determinism

[i_am_i]

Where I get bummed is when I think about the fact that everything that I consider to be my identity originated elsewhere.  All of my desires and abilities were formed by someone/something else; my dreams are mine only in-so-far as I have felt and remembered them.  The rock star, the Nobel Prize-winning scientist, the Pope, the sociopath, the druggie, and the dedicated philanthropist were all set up to become who they are.  That sucks for the unfortunate (and those who care about them).

Where did you get this idea that it's a fact that everything you consider to be your identity originated elsewhere? Who/what is this someone/something that formed your desires and abilities?  Who or what "set you up" to become what you are?

[jrosebud]

Where I get bummed is when I think about the fact that everything that I consider to be my identity originated elsewhere.  All of my desires and abilities were formed by someone/something else; my dreams are mine only in-so-far as I have felt and remembered them.  The rock star, the Nobel Prize-winning scientist, the Pope, the sociopath, the druggie, and the dedicated philanthropist were all set up to become who they are.  That sucks for the unfortunate (and those who care about them).

Where did you get this idea that it's a fact that everything you consider to be your identity originated elsewhere? Who/what is this someone/something that formed your desires and abilities?  Who or what "set you up" to become what you are?

That's how determinism works - not-so-simple cause and effect.  We are the combination of genes plus environment.

The someone/something is everything that has acted on me from the beginning of my time.

[Davin]

Where I get bummed is when I think about the fact that everything that I consider to be my identity originated elsewhere.  All of my desires and abilities were formed by someone/something else; my dreams are mine only in-so-far as I have felt and remembered them.  The rock star, the Nobel Prize-winning scientist, the Pope, the sociopath, the druggie, and the dedicated philanthropist were all set up to become who they are.  That sucks for the unfortunate (and those who care about them).

Where did you get this idea that it's a fact that everything you consider to be your identity originated elsewhere? Who/what is this someone/something that formed your desires and abilities?  Who or what "set you up" to become what you are?

That's how determinism works - not-so-simple cause and effect.  We are the combination of genes plus environment.

The someone/something is everything that has acted on me from the beginning of my time.

I see this argument as pretty useless because no matter what the answer (even though it's currently unknowable), the outcome will be the same: I'll live my life making decisions and doing things as if I'm making decisions and doing things based on my choices and not some determined cause and effect.

If everything is determined, then I have no choice but to continue the way that I'm determined to go (making decisions as if my choices aren't determined) because it's already been determined that I will do so.

If only a few things are determined, then I will continue making decisions as if my choices aren't determined because not everything is determined.

If nothing is determined, then I will continue making decisions as if my choices aren't determined because nothing is determined.

So no matter what the reality is, I will act the same and it has no effect on my life whatsoever.

[philosoraptor]

You only have to believe in determinism for it to bother you.  As others have already said that's the thing-whether you believe in it or not, it doesn't change a thing.  No point in stressing over something you can't change either way.

[jrosebud]

You only have to believe in determinism for it to bother you.  As others have already said that's the thing-whether you believe in it or not, it doesn't change a thing.  No point in stressing over something you can't change either way.

How have you found a way not to believe it?  (I'm getting to a point where considering it as a truth might not bother me quite so much, but I'm just curious as to how others don't see it as the logical conclusion.)

[philosoraptor]

I just don't believe in it?  I'm an existentialist-free will is at the root of what I believe.  Even if our decisions are caused, they're still our decisions.  If I'm reading you right, it seems like you believe in biological determinism?  There are many different kinds of determinism, not all of which are entirely incompatible with the notion of free will.  Hunger is a biological urge.  I eat because I am caused to by my body's sense of hunger.  However, I still have a choice in what I consume to satisfy that urge.  That's just one very simple example, but it's one of the reasons why it's never bothered me.  Yes, we may be caused to do certain things, but ultimately the choice is ours in the end in terms of how we respond to those urges.

In existentialist philosophy, those things we cannot change are referred to as facticity.  I can't change that I am a white female with certain genetic predispositions.  I can only change how I chose to live with these unchangeable elements of my life-that's facticity.

[i_am_i]

Where I get bummed is when I think about the fact that everything that I consider to be my identity originated elsewhere.  All of my desires and abilities were formed by someone/something else; my dreams are mine only in-so-far as I have felt and remembered them.  The rock star, the Nobel Prize-winning scientist, the Pope, the sociopath, the druggie, and the dedicated philanthropist were all set up to become who they are.  That sucks for the unfortunate (and those who care about them).

Where did you get this idea that it's a fact that everything you consider to be your identity originated elsewhere? Who/what is this someone/something that formed your desires and abilities?  Who or what "set you up" to become what you are?

That's how determinism works - not-so-simple cause and effect.  We are the combination of genes plus environment.

The someone/something is everything that has acted on me from the beginning of my time.

That seems like an extremely passive way to approach life. It sounds to me that you're rather stuck. Even if you do something it doesn't matter because it was intended all along for you to do it. So why do anything at all? No, that doesn't work either, because it was intended all along for you to to do nothing.

Yep. You're stuck.

Look, how do you manage to not believe in God while at the same time believing in this determinism hoo-haw to the point that it's got you do depressed?

I find it ironic that your signiture is:

"Every post you can hitch your faith on
Is a pie in the sky,
Chock full of lies,
A tool we devise
To make sinking stones fly."

Ever thought about applying that sentiment to determinism?

[Occam]

Of course everything is caused or determined, however, the causes are so complex, subtle, hidden, and interwoven that there's no way we can identify or predict them.  As such, we have to behave as if we had free will.  Help people whenever you can, avoid hurting anyone, and have fun while you're living your life.  Do things that will shape the meaning of your life in a way that you can be happy with.  If you screw up, recognize it, correct it if you can; if you can't, shrug your shoulders and try to avoid doing that again.

So don't worry about determinism.  Life is an adventure with all sorts of unexpected turns.  Be surprised and enjoy it.

Occam

[jrosebud]

That seems like an extremely passive way to approach life. It sounds to me that you're rather stuck. Even if you do something it doesn't matter because it was intended all along for you to do it. So why do anything at all? No, that doesn't work either, because it was intended all along for you to to do nothing.

Yep. You're stuck.

Look, how do you manage to not believe in God while at the same time believing in this determinism hoo-haw to the point that it's got you do depressed?

This would be fatalism, though.  I don't ascribe to that, as what we do matters; it shapes the rest of our lives (and the lives of those conteporary with and who follow us).  The suffering of others (and my inability to much about it, despite my good intentions) is what I think has really got me down.

Scientific determinism does make the most sense to me, even if there is room for uncaused events in the universe (though I'm confused as to how that would work).  The search for "truth" used to be a big part of my identity.  It's becoming clearer to me that I'm tending toward agnosticism more and more, as I can't seem to quit chipping away at whatever foundations I build for myself.  I'm finding it more difficult to gather meanings (which makes it hard construct an identity and to interact socially without being reduced to a sobbing mess).  I envy those who can accept a worldview without questioning every bit of it on a regular basis.  Lately, shuffling off this mortal coil seems like a valid option, if not just to break off my thoughts.

I'm unemployed; I quit my crap job to spend the summer home with my 8-year-old daughter - so my depression is even more frustrating, as we're supposed to be living up our time together.  And we're finally financially at the point where I can go back to college, which I've been waiting to do for seven years.  Now that I'm here, I'm not sure what I could study that would be meaningful to me anymore (which is darkly funny, as previously I would have wanted to major in just about everything).  Now I'm afraid to delve too deeply into anything, for fear of failure, misguided "success," and unhenging myself again.

Thanks for letting me unload.  It helps just typing this all out.  Most of my people are not in a place to understand what I'm going through, as their worldviews are pretty deeply entrenched (and the adjustments that are made are done so subtly that they don't often notice).

[jrosebud]

Would a previous posting of an avatar have increased the possibility of someone posting "don't jump"?

[pinkocommie]

Would a previous posting of an avatar have increased the possibility of someone posting "don't jump"?

That little ginger kitty IS adorable...

[i_am_i]

I'm unemployed; I quit my crap job to spend the summer home with my 8-year-old daughter - so my depression is even more frustrating, as we're supposed to be living up our time together.  And we're finally financially at the point where I can go back to college, which I've been waiting to do for seven years.  Now that I'm here, I'm not sure what I could study that would be meaningful to me anymore (which is darkly funny, as previously I would have wanted to major in just about everything).  Now I'm afraid to delve too deeply into anything, for fear of failure, misguided "success," and unhenging myself again.

I don't mean to come across as being harsh but with all this going on you're worried about determinism?!

You say you're financially secure enough for you to be able to go back to college. You can go back to college, that's great! My wife would love to be able to go back to college to get her master's degree but we don't have the money, and it breaks my heart because she very much wants that, but that's just the way it is. And now, with all you say you've got going for you, you're putting up imaginary obstacles for yourself. Forgive me for not feeling your pain but I swear I just don't get it.

Fuck all that fear. Be who you know yourself to be, and if you don't who you are then find out and find out quick, get your ass in college, enjoy your good fortune and be a happy, loving and strong father for your daughter.

You know, you're really starting to piss me off.

[Sophus]

You know, you're really starting to piss me off.

[jrosebud]

Seriously?  I'm in a pretty deep depression and all you've got is that I'm pissing you off?  

That's the thing - I don't know who I am or what I want or how to feel much of anything that isn't nausea or panic these days.  Hasn't anyone here been through an existential crisis who knows how I feel who could offer a "hang in there" or something?

Not that it's relevant, but I'm a mother.

[joeactor]

... The best advise I can give is to seek help.  Depression is nothing to mess with, and the answers probably won't be found on a forum or by riddling about determinism.

Please.  See your doctor.  Talk about real options to aid in getting better.

I wish you the best,
JoeActor