Used to say I was agnostic --- why?!?

[SteveS]

Hello all - my name is Steve.  I was raised in a non-religious environment, and have been a religious skeptic ever since I was very young.  In fact, I remember once I asked my Dad what happens to you when you die (I was about 7), and he said you go to heaven and live forever.  My Dad is not religious, but I suppose he was trying to give me a comforting answer (I asked right at bedtime - kids always pull stuff like this, don't they?  Ask an impossible question when they are suppossed to be going to bed...).  Anyway, my poor Dad never realized what he did to me, because I laid there awake for hours trying to understand the concept of living forever.  Even after 100 years, there is still forever.  After 1000 years, there's still forever.  Even after a period of time equal to all history, there is still forever.  In fact, it seemed to make life totally meaningless - would you even remember your "earthly" life while living forever in heaven?  What would I do with all that time ?  Wouldn't I get bored?  Something about the concept just seemed impossible to me.

Anyway, as I grew up I definitely considered religion ridiculous.  I was horrified in high school (public school) when I took world history my freshman year, and the teacher asked how many people believe God created the earth and the living creatures.  I estimate 75% of that class raised their hands.  I had already made friends with a lot of these kids, and they seemed normal, so how did they actually believe this?  I was truly shocked.  The teacher was, I believe, trying to make a point about the Greek mythology which we were covering at the time.  I wonder how many of them got the point?

Anyway, a few months ago some Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door and asked if I believed in God.  I of course said no, and they asked if they could come in and talk to me about it.  So of course I said sure, and off we went.  I've been going back and forth with them for several weeks now, trying to "de-convert" them (it's not working).  But they have awoken my interest in this topic again, having not really thought much about it since I graduated college (about 12 years ago).

I used to say I was agnostic, why?  I think the word "Atheist" comes with so many negative connotations to so many people, and I didn't want everyone to brand me a freak, so I just took the easy way out.  I justified it by thinking to myself how could anyone really know if God exists anyway?  Isn't Atheism a faith, too?  Believing there is no God without being able to prove it?  So, I started reading.  I read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, some Carl Sagan books (Demon Haunted World, his old Gifford lectures),  and enjoyed them so much, and they made so much sense.  I also looked up definitions.  Agnositic is typically held to mean that one could never know anything about the existence of God, which didn't sound right to me.  The definition of "Weak Atheist" says that a person lacks a belief in God because they have no evidence (or reason) for believing.  Bingo!  That was me exactly.  So, now I am proud to say I'm an Atheist.  Hell with them if it freaks out anyone who asks me!

To wrap up, I thought I'd like to take place in some discussions with people who aren't Jehovah's Witnesses, and I'll try to jump into some of the talk on this board.  I've read over some of the forum posts and find lots of interesting things here.  Just thought I'd say hi first!

Thanks for having me,
Steve

[MommaSquid]

Welcome to the forum, Steve.

[MrE2Me]

I used to say I was agnostic, why?  I think the word "Atheist" comes with so many negative connotations to so many people, and I didn't want everyone to brand me a freak, so I just took the easy way out.  I justified it by thinking to myself how could anyone really know if God exists anyway?  Isn't Atheism a faith, too?  Believing there is no God without being able to prove it?  So, I started reading.  I read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, some Carl Sagan books (Demon Haunted World, his old Gifford lectures),  and enjoyed them so much, and they made so much sense.  I also looked up definitions.  Agnositic is typically held to mean that one could never know anything about the existence of God, which didn't sound right to me.  The definition of "Weak Atheist" says that a person lacks a belief in God because they have no evidence (or reason) for believing.  Bingo!  That was me exactly.  So, now I am proud to say I'm an Atheist.  Hell with them if it freaks out anyone who asks me!

I went through the same exact thought process you describe here, and came to the same conclusion you did.  Atheism doesn't have to = being 100% sure there is no god (with a lowercase "g") or higher being of any kind...after all, at this point in time such a certainty isn't really possible.

[Will]

It's important to remember that the worst argument that theists make is that no one can disprove god. It's a non-point, as if to say, "Anything is possible, thus god is possible." That's not how reason works, and it's okay to admit that to yourself. Of course it's possible god exists. It's possible that I'm god, and I just don't know it. It's possible that our government is run by mermaids. The fact of the matter is that the absence of evidence is the absence of evidence. Because no evidence exists to support the assertion that mermaids run the government, it would be considered illogical to think they did. The same is true of the god idea.

Speaking to the Jehovah's Witnesses, I feel it's a right of all atheists to fuck with theists that knock at your door. They put themselves out there representing something and intrude on people's right to not have religion. I've converted Jehovah's Witnesses to Christians and Muslims. If you're interested, I can send you my arguments. The only thing I've really been unable to do is convert them to atheism. I've found they just aren't built that way. They need that dependence on fiction in order to give meaning to their lives without any real effort and to blanket themselves with simplicity.

[SteveS]

Hi guys - thanks for the welcoming words.

Because no evidence exists to support the assertion that mermaids run the government, it would be considered illogical to think they did. The same is true of the god idea.

Exactly.  Of all the logical fallacies, I think this particular one is among the most commonly used (or abused).

Atheism doesn't have to = being 100% sure there is no god (with a lowercase "g") or higher being of any kind...after all, at this point in time such a certainty isn't really possible.

And the funny thing is that if so many people didn't already believe in god, you wouldn't have to justify why you don't.

It's important to remember that the worst argument that theists make is that no one can disprove god.

I also hate the "man wouldn't have thought these things up on his own" argument.

Speaking to the Jehovah's Witnesses, I feel it's a right of all atheists to fuck with theists that knock at your door.

Absolutely.  As chance would have it, I opened the door (on the first visit) with unkempt, unwashed hair sticking every which way, wearing khaki shorts, those fake wool socks, and a T shirt that says "Got Beer?".  The woman asked me "Don't you feel there's some higher power that governs our lives?".  I responded by laughing loudly and saying I was a physics major, we don't believe in god.  The shocked look I got was worth it! (I transferred from physics to electrical engineering my junior year).

Anyway, converting Witnesses to other religions is brilliant, it never occurred to me to try.  I actually liked these witnesses, they were friendly and sincere, and they talk to total strangers about, basically, the human condition.  I just wish they could harness these good qualities with a realistic worldview, and drop all the religious garbage.

[MrE2Me]

Maybe atheists should go door-to-door?

[SteveS]

Maybe atheists should go door-to-door?

Ha - this reminds me of a youtube video I saw.  I don't know if you've seen this or not, but the link is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV-a1vmZ6y8

I think this guy is an Australian film maker, and I guess he gets a lot of mormons knocking on his door.

He spends the first half ranting against mormons (it's actually pretty funny) and then flies to Salt Lake City and goes door to door with a copy of Darwin's Origin of Species "preaching" atheism.  It's not as good as it could have been, but it is funny.