Mosque at Ground Zero

[Thumpalumpacus]

To be honest, as a Christian, I have more of a problem with the strip clubs that are closer.

I can respect this.  At least you're internally consistent, and tolerant [I hope] at the same time.

That's not to say I have a problem with strip clubs, thank you.

[epepke]

I'm all for the building of this mosque.  To me, it makes no sense to punish a majority for the sins of a few extremists.  Muslims have every right to celebrate their faith the same way a Christian or a Jew or any other person of another faith would.  To discriminate against them is not only illegal, but bigoted as well.  If anything, I'd be happy to see them take a stand and show that they don't agree with the actions of those terrorists who organized 9/11, and show Americans how true Muslims worship.

I'm all for the building of this mosque, but for exactly the opposite reason.  I do want to punish the majority of Muslims for the actions of a few extremists, and, while there isn't much of a way to do that, having a nice, inviting center near Ground Zero with a 9/11 memorial where they will have to listen to some Sufis is at least a way to annoy them into thought and might cause them to stop putting their fingers in their ears and going "lalalalala" whenever the subject of Wahabbist terrorism comes up.

Of course, I agree with the last sentence.

[Intercourseman72]

In case this hasn't already been said, the Not Mosque at Not Ground Zero used be part of something called the Cordoba Initiative. It was named that to allude to a time and place where religious persecution was absent, a variety of religious practices were abundant, and very stimulating thought was rampant throughout the city. It has absolutely nothing to do with religious triumph over america or anything else. The main benefactor of this not mosque at not ground zero says that "Islam needs to be Americanized." Yes, the Muslims conquered Cordoba, but not too long afterwards, it was conquered right back by the Christians. And I think we all know what late medieval Spain was like when run by the Christians. So... nothing to do with religious triumph and everything to do with religious coexistence and understanding of cultures.

Having said all that, I don't like it when anything is constructed or established to propagate and house institutionalized willful ignorance and attempts to manipulate people. There are 2 floors in this building plan to allow people to pray, worship, and spread their horse shit. Most of it is just a place for muslims to chum with each other and to spread the message to others that muslims in general are not jihadist crusaders (somehow basketball courts and cafes do that). It is in down town Manhattan, so they are obviously going to get a shitstorm by people with pre-determined and highly emotional opinions about it. You will have Christians saying that Muslims are trying to commandeer UHMERKA (in a yankee accent of course), Muslims saying both "no, we are actually trying to do the opposite", and "you are all islamaphobes and will be punished by allahk for daring to criticize muslims", jews saying similar things to christians, just in a New York Jewish accent, then dipshit atheists like pat condell saying unimaginable retarded bigoted things, and then atheists criticizing Western and Israeli foreign policy (which automatically makes you (me) a jew hater) and trying to get across to people that muslims aren't just pissed off because they have sand in their butt cracks and feel like flying planes into US buildings and do nothing to countries who don't invade their countries.

This so-called cultural center will do, despite its intentions, little to advance the ideals it will try to advance. What it will actually accomplish is getting everyone lay out their diametrically opposed views on religion, world events, ideals of freedom, ideals of equality, etc in a very controversial and emotional way on a conveniently laid out canvas. This is arguably the most controversial thing going on this century that isn't, of course, a catastrophe like 9/11 (although 9/11 wasn't really controversial, just catastrophic).

So, I will lay out some of my thoughts on this canvas. The muslims are by no means pacifists. If the US, Britain, Israel, and other nations had brutally invaded and terrorized a land full of Quakers, there would be no 9/11. The Koran is filled with violence just like the Bible and Torah and advocates the use of violence against the enemies of Islam just like the Bible and Torah. It's unfortunate that these are the major religions and beliefs that permeate the vast majority of the world and world leadership. Should muslims be able to put up something that symbolizes Islam almost as close to ground zero as another actual mosque as long as they comply with the zoning laws? Well, what is anyone going to do about it? What do you people who think there should be no YMMA there want to be done about it? It's like the abortion issue. What do people who think abortion is murder want to do? Prosecute the doctor or mother for some degree of homicide? The "Mosque at Ground Zero" is not about the community center there. Nothing will be done one way or another regardless of how upset the public is and it is pointless to dwell specifically on the YMMA. What I think should be addressed is how the West and Israel treat the Middle East via Tomahawk missles, Apache Helicopters, nuclear threats, tanks, imposed military dictatorships/monarchies, proxy wars, CIA coups, etc. Maybe, just maybe this is what is driving the conflict. And this is what I wish to advance with the canvas provided by this event.

And no, I am not anti-Semitic or anything of that sort. I simply detest Israel's treatment of Palestine, Lebanon, etc. It has nothing to do with Jews themselves. I think they are just as deluded and blissfully ignorant and full of shit as all religious people. However, it's pretty routine that anyone who criticizes Israel is either labeled an anti-Semite or a self-hating jew. I find this to be complete bullshit and, therefore, I hate all the jews.

[PoopShoot]

The muslims are by no means pacifists.

I can tell by this statement that you've met many Muslims in your lifetime.

If the US, Britain, Israel, and other nations had brutally invaded and terrorized a land full of Quakers, there would be no 9/11. The Koran is filled with violence just like the Bible and Torah and advocates the use of violence against the enemies of Islam just like the Bible and Torah.

Right.  And it's totally fair to gauge the Muslims by their book, but ignore the other two when referencing their respective religions.  Seriously, some guy bombs an abortion clinic and he's a lone wacko, but a few muslims hijack some planes and the whole religion is to blame?  That's a statement of both ignorance and bigotry.

What I think should be addressed is how the West and Israel treat the Middle East via Tomahawk missles, Apache Helicopters, nuclear threats, tanks, imposed military dictatorships/monarchies, proxy wars, CIA coups, etc. Maybe, just maybe this is what is driving the conflict. And this is what I wish to advance with the canvas provided by this event.

Agreed.

I find this to be complete bullshit and, therefore, I hate all the jews.

Right, hating all Jews based on the ideas of a handful of people, most of whom are actually Christian.  Makes perfect sense.

[Intercourseman72]

The muslims are by no means pacifists.

I can tell by this statement that you've met many Muslims in your lifetime.

You are partially correct here. I have met many muslims and can tell to reasonable extent that they are not pacifists (all I've met believe it's appropriate to use violence in self-defense), but onto the substantial stuff, you are correct that it is not right or logical to base all individual muslims upon what some other individual muslims do or what is said in the koran. Rather, certain passages in the Koran are extremely violent and some (a very small minority of muslims) actually go by this. I misspoke (mis-typed) while comparing Islam in general to say Quakers in general. Certainly not all muslims are non-pacifists. Many very well may be pacifists, but highly unlikely as high percentage-wise as with the Quakers. I seriously doubt that if Saudi Arabia was a theocratic society that strictly practiced the tenants of The Religious Study of Friends that 16 of the 19 hijackers would be from there. Is this ignorant or bigoted? Keep in mind that i absolutely do not want to prejudge any individual muslim or their beliefs based on what is said in the holy book or what certain individuals do as well as with any other group of people (although, if the Koran explicitly stated to try and be highly diplomatic with the enemy and never resort attacking the enemy, that fewer individual muslims would behave violently).

I find this to be complete bullshit and, therefore, I hate all the jews.

Right, hating all Jews based on the ideas of a handful of people, most of whom are actually Christian.  Makes perfect sense.

Well, I think we agree here. It makes no sense to label people as anti-Semitic because they disagree and/or detest the actions and values of Benjamin Netanyahu or Paul Wolfowitz and assume that they hate jews. It's a rather sickening epidemic of labeling people with legitimate disagreements with certain individuals as being racist or whatever. Detesting Israel killing 1300 Palestinians and being called anti-semitic is like detesting Al-Sharpton for being a manipulative charlatan and being called racist.

Btw, I find it to be complete bullshit when Noam Chomsky is considered a self-hating jew because of his analysis of Israeli/Middle Eastern political history. In case you didn't understand, I was saying that "I hate the jews" mockingly from the perspective of the people who do this sort of labeling.

[PoopShoot]

Well, I think we agree here. It makes no sense to label people as anti-Semitic because they disagree and/or detest the actions and values of Benjamin Netanyahu or Paul Wolfowitz and assume that they hate jews. It's a rather sickening epidemic of labeling people with legitimate disagreements with certain individuals as being racist or whatever. Detesting Israel killing 1300 Palestinians and being called anti-semitic is like detesting Al-Sharpton for being a manipulative charlatan and being called racist.

While I agree, it is, unfortunately, a greater problem of being white and not rolling out the red carpet for anyone not labeled "white" (even if they've the skin-tone for it).  In this context, it's more of a political ingroup/outgroup polarization tool.  The racism meme just conveniently fits the bill.

Btw, I find it to be complete bullshit when Noam Chomsky is considered a self-hating jew because of his analysis of Israeli/Middle Eastern political history.

Yeah.  I remember a youtube video of him (I think) telling a girl off for trying to silence him based solely on "my grandmother was in a concentration camp".  Give it a fucking rest.  Your grandmother was, you weren't; please stop pretending you didn't grow up a spoiled brat in an American suburb.

In case you didn't understand, I was saying that "I hate the jews" mockingly from the perspective of the people who do this sort of labeling.

Irony doesn't print well.  It's even less apparent as your status when reading a thread about pie.