The Most Hated Family in America

[Godless]

Man, I just saw this for the first time and I am disgusted that such despicable people are living in our country:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSFrNOnvtls

Watch it and a few of the other parts following it and tell me what you guys think...

[Will]

IMHO, the fact that they have slightly stronger views that your average Christian seems no more to the point than some schizophrenic people hear 24 voices whereas others only hear 4.

[Godless]

IMHO, the fact that they have slightly stronger views that your average Christian seems no more to the point than some schizophrenic people hear 24 voices whereas others only hear 4.

Not only that, but they actually hate America, which raises the question of why are they still living here if they hate it so much?

[Will]

They don't hate America, they hate aspects of America. So do I, actually. They hate homosexuals. I hate American Idol. No one exists that hates everything American, so the term "hate America" is a bit vague.

[McQ]

Have to disagree with Will on these guys. Westboro baptist church has views that are much more radical than the average christian in the U.S. And Mrs. Phelps, their acting leader (her father founded the church), really hates America. Not just some aspects of it. The only "America" she would like would be one where every single person (yes, every single one!) believes exactly as she does. That will never happen, so her message is that all of America is doomed. Even people who say they don't like the gay lifestyle or who don't agree with it are her enemy, because they don't believe all of her tenets.

Those folks are about as radical as fundies can get, without committing murder, which I'm sure she'd love to do with all the "fags" and "fag lovers" in the U.S.

They make me sick to my core.

[Tanker]

The news reporter is right that they are infamous amoung the military. Bikers now guar all military funerals they might show up at, they can do thing guys in a uniform can only dream.

[Will]

Have to disagree with Will on these guys. Westboro baptist church has views that are much more radical than the average christian in the U.S.

The only difference is the level of devotion, the beliefs are basically the same. Even here in California we can't legalize gay marriage.

And Mrs. Phelps, their acting leader (her father founded the church), really hates America. Not just some aspects of it. The only "America" she would like would be one where every single person (yes, every single one!) believes exactly as she does. That will never happen, so her message is that all of America is doomed. Even people who say they don't like the gay lifestyle or who don't agree with it are her enemy, because they don't believe all of her tenets.

I guess I hate America, too. I'd be a lot happier if everyone were atheists, or at least agnostic. I'd be a lot happier if people were more pragmatic in their every-day life. I'd be a lot happier if crazy, hateful people would be pitied and marginalized. And it's my belief that if the crazies keep getting the attention in the US, we could be "doomed" to losing our place as the seminal economic and military world power.

I'm concerned about putting too much separation between radical fundamentalists and run of the mill fundamentalists. Westboro represents pretty much the worst of fundamentalism, but there are a heaping hell of a lot of people following closely behind them in the running. Even many (relatively) liberal churches preach hatred, especially for homosexuals. It would be helpful if religious people that are just as disgusted as you and me with Westboro could be clued in to the fact that they're being taught the same hatred.

They make me sick to my core.

On this we are in total agreement. It takes a serious amount of hatred and ignorance to make me question free speech, but Westboro puts me right on the cusp.

[Tom62]

And there is nothing that can be done against these mentally insane people? They are obviously very sick.

[Godless]

IMO, they should be ousted from our country...

[McQ]

The only difference is the level of devotion, the beliefs are basically the same. Even here in California we can't legalize gay marriage.

Well, the level of devotion is certainly about as high as it can get with the members of Westboro, that's for sure. I'm still not 100% sure the beliefs are that similar to whatever we would define as the "average" christian in America. We all know people who claim christianity as their faith. The thing is, they are all so different, both as individuals and as sects within christianity. It's hard to nail it down. But I'd have to say that the vast majority of christian Americans don't "hate" America and wish it be doomed, or hate everyone else who doesn't believe, word for word, what they themselves believe. Westboro does.

There are absolutely other fundies around who believe and preach similar hate messages. But like Westboro, they are in the vocal minority. Sadly, we don't really do anything about them, although what is there to do except try and ignore them?

As far as legalizing gay marriages is concerned, I think it hasn't happened more because of ignorance than because of hate. Not that it means it's ok, but there's a difference between not fully understanding something and being "against" it due to ignorance than truly hating something based on dogmatic and unyielding ideology. So I think that we can see a change in the country as a whole on the issue of gay marriage soon, but we'll always have a minority of dogmatic, doom-preaching haters out there.

I guess I hate America, too. I'd be a lot happier if everyone were atheists, or at least agnostic. I'd be a lot happier if people were more pragmatic in their every-day life. I'd be a lot happier if crazy, hateful people would be pitied and marginalized. And it's my belief that if the crazies keep getting the attention in the US, we could be "doomed" to losing our place as the seminal economic and military world power.

I hear you, Will. But don't you think that what you "hate" about America is a far cry from the level of true hatred that Westboro feels? Play along with me here: For example, do you actually want everyone who doesn't agree 100% with you to die and suffer eternal torment? Everyone. No exceptions. Additionally, you would not be willing to actively try to change their beliefs, but only be willing to inflame them by telling them that is what you wish?
Or do you simply really dislike/hate certain aspects of the country, either political, social, or other enough that you would be willing to raise a voice in protest, or be willing to go to jail to support change in those areas? I don't know for sure, but I'd guess more towards the latter.

I'm concerned about putting too much separation between radical fundamentalists and run of the mill fundamentalists. Westboro represents pretty much the worst of fundamentalism, but there are a heaping hell of a lot of people following closely behind them in the running. Even many (relatively) liberal churches preach hatred, especially for homosexuals. It would be helpful if religious people that are just as disgusted as you and me with Westboro could be clued in to the fact that they're being taught the same hatred.

I gotta say, I've never heard of any even moderately liberal christian churches preaching hatred towards gays. And a fundie is a fundie is a fundie, by definition. "Conservative" christian churches play a role here. Different than fundies. They, for the most part, go by the strict christian teaching of, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." Even the southern baptist churches I was a member of were mostly in this camp. And they were fundamentalist christian churches. It all depends on each particular congergation with them. Point is that the majority of christian teaching on this is screwed up. They want to love the sinner and hate the sin, but at the same time they are scared to support gay rights, because of fear of the unknown: what will it do to society and the "traditional" family?

They can never seem to define their fears, and fall back on dogma. But they don't "hate" and want the entire country to fail and go to a literal hell. Again, yes there are fundies who do, and I know some personally (I actively broke off friendships with those folks).
 

On this we are in total agreement. It takes a serious amount of hatred and ignorance to make me question free speech, but Westboro puts me right on the cusp.

I agree with you for sure on this. Puts me on the cusp, too, man! This is one area that I am willing to fight for, and fight actively against (total equal rights for all people, regardless of sexual orientation). I've supported it in our local school system, through helping with a gay and lesbian student alliance in our high school (imagine how popular that made me in a community of Mennonites!). My wife's boss is a lesbian activist. She and I will be in Washington, D.C. this spring, for some activities there.

All we can do is start to make efforts in areas around us locally, and keep pushing. Keep people talking about it and put a face to the issue (when did I climb up on this soapbox? I don't remember getting up here    )

Anyway, I think we all "hate" certain aspects of the country and want to see major changes in those areas. I just don't think it's anywhere near the level of insane, frothing desire as the Phelps family and Westboro.

And I have to add that I don't know how I would react if they ever came here and tried to pull that shit at a funeral locally. All I know is that it would probably get very ugly.

[seasonsofmadness]

They actually protested my cousin's funeral. I wasn't there to see it though.

[VanReal]

Geepers, I'm surprised nothing has happened to them.  And they aren't even attempting to "save souls" like most Christians, it's really sad that the kids are involved and just goes to show hate is a learned behavior. (Although I think we all know that.)  I bet those kids are home schooled.

[Will]

Hahaha... holy crap.

Well, the level of devotion is certainly about as high as it can get with the members of Westboro, that's for sure. I'm still not 100% sure the beliefs are that similar to whatever we would define as the "average" christian in America. We all know people who claim christianity as their faith. The thing is, they are all so different, both as individuals and as sects within christianity. It's hard to nail it down. But I'd have to say that the vast majority of christian Americans don't "hate" America and wish it be doomed, or hate everyone else who doesn't believe, word for word, what they themselves believe. Westboro does.

Back in maybe October I was over at my dad's church, probably dropping off clothes for the homeless people there. I noticed a bulletin insert on his desk about Prop 8. I was taken aback as I read it; it was essentially an order from Jesus to vote Yes on 8. My dad's church is LCMS, but it's one of the more liberal churches I've been in. Most of the sermons are about giving freely, loving unconditionally, peace, harmonyâ€"the greater angels of the church's nature. This insert, however, might as well have been written by the Mormon church. It was full of lies and exaggerations and hatred. I demanded that my father not include it, citing that it was a gross violation of the church's tax exempt status. I had to threaten to call in the church to convince him to remove it (he thanked me later). I was glad to have convinced my father not to include it, but I was horrified to find out that the insert was from the synod and it went out to every church in California. Moreover, there were other churches in the areaâ€"Lutheran, Pentecostal, Methodist, etc.â€"that were doing similar things, I found out. And this isn't in Oklahoma or Louisiana, this is in San Jose and San Francisco, home to some of the more liberal Christians in the country. Even very liberal counties like my own voted to remove the rights of homosexuals.

I'll admit that before October, I was optimistic that the hatred we see from the loudest and most extreme Christians wasn't shared by the majority. Now, I'm really not so sure. They hate gay people so much they're willing to just vote away their rights.

There are absolutely other fundies around who believe and preach similar hate messages. But like Westboro, they are in the vocal minority. Sadly, we don't really do anything about them, although what is there to do except try and ignore them?

As far as legalizing gay marriages is concerned, I think it hasn't happened more because of ignorance than because of hate. Not that it means it's ok, but there's a difference between not fully understanding something and being "against" it due to ignorance than truly hating something based on dogmatic and unyielding ideology. So I think that we can see a change in the country as a whole on the issue of gay marriage soon, but we'll always have a minority of dogmatic, doom-preaching haters out there.

I think it was Yoda that said "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." It's a bit simplistic, but it demonstrates what I see are a sequence of connected emotions that are in play here. In my opinion you can't have hatred without ignorance, and we're talking about the kind of ignorance that causes people to strip away the rights of others. It's too active to be free of hate. One could argue that judging someone based on their sexual preference is already hatred, but to not only judge them but actively attack their rights? That smacks of hatred.

I hear you, Will. But don't you think that what you "hate" about America is a far cry from the level of true hatred that Westboro feels? Play along with me here: For example, do you actually want everyone who doesn't agree 100% with you to die and suffer eternal torment? Everyone. No exceptions. Additionally, you would not be willing to actively try to change their beliefs, but only be willing to inflame them by telling them that is what you wish?
Or do you simply really dislike/hate certain aspects of the country, either political, social, or other enough that you would be willing to raise a voice in protest, or be willing to go to jail to support change in those areas? I don't know for sure, but I'd guess more towards the latter.

I reached a point of frustration with the Bush administration where I actively seek their imprisonment. I've written my congresswoman and senator about investigating many members of the administration several times. Even now, as they're no longer in power, I want them investigated, tried and imprisoned. If someone were to dial my frustration and anger by a factor of a thousand, who knows? I can't remember a time in my life where I was so angry I wanted to kill anyone, but something they teach us in psychology school is everyone is capable of that kind of thinking.

I honestly think the line is actually attempting murder. If the nutters from Westboro actually attempted to harm a homosexual, that's when they'd go from similar to dissimilar from many other theists in my mind. Suicide bombers and zealots are the others, those separate people that cannot be lumped in. Before the cowardly ignorance turns to making good on the threats, it's just saber rattling; fear causing anger, anger causing hate. It's when that hatred leads to suffering that I'm talking about.

I agree with you for sure on this. Puts me on the cusp, too, man! This is one area that I am willing to fight for, and fight actively against (total equal rights for all people, regardless of sexual orientation). I've supported it in our local school system, through helping with a gay and lesbian student alliance in our high school (imagine how popular that made me in a community of Mennonites!). My wife's boss is a lesbian activist. She and I will be in Washington, D.C. this spring, for some activities there.

That's awesome!

All we can do is start to make efforts in areas around us locally, and keep pushing. Keep people talking about it and put a face to the issue (when did I climb up on this soapbox? I don't remember getting up here    )

Anyway, I think we all "hate" certain aspects of the country and want to see major changes in those areas. I just don't think it's anywhere near the level of insane, frothing desire as the Phelps family and Westboro.

And I have to add that I don't know how I would react if they ever came here and tried to pull that shit at a funeral locally. All I know is that it would probably get very ugly.

Other organizations have out-protested them, which I think is a great option. I remember an image of dozens, maybe hundreds of bikers holding American flags, drowning out the presence of Westboro at a funeral. It was wonderful.

If I found out they were planning a protest of some sort here, I'd reserve the location first with the city and the police.

[karadan]

After watching the Louis Theroux programme where he stayed with them for a few weeks, apart from being enraged, I realised something; Most of the westboro baptist church don't actually believe what they are spouting. They have just been conditioned from birth to say it. Because it goes against the grain of humanity, most of them must feel something is not right but the mental barriers in their heads are just too tightly wound. I don't even think the father believes it but he did come across as a massively twisted and evil man - waaaay beyond any form of rehabilitation. His insanity is obvious. It is just incredibly sad he is so hugely persuasive. It is the children I feel most sorry for. They don't stand a chance. When Louis asked one of the kids "what is a fag" he was, of course, unable to answer. The mother had to interject and speak for her son. It was all very saddening. It is the indoctrination of children into this monstrosity of a belief system I think there should be laws against. At least that way it would cut off the supply of peons and halt the proliferation of such a perverse school of thought.

There is NOTHING like this church in the UK. There is the BNP - who are bad enough, but they shine like beacons of magnificence when compared to the westboro church. I'm quite sure that if anything like that started up here, they'd disappear very quickly. They just wouldn't be allowed to rally. The police would probably take care of it, but if they couldn't by law, the public would deal with it themselves. I'd like to see them turn up to a British state funeral. They'd be ripped to shreds.

I am a pacifist and I believe all humans have the right to life but if the leaders of that cult accidentally got splattered by a train, I'd probably laugh and clap.

[McQ]

Hahaha... holy crap.

Back in maybe October I was over at my dad's church, probably dropping off clothes for the homeless people there. I noticed a bulletin insert on his desk about Prop 8. I was taken aback as I read it; it was essentially an order from Jesus to vote Yes on 8. My dad's church is LCMS, but it's one of the more liberal churches I've been in. Most of the sermons are about giving freely, loving unconditionally, peace, harmonyâ€"the greater angels of the church's nature. This insert, however, might as well have been written by the Mormon church. It was full of lies and exaggerations and hatred. I demanded that my father not include it, citing that it was a gross violation of the church's tax exempt status. I had to threaten to call in the church to convince him to remove it (he thanked me later). I was glad to have convinced my father not to include it, but I was horrified to find out that the insert was from the synod and it went out to every church in California. Moreover, there were other churches in the areaâ€"Lutheran, Pentecostal, Methodist, etc.â€"that were doing similar things, I found out. And this isn't in Oklahoma or Louisiana, this is in San Jose and San Francisco, home to some of the more liberal Christians in the country. Even very liberal counties like my own voted to remove the rights of homosexuals.

Talk about holy crap! Man, that blew me away! Honestly, I had never seen that kind of thing, but what you've shared is very eye-opening. Stunning, in fact. We haven't dealt with a Prop 8 situation yet, so you've reminded me that my viewpoint of this is pretty limited. I keep thinking just because I live in a strict religious community and hadn't seen that type of hatred, that I could extrapolate to the entire country safely. Apparently not!  Kudos on getting your dad to listen to you, Will.

I'll admit that before October, I was optimistic that the hatred we see from the loudest and most extreme Christians wasn't shared by the majority. Now, I'm really not so sure. They hate gay people so much they're willing to just vote away their rights.

I think it was Yoda that said "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." It's a bit simplistic, but it demonstrates what I see are a sequence of connected emotions that are in play here. In my opinion you can't have hatred without ignorance, and we're talking about the kind of ignorance that causes people to strip away the rights of others. It's too active to be free of hate. One could argue that judging someone based on their sexual preference is already hatred, but to not only judge them but actively attack their rights? That smacks of hatred.

Those are good points. Plus, how can one deny the wisdom of Yoda!

I honestly think the line is actually attempting murder. If the nutters from Westboro actually attempted to harm a homosexual, that's when they'd go from similar to dissimilar from many other theists in my mind. Suicide bombers and zealots are the others, those separate people that cannot be lumped in. Before the cowardly ignorance turns to making good on the threats, it's just saber rattling; fear causing anger, anger causing hate. It's when that hatred leads to suffering that I'm talking about.

Ok, I see where you're coming from here. I think I was drawing the line somewhere else, but I understand this delineation.

Other organizations have out-protested them, which I think is a great option. I remember an image of dozens, maybe hundreds of bikers holding American flags, drowning out the presence of Westboro at a funeral. It was wonderful.

If I found out they were planning a protest of some sort here, I'd reserve the location first with the city and the police.

I didn't realize that they had been counter-protested successfully. That's encouraging to know. I would love to see them mess with an enormous group of bikers. Oh man, I think I'd pay big money for a front row seat at that rally!

Excellent idea on reserving the locations ahead of them. If possible that's probably the best way to hit them...before they can even get to a spot.