, right?  More terrorism!  If it's an effective way to control people, it will gain popularity in use and I have no interest in fostering that.  Increased security at an airport is not the same as not allowing a building to be built.  If airports were shut down completely against the owner's will, your analogy in this case might be valid.

Equating a KKK museum being built next to the site where MLK was shot to a Mosque being built two blocks away from the WTC site is frankly ridiculous.  The only way, in that dense area of the city, anyone might tie a building that far away to the WTC site is if they were trying to.  So I guess that's why the question keeps being raised - what's the real reason people have an issue with this being built?

First, I don't know you, I think I like you though.  Second I wrote the YouTube comment because you  said "Self defense makes sense to me. Stuff defense? No. They can have it. It's just stuff" in the self defense thread.  If you aren't afraid of bullies, why are you so eager to just give them your possessions without a fight?  

Second, there is nothing ridiculous about comparing Christians or Muslims to members of the KKK.  Most members of the KKK are god fearing law abiding citizens who are just paranoid that white people are losing their stranglehold on power in America.  They are not a terrorist group.  They are about love and white pride, it says so on their website.  Just because some people in the KKK bombed some churches 40 years ago doesn't make them a terrorist group.  Obviously more people have died because of Allah and Jesus than white pride, and I wouldn't call Christians or Muslims terrorists.

Third, yes you are free to fly where you want, but now you may be subject to a strip search in order to get there.  

Fourth, I personally have no problem with the mosque.  I have also stated that the people who have a problem with it are not rational people.  Just because they aren't rational doesn't mean that they aren't real.  I don't think your opinion on the child support laws are rational, but I can understand your personal bias given the info you have shared on the board.

[humblesmurph]

Neither do I.   I just don't see how any Muslim is harmed by not putting a mosque somewhere. To me it's like saying that a stripper in Maine is somehow discriminated against because a neighborhood in Texas doesn't want a strip club in close proximity to a school.

Your analogy fails on two levels, because, while there are not New Englanders affected by Texas law, there are Muslims who would be affected by, not a law, but by an unConstitutional act.

This is one mosque on one block in a city that has lots of mosques in a state with lots of mosques in a country with lots of mosques.  The US is hypocritical in many ways, I don't think that this mosque will serve to change that perception whether it's built or not.  If it is was to be blocked it would happen on some legal ground.  It wouldn't be a case of the state saying "Muslims don't deserve equal rights".  As I stated before, the city could forbid any house of worship from being built on that site and there is no longer any hypocrisy.

The problem with your argument is that there are no legal bars to this mosque of which I am aware.  Given that case, declaring that it isn't discrimination if we bar all religious buildings would still be wrong -- unConstitutionally so -- , because if the lot is zoned for religious use and we change the zoning because of an Islamic project, we are still violating the Establishment Clause, arguably.  That's a case that I, a layman, would feel comfortable arguing in a court.

We can make far reaching assumptions about who might feel what where, but you and I both know for a fact that some very irrational people in NYC will be deeply hurt by this.  I'm more than a little scared of what they might do. I'm more concerned for Muslims who might be harmed in a mosque bombing than the potential feelings of Muslim in the Middle East.

I am much more concerned about the integrity of our Constitution than either issue listed in this paragraph.  Denying Muslims the right to legally build mosques where they have previously been allowed would establish, as Tank has implied, a fearful precedent.  The government has no business regulating religion.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the stripper analogy.  It seems obvious to me that a person in New England is much more likely to be affected by laws in texas given that they are in the same country.  You make wild assumptions about how people in the Middle East feel about one building thousands of miles away. I can't say you are wrong, how could I know, they are thousands of miles away. You have stated that you are not a lawyer, neither am I (obviously).  Is it so impossible to think that  you don' t know all of the relevant facts and New York City Codes? As I sated in an earlier post, courts are where legal decisions are made.  I never suggested denying anybody their due process of the law.

[humblesmurph]

Neither do I.   I just don't see how any Muslim is harmed by not putting a mosque somewhere. To me it's like saying that a stripper in Maine is somehow discriminated against because a neighborhood in Texas doesn't want a strip club in close proximity to a school.

This is one mosque on one block in a city that has lots of mosques in a state with lots of mosques in a country with lots of mosques.  The US is hypocritical in many ways, I don't think that this mosque will serve to change that perception whether it's built or not.  If it is was to be blocked it would happen on some legal ground.  It wouldn't be a case of the state saying "Muslims don't deserve equal rights".  As I stated before, the city could forbid any house of worship from being built on that site and there is no longer any hypocrisy.

We can make far reaching assumptions about who might feel what where, but you and I both know for a fact that some very irrational people in NYC will be deeply hurt by this.  I'm more than a little scared of what they might do. I'm more concerned for Muslims who might be harmed in a mosque bombing than the potential feelings of Muslim in the Middle East.

It's too late for that though. This has already gone all over the news, and Americans have expressed utter outrage and disgust towards the mosque.  NOW we're being hypocrites. We're doing it because they're Muslims. That's the only reason proximity to ground zero is an issue. That's the only reason people across the country even give a shit. They're Muslims, building a place for Muslims to congregate, and propagate Islam, and they're close to a place where anti-Islamic hate was deeply entrenched in the American mindset.

Who cares? It's just an Islamic center, right? It wouldn't matter to me either way if it were built, except now we've demonstrated an initial rejection of Islam. Now we've basically said, "NO! You can't do that, you're the people we hate! YOU'RE the ethnic group that did this to us!  Now get away, we don't want you here anymore!" Holding this mosque up any more is just wrong.

It's too late to say that we're not discriminating against them, and too late to say we're not being hypocrites. The only positive course of action relevant to this mosque is to let it get built and move on.

I'm saddened that some of the  US public has expressed utter outrage, I hope they are in the minority. I don't know any people who hate Muslims. I know people who discriminate against people who look like they are from the middle east, but they don't really care what direction they pray in.  I suspect it's not hatred of Islam that is at the root of all this, it's hatred of foreign brown people.  Doesn't really matter why though, this is a democracy and voices (however stupid) must be at least listened to.  My only point was that people fight when strip clubs or prisons or land fills are slotted to come to their neighborhoods (even if they might actually improve the economy), this doesn't seem any different.  

 It's not just an arbitrary decision.  If it's legal it will be built.  We are bound by our laws.