The Paradox of the Biblical God

Titan · November 03, 2008, 09:37:38 PM

Pretext
1. Because the nature of this argument concerns supposedly contradictory elements of the Bible in relation to itself and morality as we conceive it, I will be assuming the Bible is true. I am not using circular reason because I do not intend to prove the validity of the Bible in this argument. Instead I wish merely to prove that the Bible is not NOT true in this circumstance (applicable double negative).
2. I use C.S. Lewis a lot because he was an atheist turned Christian with a gift for words and I'm currently reading two of his books, so the information is still fresh in my mind.
3. The basis of this discussion is concerning what the Bible argues for in terms of genocide, murder and the like. For this reason I will attempt to establish a cohesive structure of passages and verses that put contrary verses in light and work towards a conception of morality that we are more inclined to agree with.

I would like to put up a few quotes on the subject, if that is okay:

Immediately Relevant
"To ask that God's love should be content with us as we are is to ask that God should cease to be God: because He is what He is, His love must, in the nature of things, be impeded and repelled by certain stains in our present character, and because He already loves us He must labour to make us loveable... What we would here and now call our 'happiness' is not the end God chiefly has in view: but when we are such as He can love without impediment, we shall in fact be happy."
- C.S. Lewis "The Problem of Pain"

"If God is wiser than we His judgment must differ from ours on many things, and not least on good and evil. What seems to us good may therefore not be good in His eyes, and what seems to us evil may not be evil."
- C.S. Lewis "The Problem of Pain"

"My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?"
- C.S. Lewis "Mere Christianity"

Relevant Later
"The problem of reconciling human suffering with the existence of a God who loves, is only insoluble as long as we attach a trivial meaning to the word 'love,' and look on things as if man were the center of them. Man is not the center. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."
- C.S. Lewis "The Problem of Pain"

Body

What the question will hinge on is this: How can a God who is all loving
1. Commit the "barbaric" acts of the Old Testament.
2. Condone slavery
3. Be related to the forgiving God of the New Testament.
4. Establish a system of morality that disagrees with things some of us may believe are right like homosexuality.
5. (Addition) Not appear to love/value men and women equally.

I will begin with the first one and work my way through it but if you want me to add more to the list of things I must answer I would be more than happy to do so.

Whitney · November 04, 2008, 01:49:50 AM

I have another to add. There are many places in the bible which either imply or directly state that women should take a subservient role to men. So, it would be good to address why a loving god does not appear to love/value men and women equally.

Asmodean · November 04, 2008, 02:05:47 AM

Quote from: "laetusatheos"I have another to add. There are many places in the bible which either imply or directly state that women should take a subservient role to men. So, it would be good to address why a loving god does not appear to love/value men and women equally.

Because while kind, loving and understanding, his omniness is not a feminist. Those are, as we all well know, of the devil

Titan · November 04, 2008, 02:07:13 AM

That's an excellent one, I'll edit it to include that...That being said is there one you guys want me to defend firs?

Whitney · November 04, 2008, 02:52:19 AM

I think that 4 would be a good start since you will likely have to discuss it in order to approach 1,2,3,and 5

Titan · November 04, 2008, 03:40:12 AM

Well, that question is either going to have a really simple solution or it is going to tie into the discussion going on in the Philosophy section.

Kyuuketsuki · November 04, 2008, 10:59:31 AM

Titan,

I don't think you can consider your God's love in isolation ... from my young Christian years the biblical god is supposed to be all loving (perfect love), all knowing and all powerful and I think the contradiction between your god's supposedly perfect love lies in it's inability to love us perfectly when it has such power and prescience.

Kyu

Titan · November 04, 2008, 05:05:33 PM

A valid point Kyu, did you read the quotes I posted? If you still disagree I will try to weave an answer to your question into the topic as a whole.

Sophus · November 04, 2008, 09:13:08 PM

According to the church God's love is unconditional. True love values mercy over justice. Therefore God cannot be a just God and a loving God. I do not desire anyobody to suffer hell. I know that if I were almighty I would do anything I could to insure that no one would go to hell. Certainly not if they were my children. That being said how can a mere humans love exceed that of an unconditional loving, supernatural being's?

Quote"If God is wiser than we His judgment must differ from ours on many things, and not least on good and evil. What seems to us good may therefore not be good in His eyes, and what seems to us evil may not be evil."

Doesn't this statement completely contradict his crux in The Case for a Creator where he claims that because we have the knowledge of right and wrong (the conscience) a higher power wishes for us to know what right and wrong is? Lewis just shot himself in the foot with that one.

Quote"My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?"

It is because of this I argue that C.S. Lewis was never actually an atheist. He was raised a theist so God was connected with his conscience. In his early life he rebelled because of a feeling such as this rather than an actual well thought out conclusion based on intellect for why there is no God. He claimed to be an atheist because he wished there was no God, not because he knew there was not one.

Kyuuketsuki · November 04, 2008, 10:05:21 PM

Quote from: "Titan"A valid point Kyu, did you read the quotes I posted? If you still disagree I will try to weave an answer to your question into the topic as a whole.

LOL ... I would disagree with virtually anything Lewis has to say on the subject of his god.

Kyu

Titan · November 08, 2008, 05:42:34 PM

QuoteAccording to the church God's love is unconditional. True love values mercy over justice. Therefore God cannot be a just God and a loving God. I do not desire anyobody to suffer hell. I know that if I were almighty I would do anything I could to insure that no one would go to hell. Certainly not if they were my children. That being said how can a mere humans love exceed that of an unconditional loving, supernatural being's?

Saying that if you were almighty you would do something is rather irrational since, if you were indeed omniscient along with the plethora of powers you would not necessarily believe in the same things you do now. I don't believe your last statement is true in any sense of it, from an empirical standpoint and from a religious standpoint.

QuoteDoesn't this statement completely contradict his crux in The Case for a Creator where he claims that because we have the knowledge of right and wrong (the conscience) a higher power wishes for us to know what right and wrong is? Lewis just shot himself in the foot with that one.

Not quite. You see, what C.S. Lewis is arguing is that for God, his perspective is complete. Mankind's perspective is limited and therefore, from a limited perspective, we are bound to get things wrong on a variety of issues. However, in Case for a Creator the argument will be tying in with the mere recognition of truth as evidence for a God. Do you see the difference? One is the complete version of the other, which is simply superficial in comparison.

QuoteIt is because of this I argue that C.S. Lewis was never actually an atheist. He was raised a theist so God was connected with his conscience. In his early life he rebelled because of a feeling such as this rather than an actual well thought out conclusion based on intellect for why there is no God. He claimed to be an atheist because he wished there was no God, not because he knew there was not one.

Obviously, as an atheist you would have to have evidence to COUNTER the evidence that he was at one time an atheist. I'm sure you of all people wouldn't make such a claim without proper support.

QuoteLOL ... I would disagree with virtually anything Lewis has to say on the subject of his god.

Obviously...he BELIEVES in God. I'm sure the same thing is true for me. Did you read the quote I was talking about?

Kyuuketsuki · November 08, 2008, 08:04:55 PM

Quote from: "Titan"Obviously...he BELIEVES in God. I'm sure the same thing is true for me. Did you read the quote I was talking about?

The ones you posted yes, any in the url no ... as a matter of personal policy I don't DO theist url's, I've been disappointed every single time I have done so. .

Kyu

Titan · November 08, 2008, 08:40:46 PM

Yeah, I was talking about the one in the post. It should have addressed the objection you brought up.

Kyuuketsuki · November 08, 2008, 08:43:14 PM

Quote from: "Titan"Yeah, I was talking about the one in the post. It should have addressed the objection you brought up.

What that I disagree with Lewis?

Kyu

Titan · November 08, 2008, 08:46:50 PM

No, that this quote: "To ask that God's love should be content with us as we are is to ask that God should cease to be God: because He is what He is, His love must, in the nature of things, be impeded and repelled by certain stains in our present character, and because He already loves us He must labour to make us loveable... What we would here and now call our 'happiness' is not the end God chiefly has in view: but when we are such as He can love without impediment, we shall in fact be happy" answers your first point.

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The Paradox of the Biblical God