Same old question...

[BadPoison]

It seems to me, that anytime a Christian discovers that I'm an Atheist, they always end up asking me the same question:
"So what happens to you when you die?"

It's as if they really think that this is the end-all trump-all question. I believe the reason they think this question is so showstopping is because they really haven't thought about the question themselves!
I'll respond in different ways - but usually I'll point out, just as Mark Twain did, that I was dead for four billion years before I was alive and never suffered a single inconvenience from it.

The very fact that this is the question that all Christians seem to ask illustrates to me how gripping their indoctrination is. Because they've been told for so long, that if they don't do what the bible tells them to do they'll end up eternally damned. To me, the idea that I can now live my life without some ancient dogma restricting what I can and can't do is quite liberating. The fact that almost every Christian asks us this question just shows me that they haven't thought about what death really means to them. I think that most haven't ever asked themselves the question - "Why is death so bad?" Or more to the point- "Why do I have this fear in the back of my mind about thinking anything different than what I'm told to think."

I truly believe that the vast majority of Christians profess they "believe" because they are really scared of the idea of Hell. Sure, most of them really think they feel god's love - but isn't this just the mind trying to rationalize why they won't suffer eternal damnation? "I love god, he loves me. I know it because I feel his love. So I'm sure I'm saved. I'm so lucky to know the truth and to be saved."
If you ask a Christian "What if there is no heaven?" They will usually respond with "Well, at least I know that I won't be going to hell". The fear of Hell is so gripping that many would rather do whatever they can to stay out of hell than to get into heaven.
 
I ask my Christian friends if they think they value their life more than I value mine. At first they usually say "Yes, of course we value our life more than an Atheist would." But then when I point out that the Atheist is convinced that this life is likely it - and that he/she has still managed to find a reason to live for - they usually see things a little differently. An Atheist must experience life more fully than anyone that believes in an afterlife. Every day for the Atheist is so much more important. When you remove the "heaven" concept it seems you get rid of the Christian safety net. If there was no "heaven" Christians would likely not think of their current life as just a holding tank until the next.

I'm really not sure where I was going with this - as I haven't said anything any of you haven't heard before. And in re-reading my points seem sporadic. I guess I just wanted to put some of this in my own words after having a rather frustrating conversation with a friend.
Thanks for reading.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I usually say my brain stops working (don't say a word!!!!!), my body decays and I cease to be ... job done.

Usually then I'll make a quip about my plan to prevent it making the observation "so far so good"

Kyu

[Sophus]

I had this discussion of capacity to value life with a clergy man. I told him "today can never be appreciated to the fullest when there is an infinite supply of tomorrows." After our discussion he actually acknowledged that "I had him beat" when it came to savoring this life.

Although it is interesting. Christians believe they will live forever and yet death seems such a serious topic for them.

[Arthur Dent]

Consciousness is nothing more than the networking of synapses. I still can't believe that people think the conscious experience transcends or exists outside of matter; like their conscious experience cannot be destroyed or ended.

Oh yeah? Then go get drunk, take some drugs, fall off a skateboard and hit your head, have a surgeon scramble your brains a bit (or maybe just read about that one).

Death is nothing special, and when the brain cannot be maintained, consciousness ends. Simple as that.

[Kevin]

I have had/I do have the exact same thoughts on this as you do.. Especially when it comes to Christians fearing death.
BUT
I do got to say this:
There is this really religious kid that I know, he's pretty cool. He was telling me and this other kid (He knows I'm basically an Atheist, and the other kid is really Christian to, but me and him talk about it and he doesn't care) about what happened to him in Kroger:

This guy sneezed, and the kid say "God bless you".
The guy turned around and said, "I'm an Atheist"
The kid said, "I was just saying God bless you because I can't bless you"
The Atheist said, "Well what do you think will happen to you after you die"?
The kid turned around and said, "I believe that if I have lived a good life, that I will go to Heaven. What do you believe"?
The Atheist said, "I believe that when I am dead I will be buried, and I will decompose and turn into a great Oak in the woods"
(THE FUNNY PART) the kid said, "Well when you turn into a great Oak, you will be cut down and chopped into smaller pieces where you will be sent to a factory and turned into paper, which they make the Bible out of!"
The guy then said nothing and walked away

^^Thought it was on-subject and funny :p
True story

[Arthur Dent]

^^Thought it was on-subject and funny :p
True story

Not a true story. He ripped it off from Dane Cook's "Vicious Circle" DVD...

[nikkixsugar]

I usually say my brain stops working (don't say a word!!!!!)

So what's the difference? Sorry Kyu, I couldn't resist, and apologize in advance!

[Kevin]

^^Thought it was on-subject and funny :p
True story

Not a true story. He ripped it off from Dane Cook's "Vicious Circle" DVD...

Either damn way
It's still funny

Or maybe he did take it, and used it at Kroger, which makes it funnier.
But I don't listen to Dane Cook cause I don't like him, so idk

[Wechtlein Uns]

Xtian -- "God bless you!"
Atheist -- "Doubt it."
Xtian -- "why?"
Atheist -- BAAM! BAAM! BAAM! BAAM! BAAM! BAAM!
Xtian -- *weakly* "wwwhhyy...?"

I don't know how the above applies. But I think it's funny.

[dodgecity]

@BadPoison: Great topic! Thanks for that Mark Twain quote, I had heard it before but had forgotten who it came from.

@Arthur Dent:

Consciousness is nothing more than the networking of synapses.

You couldn't have put that more aptly. You certainly trumped my private rationale in terms of lucid and acrid articulation. I will be quoting that verbatim if I find myself in a conversation of this sort. I was so impressed that I googled the phrase, because I couldn't believe it was original. But to no avail. (no results,lol)

I've observed a trend in my life where I am finding things to be merely what they are, resenting those realizations as evolution intended, and eventually giving in to the evidence suggesting that I am merely what I am.

That's why I always hated the title "Mere Christianity." Religion is anything but mere, it demonizes mereness(not a word) as if it were a shame to be merely what we are and nothing more.

I too am perplexed at this fear of death people have, atheists included. It's not a fear of the unknown. One need not personally experience something to know of it. (In fact, personal anecdotes are one of the least accurate sources of knowledge) And death is easy to know of; it is merely the absence of life.It is wholly irrational to fear postmortem vacuity. My father's friend committed suicide this past week, and the first thing I asked was "Did he suffer?" My father showed no interest in this, only in the location of the guy's soul. What a fucked up way of thinking.

That reminds me, I read this suicide note once(no one i knew) and it has affected my thoughts about death ever since. I'm not promoting her actions, but I have always been moved my her words.

I wake and tear through the space of day, through utterances and shouts of short sightedness and and shortcomings. I make it to the night, but peace is too brief and there is a day looming over my head, and it never ends.

I am ready to take action, to end it myself. I want my end to be self wrought and deliberate. I want to be everything that emotion based fears won't permit me to be, everything that everyone else is too afraid to be. I will do what the others are afraid to do. I admire fear, fear driven by evidence, by reasoning. It's proven itself useful. But when you let instinct, emotion, tell you what to do, you're letting a bodily function that is a product of evolution by natural selection command your actions. Useful. Natural. Why do I take issue with it?

Because our minds are capable of more, and the results are abound. I have the chance to end all suffering as I know it, as my perception permits.

Part of me doing this is that I must separate myself from accepted thought. It's too infectious, my very brain is hard wired by evolution to accept the consensus, because it's useful for survival and reproduction! Which brings up the main and recurring theme of my end: What if I don't want to survive and reproduce?

So yes, part of this is you all, just the reality that I am alone in these thoughts and ideas. I don't even have to ask, and unfortunately, I have many reasons not to.

I also have many reasons to take my life. For one, I am curious and eager to not feel anything, to not see anything, to not taste anything, to not smell anything, to not think anything. I also find it very difficult to compare existence with nonexistence, because there is this quality of perfection evident in nonexistence that is undeniable. It is simply impossible to have any qualms about not existing. It's not that one has qualms that cannot be communicated, they simply cannot feel any suffering, at all. This absolute lack of suffering is hard to refute but people fight the idea with such vigor and I can't seem to understand why. Maybe they cannot imagine themselves in a state of non perception.

So I guess what I'm saying is: there is no reason not to kill oneself if it can be done in a painless and efficient manner. One who no longer exists has absolutely nothing to complain about.

On the other hand, I suffer daily. So who cares if the joy outweighs the suffering? (Though I can assure you, in my particular case, it does not.)

You can compare joy and suffering, but it's difficult to compare joy with nothingness. Nothingness is most certainly not somewhere between joy and suffering. It's something different altogether.

So yes, I am ready to go. I grow all the more ready with each day that passes. I believe this inclination to be neither a vice nor virtue, but a preference.

[brekfustuvluzerz]

hey, kevin, that story is from dane cooks vicious circle hbo special (i know you've been informed). what should be noted is at the bottom of your post, you put the words "true story." im not trying to call you out or embarrass you at all, but this is a great example of how religion is propagated. you had no other reason to believe this story except for the fact that you heard it, thought it was funny, and (maybe subconsciously) were aware of how the story's validity being called into question might take away from the humor. so you put those words on your post to keep that from happening. isnt this what people who buy into religion do. they hear a story, like what it has to offer them personally (the opportunity to spread a laugh in your case [harmless]), and will stretch the truth or exaggerate the validity of the story when passing it to others so as not to take away from the weight it carries. i find this facet of human behavior to be fascinating. we all do it naturally, but it is our responsibility as critical thinkers to be aware of our transgressions and to correct the behavior. start practicing more cynicism in future conversations, especially with this kid.

[Wechtlein Uns]

That suicide note was very interesting to me, dodgecity. While I find it perfectly understandable that the normal man fears death, I wonder what kind of person would actively encourage it in themselves. This is because there seems to be some profound connection with evolution and survival of the fittest. In this case, she did not want to reproduce, and therefore committed suicide. While this is tragic and poetic, it also means that her child would not exist to partake of the same fate, which I wonder if it would had it been born.

Previously, I had subscribed to a type of immortality in my line of thinking, drawn from various ideas from mystycism and conciousness. Basically, if it was true that I as a self did not exist even now, then couldn't that mean that there are no lives to destroy? Of course their are lives to destroy. To kill. To die. But it seemed to me that in the greater scheme of things that there is either conciousness, or there is not. If I am not concious, then I do not exist. But I may still feel conciousness, so long as conciousness exists, either within myself or in the self of another. In that sense I felt that I would continue to experience forever, in the sense that as long as their is conciousness, I shall be apart of it, even if the "I" that is, is no longer the "I" that was.

This seems very poetic and natural to me. It's the only way I can wrap my head around death. What it means. What it feels like. This girl couldn't wrap her head around death, and so she decided to kill herself. I am afraid of the prospect that maybe, if I had not been able to find a way to wrap my head around death, that I might have done the same.

[nikkixsugar]

I have had/I do have the exact same thoughts on this as you do.. Especially when it comes to Christians fearing death.
BUT
I do got to say this:
There is this really religious kid that I know, he's pretty cool. He was telling me and this other kid (He knows I'm basically an Atheist, and the other kid is really Christian to, but me and him talk about it and he doesn't care) about what happened to him in Kroger:

This guy sneezed, and the kid say "God bless you".
The guy turned around and said, "I'm an Atheist"
The kid said, "I was just saying God bless you because I can't bless you"
The Atheist said, "Well what do you think will happen to you after you die"?
The kid turned around and said, "I believe that if I have lived a good life, that I will go to Heaven. What do you believe"?
The Atheist said, "I believe that when I am dead I will be buried, and I will decompose and turn into a great Oak in the woods"
(THE FUNNY PART) the kid said, "Well when you turn into a great Oak, you will be cut down and chopped into smaller pieces where you will be sent to a factory and turned into paper, which they make the Bible out of!"
The guy then said nothing and walked away

^^Thought it was on-subject and funny :p
True story

Actually, Dane Cook said this, which prompted my immediate hatred of him. lol.

[dodgecity]

@Wechtlein Uns: Although I can't really speak for the author, it seems to me as if you are seriously misinterpreting the meaning.

In this case, she did not want to reproduce, and therefore committed suicide.

Reproduction is a side note, she also said she did not want to survive. Why would you overlook that, it's like the recurring theme of the note. She seemed to understand that she had a different agenda than her designer, evolution, and she decided to pursue her agenda, which was to end her suffering. Also, it is not tragic at all when someone is never born. That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. There are an infinite number of people that are never conceived. For them never to exist is not tragic.

This girl couldn't wrap her head around death, and so she decided to kill herself.

What has always amazed me about this note is how well the girl understood death. I sometimes wish I had that Vulcan-like, emotion forfeiting logic at my disposal.

But it seemed to me that in the greater scheme of things that there is either conciousness, or there is not. If I am not concious, then I do not exist. But I may still feel conciousness, so long as conciousness exists, either within myself or in the self of another. In that sense I felt that I would continue to experience forever, in the sense that as long as their is conciousness, I shall be apart of it, even if the "I" that is, is no longer the "I" that was.

This is of course the most bothersome part of your post because it's nonsensical. You're attempting to calculate the accuracy of a belief by measuring the positive or negative personal effects that belief will have on you. The personal implications of a belief have no bearing, whatsoever, on the accuracy of that belief.

If you still don't understand how the personal implications are exclusively consequential yet irrelevant in terms of accuracy, keep contemplating the idea. I will make a thread further explicating it today, if I feel I have anything else to offer.

This girl couldn't wrap her head around death, and so she decided to kill herself. I am afraid of the prospect that maybe, if I had not been able to find a way to wrap my head around death, that I might have done the same.

So yes, part of this is you all, just the reality that I am alone in these thoughts and ideas.

I really find it offensive how to try to put yourself above the girl intellectually. Don't you understand that when she says you all, she is talking about people with your self serving mindset?