Why debunk?

[and2premiere]

I guess I would call myself a new atheist. I've been on the fence for a couple of years because I was afraid to let go because of fear.

My question is, "Why should we care about debunking Christianity or any other relgions?" If they believe in what they believe in and it makes them happy, should we ruin that?

My position is that relgion creates segregation and prejudice and is inhibiting our ability to advance as a society, which would in turn assuage human suffering now and for future generations.

Ever since my studies at an Ivy League institution, I've felt I've come to terms with my new self.

I'd be happy to elaborate, but I'd prefer comments first.

[rlrose328]

Welcome to your newfound atheism.  

I once felt like you do... if they believe, who am I to say their mythology is wrong?  My bottom line comes when 1) they want to pass laws based on their religion (gay marriage and others) and 2) they are trying their best to eliminate true science in favor of their faulty "christian science" in the nation's school.

Because of those two issues (primarily), I do what I can to debunk when given the chance.  HOWEVER, the more we try to debunk, the stronger we make their faith, just to spite us.  We won't sway them and they won't sway us, so it's all just a wasted exercise.

I just want them to know they are wrong and that they don't own the world.  They are NOT the only ones here.

[curiosityandthecat]

Hear, hear.

[rlrose328]

Ooooo... I got a "hear hear" but no anima-graphic?  <pout>

 

[curiosityandthecat]

Ooooo... I got a "hear hear" but no anima-graphic?  <pout>

 

Ah, gee. I'm sorry. How about a floating dog?

[PipeBox]

This isn't really a justification at large, because I've answered that before, but I'll say this time that not all religious people are happy.  For some it's just how they live.  I have a Christian friend, he and I are very close, and he is plagued with a fear of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  He doesn't adhere to it closely, his religion, because I suppose he has trouble justifying it.  But it hangs around his neck like a millstone, and I'd rather he was happy.  I think he'd be happier without the belief.

[Godschild]

This isn't really a justification at large, because I've answered that before, but I'll say this time that not all religious people are happy. For some it's just how they live. I have a Christian friend, he and I are very close, and he is plagued with a fear of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. He doesn't adhere to it closely, his religion, because I suppose he has trouble justifying it. But it hangs around his neck like a millstone, and I'd rather he was happy. I think he'd be happier without the belief.

You are right about some christians wearing their faith around their necks and letting it burden them.I know that your main concern for your friend is his happiness and not how or what he believes.Encourage him to study the Bible so he can reach a decision about what he believes.

[JillSwift]

This isn't really a justification at large, because I've answered that before, but I'll say this time that not all religious people are happy.  For some it's just how they live.  I have a Christian friend, he and I are very close, and he is plagued with a fear of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  He doesn't adhere to it closely, his religion, because I suppose he has trouble justifying it.  But it hangs around his neck like a millstone, and I'd rather he was happy.  I think he'd be happier without the belief.

Honestly, that doesn't sound like belief, that sounds like something far scarier: The fear that the belief may be right, without actually believing.
It's folks in that terrible position that I think would be well served by a friendly and gentle push in the right direction, namely a few lighthearted discussions about the internal inconsistencies of the definition of "god", biblical errancy and contradiction, etc.
Plus, just being around someone comfortable in their lack of belief in god helps, too.

[and2premiere]

I agree with the use of religion in society. Why stunt the growth of our next generation for things that don't have any proof of working.

I have a friend who is studying anthropology. Before he started his studies, he used to be a super conservative. It's weird because now he's loosened up a lot about the certainty of everything. It seems he's scared to let go because there's nothing else to believe in. It's hard to assure him that there are more things to believe in this life than religion.

I mean, ifthe only reason you don't want to leave something is because of fear of what they will do, then that's not a great situation (him leaving church because of fear). It's like being in an abusive relationship and the girl afraid of leaving.

[PipeBox]

Honestly, that doesn't sound like belief, that sounds like something far scarier: The fear that the belief may be right, without actually believing.
It's folks in that terrible position that I think would be well served by a friendly and gentle push in the right direction, namely a few lighthearted discussions about the internal inconsistencies of the definition of "god", biblical errancy and contradiction, etc.
Plus, just being around someone comfortable in their lack of belief in god helps, too.

You hit it on the head.  I've been giving him that gentle push, and he asks with statements, not questions, what the implications of a lack of belief in the Biblical God are, from my perspective.  He'll toss out a comment mid-sentence "and for a while there I didn't like being meaningless" which is not his belief under the Bible, but his hypothetical proposition that if he were to let go of his Christianity, he'd have no meaning, and his admittance he's been thinking over it.  Or at least, that's the vibe I get when we talk, but I'm not a shrink.  So I give him a reply, and he finds it acceptable.  In this case it was "Bah, it's liberating, not being bound to the walls, not being a structural support. It means you're free to wander the halls."

He offers no rebuttals to the philosophy I offer him, rather, he asks me if I'd like to discuss it further, though we often get sidetracked into more lighthearted conversation, like what he's programming or what music is good for listening.  He wants to be free of it, I think, but isn't sure he can be.  He often remarks that he just wishes he knew for sure, leaving it at that.  I wish I could tell him what he wants to hear, an argument that so thoroughly throttles his fear of hell that there's none left to overcome, but he'll have to realize the fear is ridiculous on his own, and that's no easy thing to do, even when you know why the idea of God just doesn't work.  I don't know enough about contradictions and errancy to go that route, but perhaps it'd be better if I didn't challenge the Bible directly.  It sounds strange to say, but I'd not do it because the other day he described himself as a gnostic Christian.  He really wants to believe that he does believe, and while it's hard to argue with logic, you can interpret the Bible day in and out, and he would be willing to stretch the words to the breaking points of their meaning if he thinks it'll save him, ironically saving his pain, his belief that he could yet burn in hell.  I just want him free of the millstone.

You are right about some christians wearing their faith around their necks and letting it burden them.I know that your main concern for your friend is his happiness and not how or what he believes.Encourage him to study the Bible so he can reach a decision about what he believes.

His cousin and roommate is a Calvinist that takes his faith very seriously.  I think the last thing he needs is another person telling him to go read the Bible.  Not only would he feel betrayed, as I'm the only person he knows that doesn't believe in the religion that's burdening him, it would also throw him for a loop until he figured out I was trying to be serious, not that I ever could be serious in that recommendation, knowing his situation.  What does the Bible offer that will make him feel better?  The Bible has nothing to offer him but endorsement of itself and the chance for him to burn in hell.  He doesn't even want to live forever now, but is naturally unsure when he'd ever want to die, so what will heaven offer him?  He would have God strip him of his freewill because he fears it, but he knows that, in a manner of speaking, you can't return God's gifts.  If man has free will on Earth, it must either be necessary or superior to a world with no free will.  If God is not malevolent, then free will must be maintained in heaven.  Eternity is a long time to be perfect.  Heaven is an interesting place to suffer for all eternity with an infinite amount of sin to match.

It's all such a headache for him, and I know why.  It's impossible to make sense of it all.  Too much to cope with, and trying to just feel good, to just feel loved, won't clear the problems from your mind.  You know what the funniest part of it all is?  Strip a little verse about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit out of the Bible, and I doubt he'd have a single qualm with it today.  And I'd just let him be.  Whoever thought it was a good idea to put that in, be it God or some unnamed author, was a fool.  It makes God a petty character who can't stand having one aspect of himself called names.  It's good for nothing but scaring Christians, presumably into submission, but apparently it's not even good for that, because I know of one that would rather doubt than live a life of a sick worry.  The Bible is a book of thought crimes, and whereas reality might seem a burden, after you cope with it, you never live with spite for it.  You never have to worry about sinning against it, and death really loses its sting.  Even as a Christian I used to fret and think of how horrible it would be to just die.  You don't cope with that as a Christian.  You try desperately to get around it.

My friend hangs on to the Bible not because it has wisdom, but because he's afraid of being damned.  What does that say about your religion?  

With full respect I'm glad it works for you.  But I would no sooner leave him to the Bible (which addresses none of the philosophy we've discussed, and only endorses his fears as legitimate) as something to think over than I would give him diesel to drink just because it was a liquid.

Tell me what verses will make him feel better.  I know exactly what will on my end.

[SSY]

The religious would be fine if they could keep their religion to themselves, but they seem to be rubbish at it, on the whole. There is so much preaching, prosltysing, accosting ( it still really annoys me when I get stopped by the god squad IN the uni ) etc, not to the mention the lost childhoods of so many kids, brought up in fear, as a vain attempt to justify and consolidate the parent's insane beliefs. They rob their children of intelectual growth and natural curiosity and brow beat others with their supposed moral superiority.

Thats why I don't like religion. If they could just believe in it themselves, and not try and force their beliefs on others, it would be A OK with me.

[karadan]

Ooooo... I got a "hear hear" but no anima-graphic?  <pout>

 :yay:  

[BuckeyeInNC]

Why debunk?

Because if we do not expose them as frauds, the nuts will run the asylum.

Why anyone would respect charlatans is beyond me.

Yes, some of them may do good work, but imagine how much MORE good work would be done if they didn't waste their time worshipping the non-existent?

Further, those religious people that do good work do so for humanitarian reasons.  It is their humanity that tempers their religious fanaticism and enables them to determine whether their faith is moral or not, not the reverse. . .

The religious "liberals" are sooo close to being such great humanitarians if they only just took the next step and stepped out of the darkness of religion.

[Jolly Sapper]

Its almost like trying to convince a friend that they are in a bad relationship, one where they are asked to give and give and give but when your friend asks for something in return all (s)he gets is an IOU (at best) or a punch to the face(at worst).  You really don't want to see your friend get hurt any more but you know that if you step in and force the issue (call the police, dust off your old base ball bat, try to stage an intervention) your friend will resent the help because it will be seen as an abrogation of their free will.

SO most of us non-believers try to debunk rather than legislate against theocracy and silly things and the dangerous things that religions seem hell bent on making happen.

[curiosityandthecat]

Hahahaha!  :bounce:

I just had to dig myself out of a hole. I was taking a call from a councillor with an IT query as i watched that gif. Unfortunately she thought i was giggling at her ineptitude at following the simplest of IT instructions.