Mormon-ism

[Gawen]

Freeservant inspired me. I'm not versed at all in the Book of Mormon, so I decided to do a bit of research. It has been perhaps 25 years or so since I read the BoM; I remember nothing of it. So, over the last 4-5 days I've been to numerous websites (wiki, Mormon and others) and began skimming the book itself:
http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/contents

...whereupon I came across this (amongst others). First, there are many things wrong with this book. But I'll pick up on this one section and go from there. I think it stuck on me because it is an obvious rip off of Noah's Ark.
Book of Ether: construction of 8 submersible, ocean going barges in approximately 2200 B.C.E.

What's this? Did I see someone's eyebrows shoot through the roof?

Ether 2 and 6
The Jaredite ships are built following direct instructions from God; boats in which their families and friends crossed many waters, carried seed of every kind, flocks and fowls and fish. This boat trip was successful.

Four years later, God orders the men to build similar boats "after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built" (2:16). But this time the voyage will be nearly one year's duration. These boats, similar or the same as the ones built four years earlier, are described as "...small, and they were light upon the water..." (2:16),
With structural integrity such that they were "exceeding tight," all around and entirely leak proof and air-tight ("tight like unto a dish") (2:17)
Because they were going to be "many times buried in the depths of the sea" (6:6)
By "mountain waves" (2:24) during many violent storms.

To be both light and able to carry animals along with food supplies for a year, the boat's construction would obviously have to be carefully planned and organized because the ancients knew all about physics and ship building...*smirk*.
Each boat was built with just one water tight door, with no windows or other openings. Construction of all eight boats was completed, per the Lord's personal instructions ("I have made the barges according as thou [the Lord] hast directed me." 2:18). Wonderful. God is really really smart.

But Jared's brother looked at the boats and wondered, "How will we breathe in these?" Specific quote:  "... I have made the barges as thou hast directed me. And behold, O Lord, we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish." (2:19)
After months and months of building these water tight boats from directions and instructions from God does someone wonder they are airtight??? And totally unlit inside??? "O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer?" (2:19)

LDS people very often say that the Mormon faith is unusually reasonable and sensible. The LDS minds eye of faith reads this account unfazed. But what if we read it with the minds eye of reason? It only gets better. The LDS church has always taught that the Lord of the Jaredites' Old Testament times was Jehovah, the same deity described as having created the earth, etc.

Is it reasonable that ancient men were smart enough at all to follow directions to build such boats in the first place? And only after wards are smart enough to figure that they couldn't breathe or see inside them for a year? Simply, how could shipbuilders build 8 air-tight boats without noticing that they were air-tight while constructing them? How many boats they have to build before someone figured it out? What's wrong with this scenario?

When whoever asked about not being able to see, God answered with a question: "What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces." (2:23). Ohhh...pleeeeeze. God couldn't figure this out but could build these ships? "Dashed in pieces?" Dashable windows were not invented until thousands of years later, by a different civilization on another continent. How could these people understood God's reply? Why would an omniscient being say something that would have had no meaning for these people?

Is it even remotely sensible that all of these shipbuilders, described as previously experienced in building the same boats 4 years earlier and able to carry flocks and herds waited until they were built to realize, Oh, wait! We forgot that our animals will need to breathe in here and we need to see in order to feed them and clean up.

So God tells them to make a hole and "When thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air." (2:20). Good grief. Also, "thou shalt make a hole in the top and also in the bottom." (2:20)...*shakin' me head*

One may apply all other retorts concerning Noah's Ark to these ships as well.

It is easy for one to see why Freeservant could not possibly have anything to say to us that could remotely even begin to change our views.

[EaglesFanPhila]

Mormonism is crazier than Catholism. If I'm correct, Mormons believe race mixing is punishable by death. They also believe in magic underwear. I'll stop there.

[Davin]

Mormonism is crazier than Catholism. If I'm correct, Mormons believe race mixing is punishable by death. They also believe in magic underwear. I'll stop there.

The race mixing thing is a new one, one of my friends married a white chick "in the temple", I don't see how the race mixing being punishable by death and my friend marrying out of his "race" in Mormonism can be be reconciled (since they're both still alive). However, I do know about the magic underwear.

[Thumpalumpacus]

LDS were formerly vociferously against blacks joining the church, and since they refuse to permit out-marriage, it was a de facto ban on race-mixing, so far as I remember.

[Davin]

LDS were formerly vociferously against blacks joining the church, and since they refuse to permit out-marriage, it was a de facto ban on race-mixing, so far as I remember.

I can understand formerly (the Catholic church formerly killed non-believers), but the statement I was replying to was present tense. Since they finally allowed black people to hold the priesthood, they had revised their books by removing most of the racist crap. They allow out-marriage, just not in their temples. They consider it (as I think all religions should) a legal marriage while they have their own religious marriage. I've known several Mormon and non-Mormon marriages without the Mormon getting kicked out. So because my experiences show that they do allow out-marriages I really don't understand the idea that they refuse to permit out-marriage.

I'm fine with making fun of and pointing out a religions ridiculous beliefs, but having so many idiots try to tell me I think this and that because I'm an atheist, makes me not want to be the idiot towards their beliefs. Unless they really take that belief, it goes against my grain to state they do.

[Argie]

LDS is an american made religion with very wacky claims.  In my country we see the "elders" (missionaries) with suspicion... we think they are spy or FBI trainees.

To start off the BoM, besides being a cheap piece of plagiarism, is full with anacronisms.  Just as the author of the thread has mentioned "submergibles", there are also a lot of bull´s manure all over it.  For instance horses in the american continent before the spaniards discovered and conquered the new found land; weapons made of steel in the bronce age, christian  monotheistic precolombian civilizations, civilizations with mega cities in North America that of course to this day no evidence has been found, a compass used by the israelites before the chinese invention even reached Europe...  these are just examples of the bunch of bolony that mormons belive in.

But the BoM is only the tip of the iceberg... LDS has some other books that are worth a look at, for instance the "Pearl of Great Price" which contains books that the bishops of Nicea never heard about; books like the "Book of Abraham" or the "Book of Joseph", books that the pseudoprophet Smith translated from an old piece of egiptian antique papyrus using the infalible method of sticking his face to his hat and then translating the "ancient reformed egiptian" to english... by the way egiptologists never heard about the "ancient reformed egiptian" language or hierogliphics, and the papyrus used by Smith turned out to be a funeral document so common that even minor museums have examples of it by the dozens... I always wonder if back in the days of Smith they already had LSD... maybe that´s where he came about the name of his sect.

[Gawen]

It goes to show ya that it doesn't take hundreds of years for a cult to spring up.

[none123]

Mormonism is pretty crazy, but I don't know that it's any crazier than the others. Some things make a little more sense like the trinity I can't wrap my head around, mormons believe in 3 separate, different beings. Also I figured if there really is a god, he must still be talking to someone on earth which mormons believe they have a prophet just like bible times. But what their prophets say that god tells them, really makes it look like god sure can't tell the future:

"god" told Joseph Smith to build a temple along the mormon trail somewhere (I think Missouri, I can't remember for sure though, I can look it up if I need to) and then shortly after they move further along the mormon trail and god just says to not worry about it. Then of course god told Joseph Smith to practice polygamy, and when Utah wanted to become a state, told then prophet Brigham Young not to do it anymore. What was the point in god just enacting polygamy for a few years. Not only was he told not to do it anymore, any mormon that practices polygamy is kicked out of the church, the exact opposite of what god said to do at the beginning. And then like mentioned before blacks weren't aloud to hold the priesthood. And when the civil rights movement was going on, coincidentally that is when god decided it was okay for blacks to hold the priesthood. Not before, not after, right when it was most convenient.  And so I'm sure in a few decades, the prophet then will hear from god that it's no longer cool to hate gay people.

Also the part that bugs me most in the book of mormon, is the sermon on the mount. Supposedly jesus gives a talk in Jerusalem, then after the resurrection flys to america and gives the same talk.  And in jerusalem, Matthew or whoever either memorizes the speech and rights it down after, or has to right short hand. Then it is translated to a few different languages before being translated to the king james version we have today in the 1600's.  And the one in the America's is translated directly from what is written during the speech to English directly in the 1820's and yet those speeches are exactly identical, word for word.  Surely when giving the same talk years apart, jesus would have maybe said a few words slightly different, or when 2 different people are writing the words down quickly would have gotten a few words different, or that one went through a few translations, and translated in Britain in the 1600's and the other translated directly in American English 200 years later, surely some words would be a little different. But no, the words are the exact same.

[pinkocommie]

I certainly don't think of Mormons as any more delusional than any other Christian sect.  There's very little that could be added to a story about a man you're supposed to literally believe came back from the dead that would make me say - now that - THAT is super crazy.

[Thumpalumpacus]

LDS were formerly vociferously against blacks joining the church, and since they refuse to permit out-marriage, it was a de facto ban on race-mixing, so far as I remember.

I can understand formerly (the Catholic church formerly killed non-believers), but the statement I was replying to was present tense. Since they finally allowed black people to hold the priesthood, they had revised their books by removing most of the racist crap. They allow out-marriage, just not in their temples. They consider it (as I think all religions should) a legal marriage while they have their own religious marriage. I've known several Mormon and non-Mormon marriages without the Mormon getting kicked out. So because my experiences show that they do allow out-marriages I really don't understand the idea that they refuse to permit out-marriage.

I'm fine with making fun of and pointing out a religions ridiculous beliefs, but having so many idiots try to tell me I think this and that because I'm an atheist, makes me not want to be the idiot towards their beliefs. Unless they really take that belief, it goes against my grain to state they do.

A simple "you're wrong" works too.  I've made mistakes before, I'm sure to do so again, and appreciate you helping me correct this one.

[GAYtheist]

Personally, I refuse to respect Mormonism, the individuals can earn my respect, as an example on of the ladies I volunteer with is one of my best friends, and a Mormon. But Mormonism and Catholicism, I refuse to respect them. I've had some ask me why, and I tell them, calmly and collectively as I can, that I will respect no-one that fights so hard to keep me and  people like me from having equal rights because of their beliefs. Being gay, this applies to me, my partner, and anyone else who happens to be gay, lesbian or transgendered. That's just me though.