I'm conflicted.

[jrosebud]

My best friend announced to me yesterday that she was going to become a vegetarian.  I've thought long and hard about the issue in the past, but decided that, even though I agreed with many of the arguments for going veggie, I just can't do it.

If objecting to animal products on the grounds that animals are treated badly during their lives, ideally one aught to be vegan (in my opinion), as the production of milk and eggs often results in the same living conditions.  So J attempted to be vegan for a day.  Once she learned that she'd have to give up most kinds of alcohol (since a good chunk of it is processed with some sort of animal product), she relented.  Now she's going to try to be a vegetarian.

I can agree with the arguments for being vegan, but being a lacto-ova veggie seems off to me (if simply for the reason of animal treatment issues).  I'm finding it hard to support her.

The biggest reason behind my less-than-stellar show of support is identical to my reason for remaining an omnivore: I can't deal with the bad associations it inevitably brings up.  I already have so many happy occasions and traditions from my childhood that have soured in light of my newly-embraced Atheism.  I'm not sure that I can add all of my memories of going out for ice cream or sharing Thanksgiving turkey hot off the bird to the mix.

J's new project has drudged up a lot of conflicted feelings.  She's not the kind of person to judge others, but it's going to be harder to hang out with her now.  Most of our get-togethers center around food; even though she won't explicitly say, "you're a bad person for eating animal products," that issue is always going to be there and I'm going to feel akward enjoying them in her presence.  Every time she orders cheese with her salad, I'm going to automatically think about how the cow that made the milk for the cheese will eventually become the hamburger she won't eat.  And there's an added layer of discomfort to our past good memories; I can't think about the bone china that she bought me for my birthday without the recounting her new objections to it.

I know it's her decision and that she's trying to do something positive in her life, so I'm trying to keep my mouth shut.  It's just affecting me negatively, especially since she was one of two people in my life with whom I felt I could completely be myself.

Anyone else get where I'm coming from or experienced the situation from the opposite side?

[curiosityandthecat]

I live in a liberal college town in the middle of the Appalachian mountains, so I run into vegetarian, nature-trail-walking, good-intentioned people all the time. I, for the most part, ignore the differences and occasionally tease them about not being able to enjoy bacon.

Here, send J. this:
[youtube:2mw186hn]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN8Ne2_D_DQ[/youtube:2mw186hn]

Basically, just tell J that if she wants to really make a difference, she should look into the businesses that produce the products, not the products, themselves.

[Whitney]

Has your friend expressed that she feels that everyone who eats meat is meaning to do harm?  If not, I wouldn't worry about it.  Most vegetarians (in my experience) follow that lifestyle because it meets their own emotional needs, not necessarily because they find meat eating to be universaly immoral.  After all, and as you said, if she really objected to it on moral grounds vegan would be the only way to go.

I personally find the way some farmers treat their animals to be abhorent.  At the same time I have also found that it is very difficult to even be vegetarian due to both my personal tastes and that of my husbands.  So, I think a more practical solution would be to attempt not to buy from companies who practice inhumane treatment of food animals.  In reality, a cow doesn't know it is about to die and wouldn't suffer at all if it were killed properly.  In fact, we can make them suffer less than those who had to hunt them with more primitive means.  If there is a real ethical issue, it's that we have allowed our growing consumption habits to lead to a system where animals unnecessarily suffer in order to provide a ready supply of meat, eggs, etc.

From what you have said, it sounds like your friend may need to continue thinking about what has driven her decision (considering she has already retreated from veganism).  I wouldn't worry about her being a militant veggitarian...those who are that way would have just given up the animal based alcholic products.

I have a couple friends who are vegetarian/vegan and haven't experienced any instances of feeling shamed by eating meat in front of them.  The only thing it affects is trying to consider their needs when picking out a restaurant.

[NoFearNoLimits]

I don't know how many of you have seen the documentary Earthlings.  It's one of the most sad, and depressing things i've ever seen.    I don't see how your friend being a vegetarian would affect your friendship.  It's pretty hard to avoid every single food product that caused some form of animal suffering.  So i'm guessing your friend is just trying to do her part to help make a difference.  I don't see why she would blame you in any way for not doing the same.

I made a video with some clips from Earhlings, but it's not for the squeamish.  It's on animal suffering, and how humans pretty much destroy everything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRq8INpTN7Q

[jrosebud]

Thanks for the input, guys. I think that J has good intentions, but hardly ever thinks issues through.

I *can* see how a vegan would think that using animal products is immoral for everyone, even though s/he may not be evangelical about it (just as one might consider killing children to be universally deplorable).  And it sounds like J, deep down, wants to be vegan for good reasons; she just can't make that commitment, so she's experimenting to find what level of commitment she can maintain while still enjoying her life as much as possible.  I suppose I'm much the same.  And now that she's brought the issue to the foreground, my inner demons are resurfacing.

I have no qualms about eating meat or wearing leather shoes as long as the animals aren't kept in hell-holes and are killed humanely; it's just hard for the consumer, in many cases, to know how the former cows/pigs/etc were treated.  Time to redouble my efforts to eat at home and buy from cruelty-free sources as often as I can.

[Jolly Sapper]

I didn't see any explanations of why your friend decided to go veg-head.  So unless you start getting hounded about hearing the screams of the meat you are eating, I'd not worry too much about it.  At the same time, don't get offended if she asks that you try not to contaminate her salad with a meat juice covered fork.

As far as food related gatherings goes, my wife is a vegetarian of a fashion (she eats fish, diary and eggs).  Its not really that big of a deal at family gatherings.  Most of the time there are salads and vegetable platters out anyways and if she wants something else we just bring some stuff that she can eat (salmon, Bocca patties, Quorn patties, stuff like that).  She doesn't have a problem with me being a scavenger (i don't hunt and kill my own food, i get mine "aged" like most other normal consumers from the grocery store). I make it easy for her though, I don't eat meat very often.  I view it more of a treat than a vital part of my diet.

Her reason for going veg-head?  She worked in a turkey house one summer when she was in high school.  After seeing the body condition of what was going to the slaughter facility, then doing some research into the "conventional" practices used to supply meat at the grocery store, she decided to quit eating all meat except for salmon.  

She tried going vegan, but it was expensive (vegan chocolate ice cream isn't cheap).. and she gained like 10 or 15 pounds from all of the bread she'd eat to keep herself from feeling hungry.

By the way, milk cows aren't slaughtered for human consumption.  On the small scale, it would be a waste of a cow (offspring and milk).  On the large scale, milk cows were bread to produce milk, not have lots of meat for us scavengers to eat.  

Goats are the same way, there are breeds used for meat and others for milking that look very different.  We've got a small mixed heard of goats, and the one dame that's a milk breed looks like skin and bones no matter how much food she eats.  The rest of the goats will look like they are about to explode after an hour or two of browsing.

[quizlixx]

i'm a vegetarian, partially because of how animals that are raised for slaughter are treated and partially for health reasons.

[Asmodean]

i'm a vegetarian, partially because of how animals that are raised for slaughter are treated and partially for health reasons.

[rlrose328]

i'm a vegetarian, partially because of how animals that are raised for slaughter are treated and partially for health reasons.

What, no booze?  

[jrosebud]

Jolly, from what I've read, milk cows are killed (and used as meat) after approximately four years when their milk supply dwindles.  And the calves are often sold as veal shortly after they're born.

J's reasons for going veg are all ethics-based.  If it were for health purposes, I would see the matter differently.

[Asmodean]

What, no booze?