An interesting topic / Please view and comment

[JustAJ]

I have just recently been in the process of going from devout faithfulness to an atheist but when I after I came to terms with my new belief I got this strange urge to talk about it.  Kind of like "witnessing" atheism.  I never really ever wanted to talk about Jesus and what not.  I find myself agueing with my girlfreind (who's dad is a Lutheran paster an she is very religious)  and trying to debate with her and kind of pushing her away. I realize what it's doing to our relationship but I feel the need to bring it up when ever she talks about god and miricles and what not.  I'm not a person who thinks that religious people are " bad " or anything but I find myself wanting others to question things that they have been told like I have.  

I'm wondering if others ever feel the need to discuss their beliefs or try to "convert" people.

Please post an view, advise, or attitude on the matter.

[curiosityandthecat]

I'm wondering if others ever feel the need to discuss their beliefs or try to "convert" people.

All the damn time. I refrain, however. Sometimes it's better to not make waves, especially when the desired results come with some very undesirable consequences.

Luckily, my wife is a de facto atheist, being Taiwanese, and my mother has a very laissez-faire attitude toward religion. The extended family, Appalachian Bible-bangers all the way. I don't visit them much.   As for co-workers, I find religion is best kept out of the workplace. Friends know I'm an atheist, most of them are either atheists, agnostics or just not very religious in either direction, so the urges I do feel to convert are usually directed toward public figures or people in the news. Then again, I live in a small college town, so the attitude here is pretty liberal and religion isn't really a big thing.

[Tank]

I have found myself steering conversations around to belief/faith/atheism much more than I used to. Partly I think it is down to the fact that I spend a lot more time considering these issues than I used to. Partly it is to discuss these issues via speaking than typing as I'm not a very fast typist and I can get through a lot more ideas when talking. I also find face-to-face communication of emotional and delicate issue more productive as you get to see body language and hear vocal inflections that are denied to us through the medium of the written word.

[jrosebud]

Maybe part of it stems from not wanting to be misunderstood.

[KDbeads]

I can't here, this area is not the place to question faith or sexuality.  So far anyone who has come out of either closet has been dealt with harshly, ie brick through windows, vandilization of property, etc...

[pinkocommie]

I like to talk about religions, but I'm not interested in convincing anyone they should be an atheist.  It's kind of a weird position to be in I guess, because I have to deflect a lot of weird assumptions from people who think I am trying to change their mind.  I'm not shy about saying that I think they're wrong when I happen to disagree with them, I just don't expect them to care that I think they're wrong.

[TheJackel]

I like to talk about religions, but I'm not interested in convincing anyone they should be an atheist.  It's kind of a weird position to be in I guess, because I have to deflect a lot of weird assumptions from people who think I am trying to change their mind.  I'm not shy about saying that I think they're wrong when I happen to disagree with them, I just don't expect them to care that I think they're wrong.

It's almost impossible to state an argument on such forums like this without being on one side of that coin or another. When people join forums like these they ought to expect to hear the opposing view, or arguments. It may at times sound like a conversion game but it really comes down to how much currency and value you have within your arguments. Hence, they are playing a circular game when they pull the "you are trying to change my mind card", especially in forums with opposing views.. Hence, if you are going to join in the discussion, or argument, you need to accept and expect the consequences of engagement. Everyone here has a choice to participate or remain on the sidelines. There is no excuse to call foul when you are knee deep in the argument. Thus, those types of arguments are deflections and have no meaning or substance to any argument being waged.

[Whitney]

I think wanting to talk about a recent personal paradigm shift is completely normal no matter who you are or what you believe.

I talk about atheism, freethought etc in real life about as much as I do on the forum but that's only because I'm involved in freethought community groups and volunteer projects....I don't particularly enjoy discussing religion with most people (most people don't want to think) because I don't feel the need to be that kind of teacher.

[JustAJ]

I think I just am more conserned about figuring out what I believe more than convinsong other people,  debateing it just makes u really have to think about what u really believe and why.

[KebertX]

Yes, but when you really love someone, one of 2 things happens:
1) You care too much about them to see them persist in delusion, and try to entice them to question their faitn. This tends to lead to hostility.
2) Because you love them, you cannot bring yourself to see something wrong with their beliefs, and you fully accept them for everyting they are. This leads to harmony.
It's your call. My last girlfriend was a muslim. I wanted to use both of these approaches so badly, but #2 is the only one that actually helped the relationship.

[elliebean]

Yes, but when you really love someone, one of 2 things happens:
1) You care too much about them to see them persist in delusion, and try to entice them to question their faitn. This tends to lead to hostility.
2) Because you love them, you cannot bring yourself to see something wrong with their beliefs, and you fully accept them for everyting they are. This leads to harmony.
It's your call. My last girlfriend was a muslim. I wanted to use both of these approaches so badly, but #2 is the only one that actually helped the relationship.

Would you say that this applies in all cases, or that hostility is sometimes preferable to harmony? Or could there be more options?

For example:

I am adamantly, vocally, visibly, on the rare occasion violently opposed to intolerance, bigotry, hate, oppression, etc., especially of the organized variety.

I have a first cousin I was very close to since we were infants and grew up with almost as a brother, who I love the same as if he were actually my brother. After we had been seperated for a few years, as a young adult he had become involved in some serious criminal activities and was very soon apprehended and given a long prison sentence. During his incarceration, he also became affiliated with a known white supremacist hate group and rose within their ranks. I know this because I was one of the two people who maintained written communication with him during that time. As much as I disapproved, I tried to be understanding of his need to use whatever means available in order to survive his confinement amongst violent, racist psychopaths. He has now long since paroled, yet persists in his racist attitudes and continues to associate himself with the same types of people on the outside.

I'm sure there are plenty of things about my worldview and lifestyle of which he does not approve, either.

I don't know what kind of relationship I can expect to have with such a person.




So I don't.  



I'm just wondering what anyone else's take on this would be.

[TheJackel]

Yes, but when you really love someone, one of 2 things happens:
1) You care too much about them to see them persist in delusion, and try to entice them to question their faitn. This tends to lead to hostility.
2) Because you love them, you cannot bring yourself to see something wrong with their beliefs, and you fully accept them for everyting they are. This leads to harmony.
It's your call. My last girlfriend was a muslim. I wanted to use both of these approaches so badly, but #2 is the only one that actually helped the relationship.

Would you say that this applies in all cases, or that hostility is sometimes preferable to harmony? Or could there be more options?

For example:

I am adamantly, vocally, visibly, on the rare occasion violently opposed to intolerance, bigotry, hate, oppression, etc., especially of the organized variety.

I have a first cousin I was very close to since we were infants and grew up with almost as a brother, who I love the same as if he were actually my brother. After we had been seperated for a few years, as a young adult he had become involved in some serious criminal activities and was very soon apprehended and given a long prison sentence. During his incarceration, he also became affiliated with a known white supremacist hate group and rose within their ranks. I know this because I was one of the two people who maintained written communication with him during that time. As much as I disapproved, I tried to be understanding of his need to use whatever means available in order to survive his confinement amongst violent, racist psychopaths. He has now long since paroled, yet persists in his racist attitudes and continues to associate himself with the same types of people on the outside.

I'm sure there are plenty of things about my worldview and lifestyle of which he does not approve, either.

I don't know what kind of relationship I can expect to have with such a person.




So I don't.  :shake:

You should perhaps have conversations with him on why he's racist, or doesn't associate with other races. It's likely that he has been brainwashed, or manipulated into using his anger and fears as an emotional attachment to other races. This is how religion brainwashes people on a daily basis by preying on peoples emotions in order to attach them to iconic symbols, objects, or concepts. It's how faith and devotion is engineered with obedience and  without question. And interestingly enough, prison is typically an acute environment to where such manipulation becomes easily submissive considering the Latino's, Blacks, Whites, ect. all segregate into protective groups, or gangs.. So I'm not sure he will ever overcome this unless he gets some serious help or therapy.

[Gawen]

I pretend I'm hoeing a rather tough piece of ground...with big ass rocks in it. I'm not trying to convert the ground...just plant a few seeds.

[JustAJ]

That really sums it up well gawen.  I'm not aiming to "make" others agree with me i just want poeple to take a serious look at what they believe and THINK about it. I have a friend who said herself that the only reason she belives in God (catholic) is because she is just "Going with the flow of what everyone elce is doing".

[Thumpalumpacus]

I like to talk about religions, but I'm not interested in convincing anyone they should be an atheist.  It's kind of a weird position to be in I guess, because I have to deflect a lot of weird assumptions from people who think I am trying to change their mind.  I'm not shy about saying that I think they're wrong when I happen to disagree with them, I just don't expect them to care that I think they're wrong.

Ce pensee, et toujours ce pensee.