Hello I'm not an atheist, but I do have a question.

[Mark_W]

What do atheists think about the lofty moral ideals (the "love your enemies" variety) that Gandhi and his doctrine of nonviolence advanced? I've never heard of an atheist who was also a proponent of absolute nonviolence, but I don't discount it as a possibility.

[ImpaledSkier]

...because atheists are all the same, just like every christian holds the same view about nonviolence...

why would you think an atheist could not be a proponent of absolute nonviolence?

Personally, as it always is, non violence would be something to shoot for, but will not work unless that moral goal is practiced by everyone. I am not a proponent of violence, but accepted that this is the world.

[Mark_W]

When you say "...but will not work unless that moral goal is practiced by everyone. I am not a proponent of violence, but accepted that this is the world."...The thing is, when everyone is good enough, then we will no longer need nonviolence, this is precisely why we use nonviolence now.

[Whitney]

Hi Mark....you already know my view.

[Mark_W]

Hi laetusatheos, thanks for your comments. I used the link from the bottom of one of your posts at the other forum, which led me here, to start my shorter lived nonviolence crusade.
have a good day

[ImpaledSkier]

The thing is, when everyone is good enough, then we will no longer need nonviolence, this is precisely why we use nonviolence now.

Uhmmm...you're going to have to elaborate that one to me, please. I have no idea what you mean by that. Why would we not practice nonviolence?

[MommaSquid]

I would only use violence in a situation where my life (or that of a loved one) was in danger.  So far so good...

[Whitney]

The thing is, when everyone is good enough, then we will no longer need nonviolence, this is precisely why we use nonviolence now.

Uhmmm...you're going to have to elaborate that one to me, please. I have no idea what you mean by that. Why would we not practice nonviolence?

He's talking about total non-violence....to the extent that if you were in a situation where you were attacked that you would always find a non-violent solution.

[ImpaledSkier]

so what was the purpose of this thread again?

I guess I'm not a proponent of total nonviolence...if I was attacked unprovoked I'd at least try and stand up for myself by any means, violent or not. Or something...this thread is friggen weirding me out for some reason.

[Whitney]

Mark_W is trying to promote his utopian view that by leading by example and seeking being totally non-violent that it will eventually catch on as the norm for everyone.  His view is something like that....he started the thread because he's on a mission to spread his non-violent view to others; i think.

Here's other threads to read (if you want) that got more in depth:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum ... pic=4394.0
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum ... pic=4438.0

[Whitney]

this thread is friggen weirding me out for some reason.

Probably because it is kinda weird to promote a view which would make it wrong to use force to defend yourself if the situation called for it.

[Tom62]

When confronted with violence it depends on the situation whether a non-violence approach would work or not. If non-violence is not an suitable option then you should have the right to defend yourself (and others) with all means possible.

[Mark_W]

I came to the atheists, because they are a more rational bunch. The "Christians" or those who believe in other religious superstitions are not open to reason, because they have been "taught" not to listen to their reason, but to listen to the church. So this is what brings me here, as this approach is perfectly rational (and if it's not, I want to know), so it shouldn't weird anyone out. A demonstration in simple logic will confirm it. For example, although we know in practice that we will fall short of our ideals in life, we should, in theory, have the absolute ideal and strive toward it.
For example, If I would like to draw a straight line, I cannot say that a particular segment of the line should be crooked. If I say this then the line will be, in practice, less straight than if I had stuck to the goal of drawing a perfectly straight line.
So is it also with ethics and morality. The ideal must be perfect virtue in order to inspire the closest approximation in practice.

[Big Mac]

Peace is nice but is not feasible on this planet or this universe. To quote the real King (Johnny Cash, not Elvis, though he is pretty awesome too): "This world is rough and if a man's gonna make it he's gotta be tough." I own weapons for the sole purpose of several things:

1.) Self-Defense, which to me is probably one of the most important human rights there is.

2.) National Defense, I would die defending my country with a rifle in my hands and a rucksack on my back if it came to it.

3.) Protecting the innocent and/or defenseless, those who cannot lift their hands to defend themselves need us to do so. Even if they are "evil" or generally bad people, they are not able protect themselves from an assault that is not needed.

Example:
Say Joe Blow just broke into a store and ran off with cash. Joe breaks his leg rather horribly and is about to be lynched by a very violent mob. Yes, Joe broke the law but he is now incapatiated and the law can take him to be treated and then tried as afforded to him by Law. So Joe requires protection from a criminal element that is about to perform an even worse act than his.

4.) Hunting to feed myself and my family or a community that I lived in that needed it to survive. I do not hunt for sport and see it as rather selfish. Now say I used the fur of the animal to make a rug after using the meat, the sporting purpose was secondary to the food one.

I do not lust for violence and would prefer to shoot cans, paper, rotten fruit, bottles, etc. than a person or animal. However, I would be quick to pull the trigger or swing the axe for the reasons above if they were to materialize.

Evil men (and yes, women) prevail when good men (and indeed, women) do not act. In fact, they themselves become partly evil by being complacent.

Perfect Virtue is noble, but not feasible. You are setting yourself up for disappointment. Instead of dreaming a goal, go out and try to find one by performing Just acts. It'll come to you in due time.

[McQ]

Peace is nice but is not feasible on this planet or this universe. To quote the real King (Johnny Cash, not Elvis, though he is pretty awesome too): "This world is rough and if a man's gonna make it he's gotta be tough." I own weapons for the sole purpose of several things:

1.) Self-Defense, which to me is probably one of the most important human rights there is.

2.) National Defense, I would die defending my country with a rifle in my hands and a rucksack on my back if it came to it.

3.) Protecting the innocent and/or defenseless, those who cannot lift their hands to defend themselves need us to do so. Even if they are "evil" or generally bad people, they are not able protect themselves from an assault that is not needed.

Example:
Say Joe Blow just broke into a store and ran off with cash. Joe breaks his leg rather horribly and is about to be lynched by a very violent mob. Yes, Joe broke the law but he is now incapatiated and the law can take him to be treated and then tried as afforded to him by Law. So Joe requires protection from a criminal element that is about to perform an even worse act than his.

4.) Hunting to feed myself and my family or a community that I lived in that needed it to survive. I do not hunt for sport and see it as rather selfish. Now say I used the fur of the animal to make a rug after using the meat, the sporting purpose was secondary to the food one.

I do not lust for violence and would prefer to shoot cans, paper, rotten fruit, bottles, etc. than a person or animal. However, I would be quick to pull the trigger or swing the axe for the reasons above if they were to materialize.

Evil men (and yes, women) prevail when good men (and indeed, women) do not act. In fact, they themselves become partly evil by being complacent.

Perfect Virtue is noble, but not feasible. You are setting yourself up for disappointment. Instead of dreaming a goal, go out and try to find one by performing Just acts. It'll come to you in due time.

Well said, man. Well said!