Scientists vs. Animal Rights Extremists

[LoneMateria]

I'm sure his intentions were in the right place but the impact it will have on some peoples lives.  I mean for those salesmen who make commission they need that to support their families after all most people live paycheck to paycheck.  Since Will mentioned holiday i'm thinking xmas in which case the salesmen need their comission for gifts and holiday festivities.  Don't get me wrong I too think Hummers are bad for everyone and i'm not questioning your motives i'm questioning the actions.

[SSY]

( I don't want to turn this into a slagging off Will thread, but here goes. . .)

To be honest, the thing that rankles me about it, is the fact you are forcing your views about how much it is appropriate to consume on others, which I don't really think is your place to do or decide what is a appropriate. I am sure compared to many others you waste vast amounts of resources, but no one comes and chains themselves to your bus pass, then tells you to walk do they? Just out of interest, where do you stand with regards to PETA ( feel free to ignore )?

I like your jumper though.

And on topic, animal testing for medicine=yes, otherwise, a lot more dubious. I for one would be pretty pissed if one of my family members was dead because there were drugs to treat them, for the sake of some monkeys.

[Ultima22689]

Hopefully in the future we will be able to grow specific parts of the human body so we can just do testing on that stuff.

[SSY]

That would be awesome for transplants as well. Of course, technology like that will need a lot of testing on animals first, there are no easy answers in all this.

[Ultima22689]

Really? Why would animals need to be used for testing on human organs?

[Will]

Actually most cops I've met say it's the hardest thing to see the dealer's kids have so much confusion and rage in their eyes because they know this cycle will continue because even though daddy sold bad things the kid doesn't know that.

That's not what I mean. Cops don't stop and think, "Well, I should probably bust this cocaine dealer, but he has a family. I'll go bust someone else." Sure, it's a shame, but the drug dealer is responsible both for his behavior and for his family. Choosing such an inherently destructive and harmful vocation is not only irresponsible personally, but it also makes him or her irresponsible in being responsible for a family.

However, these were people who had a legit, if disgustingly wasteful, business going. I personally feel that vehicles of that size are for one real purpose....military/industrial use. When I worked at the mall as security I'd see 20 of those god awful things parked outside Nordstrom and ONE person (almost always an older white woman with tons of bags) climbing into it and riding off for her 10 mpg highway rating. These are also the same people who complain about high gas prices coming from dirty Arabs and such.

Anyway, I think your analogy is flawed because these are not bad people selling poison. They're selling a vehicle that consumes a lot of gas. Yeah it's not good but I don't think it's inherently evil like Heroin.

There's no such thing as evil.

As I said, it was more about theatricality than it was actually damaging the business. It was mostly about reminding consumers of their responsibility to buy things that aren't terribly wasteful and damage the community than it was about punishing sales people. Still, they're not totally innocent. What they do to buy groceries for their family does have an inherently destructive result.

To be honest, the thing that rankles me about it, is the fact you are forcing your views about how much it is appropriate to consume on others, which I don't really think is your place to do or decide what is a appropriate. I am sure compared to many others you waste vast amounts of resources, but no one comes and chains themselves to your bus pass, then tells you to walk do they? Just out of interest, where do you stand with regards to PETA ( feel free to ignore )?

Like the Nobel Peace Prize, it's about intent and attempt. I probably do waste more than some people, but when I make decisions as a consumer I make them with more than just myself in mind. It's not about a game of moral superiority, though, it's about simply how people need to act in order for problems we're facing to go away. I can only wait so long for people to make better decisions. In a way, this is about self-interest (in the way that evolutionary altruism is about self-interest).

[LoneMateria]

Growing animal organs first to make sure that they will adhere to the animal.  It would literally involve taking a healthy animal and cutting out some vital organ and putting a new one in.  Sucks to be the animals but that would bring an end to animal testing.

[Big Mac]

Actually most cops I've met say it's the hardest thing to see the dealer's kids have so much confusion and rage in their eyes because they know this cycle will continue because even though daddy sold bad things the kid doesn't know that.

That's not what I mean. Cops don't stop and think, "Well, I should probably bust this cocaine dealer, but he has a family. I'll go bust someone else." Sure, it's a shame, but the drug dealer is responsible both for his behavior and for his family. Choosing such an inherently destructive and harmful vocation is not only irresponsible personally, but it also makes him or her irresponsible in being responsible for a family.

However, these were people who had a legit, if disgustingly wasteful, business going. I personally feel that vehicles of that size are for one real purpose....military/industrial use. When I worked at the mall as security I'd see 20 of those god awful things parked outside Nordstrom and ONE person (almost always an older white woman with tons of bags) climbing into it and riding off for her 10 mpg highway rating. These are also the same people who complain about high gas prices coming from dirty Arabs and such.

Anyway, I think your analogy is flawed because these are not bad people selling poison. They're selling a vehicle that consumes a lot of gas. Yeah it's not good but I don't think it's inherently evil like Heroin.

There's no such thing as evil.

As I said, it was more about theatricality than it was actually damaging the business. It was mostly about reminding consumers of their responsibility to buy things that aren't terribly wasteful and damage the community than it was about punishing sales people. Still, they're not totally innocent. What they do to buy groceries for their family does have an inherently destructive result.

To be honest, the thing that rankles me about it, is the fact you are forcing your views about how much it is appropriate to consume on others, which I don't really think is your place to do or decide what is a appropriate. I am sure compared to many others you waste vast amounts of resources, but no one comes and chains themselves to your bus pass, then tells you to walk do they? Just out of interest, where do you stand with regards to PETA ( feel free to ignore )?

Like the Nobel Peace Prize, it's about intent and attempt. I probably do waste more than some people, but when I make decisions as a consumer I make them with more than just myself in mind. It's not about a game of moral superiority, though, it's about simply how people need to act in order for problems we're facing to go away. I can only wait so long for people to make better decisions. In a way, this is about self-interest (in the way that evolutionary altruism is about self-interest).

No offense Will but you come off a little arrogant about your point of view here. I just think it's a waste, you're equating these guys with drug dealers.

And yes, there is such a thing as evil. Selling people is evil, shooting a man/woman/child in cold blood is evil, raping someone, setting an animal on fire for your sick amusement, cutting a baby open with a pizza cutter, etc. are evil actions. Try to justify any of them in any moral form. That's evil.

[Will]

No offense Will but you come off a little arrogant about your point of view here. I just think it's a waste, you're equating these guys with drug dealers.

No, I'm not. I'm equating myself to the police, within the question of how I feel about their families. It wasn't a perfect illustration, but you asked about the children.

And yes, there is such a thing as evil. Selling people is evil, shooting a man/woman/child in cold blood is evil, raping someone, setting an animal on fire for your sick amusement, cutting a baby open with a pizza cutter, etc. are evil actions. Try to justify any of them in any moral form. That's evil.

Those are harmful and destructive, sure, but why use a word with such obvious religious connotations? Evil is generally associated with the devil, with the moral absolutism of religion. Anyway, we're getting waaaay off topic.

Animal rights activists vs. scientists.... go!

[Big Mac]

No offense Will but you come off a little arrogant about your point of view here. I just think it's a waste, you're equating these guys with drug dealers.

No, I'm not. I'm equating myself to the police, within the question of how I feel about their families. It wasn't a perfect illustration, but you asked about the children.

And yes, there is such a thing as evil. Selling people is evil, shooting a man/woman/child in cold blood is evil, raping someone, setting an animal on fire for your sick amusement, cutting a baby open with a pizza cutter, etc. are evil actions. Try to justify any of them in any moral form. That's evil.

Those are harmful and destructive, sure, but why use a word with such obvious religious connotations? Evil is generally associated with the devil, with the moral absolutism of religion. Anyway, we're getting waaaay off topic.

Animal rights activists vs. scientists.... go!

So why do you feel it's wrong for a scientist to experiment on an animal? It's just one animal and it's for the greater good. I'd have no problem cutting a dog up or gassing a monkey or burning a pig alive if it meant that it would help mankind out with advances in medicine. I'd feel bad for the animals but it's for the greater good. They're animals, after all.

You know I'm almost tempted to become religious again, they at least take a stand against some sort of moral wrong. If this is the majority of how atheists think I"m a bit scared. There are such things as evil, and if you don't believe that then you are allowing evil by proxy in my opinion. I don't believe in moral relativity.

[Will]

So why do you feel it's wrong for a scientist to experiment on an animal?

I think you missed this, in post #3:

Personally, I do understand the importance of animal testing when it comes to areas of real science. While I don't like the idea of animals suffering and dying, I realize their sacrifices are for a wider good.

You know I'm almost tempted to become religious again, they at least take a stand against some sort of moral wrong. If this is the majority of how atheists think I"m a bit scared. There are such things as evil, and if you don't believe that then you are allowing evil by proxy in my opinion. I don't believe in moral relativity.

Because I'm a moral relativist, I'm allowing evil, therefore you're thinking about changing your mind when it comes to atheism and becoming religious again? That's... um... interesting.

[Big Mac]

So why do you feel it's wrong for a scientist to experiment on an animal?

I think you missed this, in post #3:

Personally, I do understand the importance of animal testing when it comes to areas of real science. While I don't like the idea of animals suffering and dying, I realize their sacrifices are for a wider good.

You know I'm almost tempted to become religious again, they at least take a stand against some sort of moral wrong. If this is the majority of how atheists think I"m a bit scared. There are such things as evil, and if you don't believe that then you are allowing evil by proxy in my opinion. I don't believe in moral relativity.

Because I'm a moral relativist, I'm allowing evil, therefore you're thinking about changing your mind when it comes to atheism and becoming religious again? That's... um... interesting.

No, it's not just you. It seems like almost all atheist don't believe in some sort of universal evil. That and I feel more in tuned with the religious thing. I'm not very sexually open, I prefer a more toned down way of living, and I hope there is some sort of afterlife. And maybe the Wise One (the Otter) was right. Maybe believing in God makes God real.

[Ultima22689]

You should probably make the switch, you sound like a religious person anyway, to be honest with you. Of course i'm sensing someone is probably trolling again. If you aren't, why did you become an atheist in the first place?

[Big Mac]

You should probably make the switch, you sound like a religious person anyway, to be honest with you. Of course i'm sensing someone is probably trolling again. If you aren't, why did you become an atheist in the first place?

You know I think I became one out of anger more than really any real reason I guess. Yeah there is some kooky stuff in the bible but I think the overall message is great. And I do feel a sense of peace reading it. Maybe God's plan was so above us we don't understand why he would have his people slaughter others. I don't know, but I do feel more at home with religion.

Not trolling, and I know we're off-topic, I'm sorry.

I just don't see what's wrong with experimenting on animals and Will didn't to a certain extent either. Sorry dude, I did miss that post.

[Will]

No, it's not just you. It seems like almost all atheist don't believe in some sort of universal evil. That and I feel more in tuned with the religious thing. I'm not very sexually open, I prefer a more toned down way of living, and I hope there is some sort of afterlife. And maybe the Wise One (the Otter) was right. Maybe believing in God makes God real.

Atheist simply means you disbelieve the existence of god or gods. You can be a gay-not-accepting, uber-conservative, quiet-home-loving, moral absolutist atheist so long as you disbelieve the existence of god or gods. The afterlife thing is a bit of a gray area, but I suppose as long as you don't attribute or associate the afterlife to a supernatural being of any kind, I suppose you're still an atheist.

Anyway, I don't like that we have to experiment on animals for anything, it happens to offend my personal (evil?) morals, but I recognize its importance.