New info on Bird - Dinosaur connection

[joeactor]

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/090610_dinosaur

Good (but short) article.  New information may point to a common ancestor for birds and dinos, rather than having birds descend directly from them...

[thiolsulfate]

It's kind of a silly article with an odd conclusion drawn from a phylogenic stretch.

"X can be considered Z, X comes before Y, therefore Z came before Y."

Also, I'd be interested to know the "oth­er in­con­sis­ten­cies with the bird-from-dinosaur the­o­ries."

Finally:

“Frankly, there’s a lot of mu­se­um pol­i­tics in­volved in this, a lot of ca­reers com­mit­ted to a par­tic­u­lar point of view,” Ruben said. In some mu­se­um dis­plays, he said, the birds-de­scended-from-di­no­saurs ev­o­lu­tion­ary the­o­ry has been por­trayed as a largely ac­cept­ed fact, with an as­ter­isk point­ing out in small type that “some sci­en­tists dis­agree.”

This red herring killed it for me. That's a pretty damned weak argument and given that that's part of the conclusion and not something more concrete in its place makes me seriously doubt the veracity of this article and the integrity of the person speaking those words.

[JillSwift]

The only articles I can find on this odd "fixed femur" in avian anatomy are all on creationist/intelligent design sites.

Apparently, the femur of most birds moves just fine. This is evident in most species, and especially in species that have lost the ability to fly in lieu of being able to run. What has changed is a more vertical femoral positioning and a knee-centric (or knee-primary) mode of locomotion on land. For a great article on that, try this.

Either the information in the OP's linked article is apocryphal at source, or it is an outright fabrication. The "Wedge Document" does mention muddying the waters.

[Heretical Rants]

Jill, you just made me feel more paranoid than I have felt in a looooonnnng time.

[EvolutionisRight]

As someone who's been a big dino fanatic since before I could walk, I 100% believe in the relationship between Therapod Dinosaurs and todays birds. Both of these animal groups share a few biological and physical traits such as feathers, scales, large eyes, hollow bones, lay eggs and considering what type of species your refering to, cared for their young. I saw a program on either the History Channel or Discovery where a paleotologist came up with a theory that Dinosaurs were niether warm blooded like mammals or cold blooded like reptiles. Instead they may have been more like luke-warm blooded, which would mean they were more active than reptiles and probably a little more sluggish than mammals. Whether or not this theory has any truth behind it is anyones guess, but I wouldn't throw it out completely. The Dinosaurs are still rather mysterious and because their extinct, we'll never really know how they lived for sure.

[G-Roll]

I sometimes wondered if some may come from birds and some from reptiles. The dinos that walk up right seem more bird like. Such as a t- rex and an ostrich. Whereas the 4 legged dinos always struck me more as reptiles. Like the iguana and the triceratops. Actually all the pics ive seen of herbivores had beak like mouths.

But these are just observations of a layman and a guy who channel surfs the discovery channel.

[LoneMateria]

Something the discovery channel rarely shows is that many (not all) dinosaurs had feathers.  They were later adapted to flight.  We have fossils of dinosaurs with feathers and dinosaurs that glided (granted these are small, no T-Rex did any gliding).

[EvolutionisRight]

Oh, I know not all dinosaurs had feathers. Typically they were the small bipedal carnivores. Though some say young carnivores had a short layer or feathers to help them stay warm, but like I said its just a theory.

[G-Roll]

i cant name any reptiles with feathers....


they suck. all featherless and what not.

[Whitney]

Something the discovery channel rarely shows is that many (not all) dinosaurs had feathers.  

Isn't that rare because a fossilized feather is a fairly recent discovery?  I don't really know but the last show which indicated feathers kinda implied it was due to new information.

[EvolutionisRight]

Yeah, having to spend a couple hours out in the sun just to become active doesn't sound like much fun. But reptiles are still pretty cool none the less. I've raised plenty of Box Turtles myself. Their Kansas's state turtle.

[G-Roll]

Something the discovery channel rarely shows is that many (not all) dinosaurs had feathers.  

Isn't that rare because a fossilized feather is a fairly recent discovery?  I don't really know but the last show which indicated feathers kinda implied it was due to new information.

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/clash-o ... rl-cd-main

i was hoping to defend the discovery channel (because i love it) but i dont see anything on there new program about dinos. No mentions of birds, but a referance to a reptilian stealth bomber. I didnt watch the videos as i dont have time to let them load.

[Whitney]

i was hoping to defend the discovery channel (because i love it) but i dont see anything on there new program about dinos. No mentions of birds, but a referance to a reptilian stealth bomber. I didnt watch the videos as i dont have time to let them load.

I just know i saw some program recently where the artist rendition included feathers on a big dinosaur...however I don't know if it was discovery or some other channel.

[LoneMateria]

i was hoping to defend the discovery channel (because i love it) but i dont see anything on there new program about dinos. No mentions of birds, but a referance to a reptilian stealth bomber. I didnt watch the videos as i dont have time to let them load.

I just know i saw some program recently where the artist rendition included feathers on a big dinosaur...however I don't know if it was discovery or some other channel.

I think you are thinking of.  I saw a special on it too but I don't remember what is on.  I want to say PBS but i'm sure thats wrong.  I think it might have been a NOVA special from PBS.  But I saw it at least a year back.  If it was older then that then discovery has no excuse

[Kidnapkid]

I too find my doubts about this article. Mostly it's lack of resource links. I don't buy it. As far as I know there are no fossils of birds or almost birds predating Anchiornis huxleyi (almost a bird)in the mid Jurassic. (For those of you not up on your dino timeline all three major groupings take place in the Mesozaic. Triassic period: 245 million years ago,  Jurassic period: 208 million years ago, and the Cretaceous period: 144 million years ago.) So Mr. Almostabird is right smack dab in the middle. No where near the Permian period when reptiles started appearing on the planet. If there were to be a complete bird fossil found in the Permian period then we might have to take another look at the fossil record, but as it stands there are no complete bird fossils (such as Archaeopteryx (basically a bird) that lay before the Jurassic period. And Archaeopteryx dates late in the Jurassic with Anchiornis huxleyi coming along before him in the fossil record. Just like one would expect with evolution.

On the same note, but in a fiction sort of way Douglas Preston wrote a really fun fiction book called Tyrannosaur Canyon about a Dino fossil found that's bigger than a t-rex completely covered with feathers. Complete hogwash but a really fun read.


 Anchiornis huxleyi 160 to 155 million years ago


Archaeopteryx 150â€"145 million years ago

There really is nothing sooner than these two fossils. And they both show up well into When Dinosaurs Roamed the Earth, just about the exact middle. give or take a million. There's a ton of info on both these fossils on Wikipedia.

Oh yeah, and it was Nova that aired that program on Anchiornis huxleyi and how it flew. Wind tunnel tests and what not. More of a glider (think flying squirrel.)