Another preachers son...

[seasonsofmadness]

I thought I should probably identify myself a bit before I post anything else...

So I grew up in a conservative church of christ family, went to church 3 times a week, and was home schooled. I really never liked the idea of God and the bible, but I was always told about all this evidence that showed the bible was right, so I figured obeying was better than burning in an eternal lake of fire. I'm in college now, and over the past couple of years, I've put a lot of thought into how impossible it is keep all the biblical commandments. I figured probably 99.99% or so of everybody on earth would go to hell, and I was probably included in that number. At this point, I thought it might be good to look at some other  possibilities.  I thought about 4 basic categories of "evidence" for the bible that I was always told about:

1. Evidence from the fact that the many books of the bible, written centuries apart, by different authors, miraculously agree with each other
2. Scientific evidence
3. Historic evidence
4. The evidence of fulfilled prophesies


Number 1 was easily dismissed, not because I knew of contradictions in the bible(I was told they could all be easily explained), but because I knew that man decides what is "really" part of the bible. And any book with enormous, obvious contradiction would (in theory) not be considered a book of the bible to begin with, so all that would be left are the books that basically agree with each other. Nothing miraculous about that. At the time I didn't realize how poorly they actually fit together.

Number 2 was next, so I looked up lists of scientific evidence for the bible, and started realizing the meaninglessness of it. Statements like "the life of the flesh is in the blood" hardly seemed to count as miraculous scientific statements.

Then number 3. I had always heard about all the historic accounts documenting Jesus' life, so that no one could deny it. I guess I always assumed that there was tons documentation of his life and fulfillment of prophecy, but I soon found that was totally untrue. I found that at best, history records a teacher named Jesus, who was crucified. Again, nothing miraculous about that.  

Number 4 seemed like a hard one to disprove. How could they have made all those predictions, if not through God? As I begin reading an article on the subject, I could hardly believe how misled I had been. I could hardly believe how terribly verses and history had been misconstrued, in order to say that prophesies had been fulfilled.  I kept looking verses up in my Bible to make sure, and it just seemed so ridiculous that such obvious falsehoods are overlooked by so many people.

So last night, after reading about the prophesies, I finally admitted to myself that the Bible is in fact, nothing more than a book written by men, and that I am no longer bound by it. I felt a great inner peace, and then thought about how Christians always say that life is empty without God. In a way I feel dumb for believing these things for so long, but I'm glad that I finally know the truth.

Now I just have to figure  out how to tell the parents...

[Kyuuketsuki]

So I grew up in a conservative church of christ family, went to church 3 times a week, and was home schooled. I really never liked the idea of God and the bible, but I was always told about all this evidence that showed the bible was right, so I figured obeying was better than burning in an eternal lake of fire.

Not as bad as yours sounds but I was brought up and educated as a Catholic which I regard as the most fundy of the mainstream Christian religions.

Number 1 was easily dismissed, not because I knew of contradictions in the bible(I was told they could all be easily explained), but because I knew that man decides what is "really" part of the bible. And any book with enormous, obvious contradiction would (in theory) not be considered a book of the bible to begin with, so all that would be left are the books that basically agree with each other. Nothing miraculous about that. At the time I didn't realize how poorly they actually fit together.

So you reckon the books that remain (66/60 or whatever it is) were only chosen because the others were just a bit too whacky for the selectors? Interesting idea that I'd never thought of before ... I'd assumed they had a agenda about control and so on.

Number 2 was next, so I looked up lists of scientific evidence for the bible, and started realizing the meaninglessness of it. Statements like "the life of the flesh is in the blood" hardly seemed to count as miraculous scientific statements.

Do you have any internet links for these lists?

Then number 3. I had always heard about all the historic accounts documenting Jesus' life, so that no one could deny it. I guess I always assumed that there was tons documentation of his life and fulfillment of prophecy, but I soon found that was totally untrue. I found that at best, history records a teacher named Jesus, who was crucified. Again, nothing miraculous about that.

I wonder if there ever was a real Jesus at all.

Number 4 seemed like a hard one to disprove. How could they have made all those predictions, if not through God? As I begin reading an article on the subject, I could hardly believe how misled I had been. I could hardly believe how terribly verses and history had been misconstrued, in order to say that prophesies had been fulfilled.  I kept looking verses up in my Bible to make sure, and it just seemed so ridiculous that such obvious falsehoods are overlooked by so many people.

Many of the predictions are fulfilled within the bible and so can be argued as irrelevant but yes, the others require varying degrees of twisted interpretation to fit.

Now I just have to figure out how to tell the parents...

Personally I favour the truth, it's what I do with my mother but my parents did seem to promote freedom of thought even if they were shocked when all 4 of us ceased to be religious... I can see that for others (perhaps you) it may be far more difficult. Well done on getting this far, good luck and welcome to the forum.

Kyu

[seasonsofmadness]

So you reckon the books that remain (66/60 or whatever it is) were only chosen because the others were just a bit too whacky for the selectors? Interesting idea that I'd never thought of before ... I'd assumed they had a agenda about control and so on.

Yeah I'm sure there is the control issue, but when you get told that the Bible must be true because all the books make since, and that the "false" books of the Bible can't be true because they don't make since, it makes you think.

Do you have any internet links for these lists?

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Sci ... -Bible.php
http://www.newtestamentchurch.org/html/ ... _Bible.htm

Personally I favour the truth, it's what I do with my mother but my parents did seem to promote freedom of thought even if they were shocked when all 4 of us ceased to be religious... I can see that for others (perhaps you) it may be far more difficult. Well done on getting this far, good luck and welcome to the forum.

I figure my dad will try to make me study with him anyway if I just tell him that I reject the Bible and religion, so I'm thinking I will show him a very good article which I've found, and ask him how he can explain it. Assuming that he isn't able to, I can then reject the bible, and it will be obvious why. Won't be as shocking that way, and then can't be like "well if you had questions, why didn't you ask me?"

My brother (who we don't really talk to anymore) rejected the Bible a couple years back, and didn't give any good reasons (or so my parents tell me), so I was told that he only rejected the bible because he didn't want to change his bad lifestyle. I just don't want the same to be said about me.

[Sophus]

Welcome. Good to have you, son of a preacher-man.

Now I just have to figure out how to tell the parents...

Having once been a Christian too I know that you're not really free until you "come out of the religious closet." You'll feel much better. As far as how to do it.... maybe via written word? Gives them time to chew it over before they approach you about it.

[DennisK]

I figure my dad will try to make me study with him anyway if I just tell him that I reject the Bible and religion, so I'm thinking I will show him a very good article which I've found, and ask him how he can explain it. Assuming that he isn't able to, I can then reject the bible, and it will be obvious why. Won't be as shocking that way, and then can't be like "well if you had questions, why didn't you ask me?"

My brother (who we don't really talk to anymore) rejected the Bible a couple years back, and didn't give any good reasons (or so my parents tell me), so I was told that he only rejected the bible because he didn't want to change his bad lifestyle. I just don't want the same to be said about me.

I don't know how open minded your folks are, but most theists I have known are not open to logic and reasoning.  Rather they create their own perceived logic and reasoning learned from indoctrination.  I don't know if it is a good thing to go into a discussion with the preconception that your father will see the logic you bring.  Then again, I don't know your relationship.

[seasonsofmadness]

I don't know how open minded your folks are, but most theists I have known are not open to logic and reasoning.  Rather they create their own perceived logic and reasoning learned from indoctrination.  I don't know if it is a good thing to go into a discussion with the preconception that your father will see the logic you bring.  Then again, I don't know your relationship.

Actually my parents are extremely closed minded. What I was trying to say, basically, is that I'll just give my dad a chance to explain away the article (this one, I think it's pretty good http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... phecy.html), and since I'm pretty sure there's no way that he could explain it all, I can then reject the Bible. I know that he won't agree with me, but maybe he can at least feel that I was trying to be fair by discussing it with him first. And I'll do as much of it as possible over email, to hopefully avoid too big a fight. I'm pretty sure my parents are gonna disown me though...

[DennisK]

I don't know how open minded your folks are, but most theists I have known are not open to logic and reasoning.  Rather they create their own perceived logic and reasoning learned from indoctrination.  I don't know if it is a good thing to go into a discussion with the preconception that your father will see the logic you bring.  Then again, I don't know your relationship.

Actually my parents are extremely closed minded. What I was trying to say, basically, is that I'll just give my dad a chance to explain away the article (this one, I think it's pretty good http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... phecy.html), and since I'm pretty sure there's no way that he could explain it all, I can then reject the Bible. I know that he won't agree with me, but maybe he can at least feel that I was trying to be fair by discussing it with him first. And I'll do as much of it as possible over email, to hopefully avoid too big a fight. I'm pretty sure my parents are gonna disown me though...

For what it's worth, I would try to open and close the conversation (make it face-to-face) with something to the effect that you love and appreciate what your dad has done for you and in no way will your changed beliefs effect this.  Sandwiching your proclamation in love can greatly soften the blow to him.  Rather than email links, try and paraphrase ideas during your face-to-face meeting backing your thought process.  Treat it like a debate, but keep it as pleasant and as possible.  If properly thought out, your father might be able to see your perspective.  At the very least, he will see you have put a lot of thought into your decision.  Good luck.

[Will]

Welcome to the forum. I'm glad to have you here.

I figure my dad will try to make me study with him anyway if I just tell him that I reject the Bible and religion, so I'm thinking I will show him a very good article which I've found, and ask him how he can explain it. Assuming that he isn't able to, I can then reject the bible, and it will be obvious why. Won't be as shocking that way, and then can't be like "well if you had questions, why didn't you ask me?"

As another son of a preacher (LCMS), I'd suggest something simple like applying the simple logic of Epicurus.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?  Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?  Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
I can pretty much guarantee that he will respond in at least one of two ways my father responded, "That's one of the mysteries of the universe..." or "God is above reason...", each of which are obvious cop-outs. While it can be fun to start a debate about the similarities between Mythros and Jesus or the hypocrisy of the Council of Nicea, ultimately they're just overly complex debates that circle the heart of the issue; there's no reason to believe in the supernatural.

My father isn't at peace about my world view, but he has accepted it. I hope that you can have a similarly successful outcome to informing your parents.

My brother (who we don't really talk to anymore) rejected the Bible a couple years back, and didn't give any good reasons (or so my parents tell me), so I was told that he only rejected the bible because he didn't want to change his bad lifestyle. I just don't want the same to be said about me.

Have you spoken to him? My little brother has had a few conversations with me about his departure from faith, and I think we both found them to be very constructive.

[seasonsofmadness]

Thanks everybody, I really appreciate all the responses.

For what it's worth, I would try to open and close the conversation (make it face-to-face) with something to the effect that you love and appreciate what your dad has done for you and in no way will your changed beliefs effect this.  Sandwiching your proclamation in love can greatly soften the blow to him.  Rather than email links, try and paraphrase ideas during your face-to-face meeting backing your thought process.  Treat it like a debate, but keep it as pleasant and as possible.  If properly thought out, your father might be able to see your perspective.  At the very least, he will see you have put a lot of thought into your decision.  Good luck.

This probably would be a good way to deal with most sensible parents, however, my dad lives for senseless heated arguments. With everybody. Which is a lot of why I would not want to do it face to face. And because of the way he is, I never tell him I love him, nor do I wish to. I know it's sad, but my family is pretty screwed up.
 

As another son of a preacher (LCMS), I'd suggest something simple like applying the simple logic of Epicurus.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?  Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?  Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
I can pretty much guarantee that he will respond in at least one of two ways my father responded, "That's one of the mysteries of the universe..." or "God is above reason...", each of which are obvious cop-outs.

My dad knows that one, but he just says that God was nice enough to give us free will, and let us be evil if we want.

Have you spoken to him? My little brother has had a few conversations with me about his departure from faith, and I think we both found them to be very constructive.

I've been meaning to talk to him, the only reason I haven't gotten around to it is because the only way to get ahold of him is to write him a letter (on paper). But yeah, I need to.

[Whitney]

Welcome to the forum, seasons.

[Will]

My dad knows that one, but he just says that God was nice enough to give us free will, and let us be evil if we want.

This assumes all of the evil in the world stems from an act of human free will, which isn't the case. I'm sure he wouldn't argue that a tsunami or earthquake results from an act of human free will. These are occurrences of unimaginable destruction and suffering which an omnipotent god could prevent, but doesn't, leading us to Epicurus.

I've been meaning to talk to him, the only reason I haven't gotten around to it is because the only way to get a hold of him is to write him a letter (on paper). But yeah, I need to.

That's certainly interesting. I can't imagine a better circumstance to practice writing instead of typing.

[seasonsofmadness]

I'm sure he wouldn't argue that a tsunami or earthquake results from an act of human free will. These are occurrences of unimaginable destruction and suffering which an omnipotent god could prevent, but doesn't, leading us to Epicurus.

I'm pretty sure he would argue that natural disasters are a result of Adam and Eve's sins.

I just emailed my dad and started the "coming out of the religious closet" process. I told him that I've been looking into all the "Biblical evidence," and that none of it, to me, counted as real evidence. I briefly explained why I have rejected the "evidence" that I've found on the internet, and asked him if he has some "good evidence" that I've missed out on.

To be logical, I would still be willing to accept the Bible if my dad did produce some actual evidence, not that I find that likely at all. He might immediately look at the letter and say I'm an atheist, or he could just think I'm asking some good christian questions. But either way, we can discuss it, and then hopefully he will understand why I believe what I do.

[keith2004]

Welcome....Preachers Son Turned Atheist Here too,

Its Funny how so many PKs Turn out to be Atheists

[MariaEvri]

I'm pretty sure he would argue that natural disasters are a result of Adam and Eve's sins.

.

I always hated that excuse
Its like saying Im killing my grandchildren because my son disobeyed me once a looong time ago
anyway we'd like to see your dad;s responce

[Will]

I'm pretty sure he would argue that natural disasters are a result of Adam and Eve's sins.

Exactly; a punishment from god, by god, for something two people that probably didn't exist supposedly did.

My dad eats a lot of fatty and sugary foods. As a result, should I be fat? Probably not. Assuming god designed the universe, it seems clear that punishment is visited upon the guilty in nature. And our morality has evolved to understand the world in those terms. So why would god make the rules and then break them? Is a god that punishes the world for the sins of individuals that died at the very least 6000 year ago worth worshiping?

But I get the point; your dad probably won't care if your argument is sound or not.