Historical Jesus -He nor his followers didn't create a new r

[andersbranderud]

This post we about the historical Jesus . who was he? Did he or his followers create a new religion? According to historical scholarship [sources: see at the bottom of this post] he practised what corresponds to today’s Orthodox Judaism all his life. His followers were called Netzarim â€" that is Hebrew [it means offshoot (of a olive tree)] and is a name in the Jewish Bible that is used for Messiah.

During the first century those who practised Judaism were very devoted their religion. Just like King David and all other Jews throughout history they practised Torah (Instruction) â€" the Instructions of the Creator â€" with joy! The most prominent university professors in this field Prof. Elisha Qimron , author of the most authoritative treatise on 4Q MMT, demonstrates that all three of the major sects of first century Judaism followed both written and oral Torah.

Louis Feldman (”The Omnipresence of the G*od-Fearers,” Biblical Archaeology Review, 1986.09-10, p. 45, 58ff) observes: “the Jews were apparently extraordinarily successful in winning converts”

 Year 7 B.C.E Ribi Yehoshua were born in Bethlehem. His father name was Yoseiph and his mothers name was Miryam. His parents were practising Jews.
According to world-recognized authorities in this area Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee (a Torah-practising Jewish group - who according to 4Q MMT practised both written and oral Torah). As the earliest church historians, most eminent modern university historians, our web site (The only authentic Netzarim - i.e. in Ra'anana in Israel led by Paqid Yirmeyahu ha-Tzadiq) and our Khavruta (Distance Learning) texts confirm, the original teachings of Ribi Yehoshua were not only accepted by most of the Pharisaic Jewish community, he had hoards of Jewish students.

He took care of sick and made it popular among the masses to pray in what corresponds to today’s Orthodox synagogues. The genealogically non-priest, Hellenist “Wicked Priest” Temple-Sadducees felt that their power was threaten by Ribi Yehoshua. They decided to get him crucified by the Romans. The Romans convicted and crucified Ribi Yehoshua year 30 C.E.

Ribi Yehoshua’s followers Netzarim were expelled from Jerusalem 135 C.E: together with all other Jews. The first Christian bishop Markos replaced the fifteenth leader of Netzarim Yehudah, ha-Tzadiq. This Christian bishop didn’t have permission to do this. What the Paul the apostate and later the founder of Christianity did was to take some concepts that Ribi Yehoshua had taught; they Hellenized the concepts and included them in the religion which they practiced â€" Hellenism â€" the religion of the Greeks. (Sources: See Ecclesiastical History (EH IV.v.1-4; EH V.xii.1) )

Anyone educated in this field knows that the only sect of Judaism that had rabbis was the Pharisee and even the Christian NT described him as a rabbi. Parkes, Bagatti, Wilson, Charlesworth; all world-recognized authorities in this area leave no doubt that Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee, of the school of Hileil - who was also Pharisee. There is no serious dispute about that among scholars in the field. Ribi Yehoshua taught in "synagogues"; which were a strictly Pharisee institution.

Following the teachings of the Judaic Mâshiakh (Messiah) Ribi Yehoshua â€" that is doing one’s utmost to practice the 613 commandments of Torah - also brings the inner joy, purpose and happiness of working intimately with him to bring about, and participate in, the Messianic era, enjoying a higher level of communion with ha-Sheim - the Creator - as party to Yirmeyâhu's (Jeremiah’s) New Covenant.

If you want to learn about the Historical Ribi Yehoshua, whom Orthodox Jews can live with (witness the Netzarim Jews in Raanana, Israel, members in good standing in an Orthodox synagogue), you must start with books like How Jesus Became Christian by Prof. Barrie Wilson (most bookstores) and Who Are The Netzarim? (publ. Schueller House) by Israeli Orthodox Jew, Paqid Yirmeyahu Ben-David.

From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav of Netzarim (The only authentic Netzarim - i.e. in Ra'anana in Israel led by Paqid Yirmeyahu ha-Tzadiq) who are follower of Ribi Yehoshua - Messiah - in Orthodox Judaism

[myleviathan]

So, what you're claiming is that the Jesus character is actually based on a Pharisee named Yehoshua? That's very interesting. I haven't heard this theory before.

[Kawano]

thats a very interesting theory. and it seems to make more sense than the explanation of christ offered in, for example, zietgiest.

if your theory is correct then it would be the ultimate "elvis/tupac is still alive" story.
but it stands to reason that the christian myth could have come from a story that wouldn't be that different from say, Martin Luther's.
an orothdox rabbi who took a stand against corruption of his faith, and against the current religious leaders of the time. and for his defiance he was sentenced to die and be tortured. Then his followers and students, unable to fully cope with the loss of they're leader, romanticize and fabricate alot of miracles, teachings, biography, ect. and with many great leaders, when they are killed, well we like to still believe that they are alive.

You see I do think that the MAN Yeshua was a real historical figure. BUT, not what the bible made him out to be. he was probably a very level headed, loving, charitable priest who really cared about the people of his faith. We have seen other like him within the past century. Martin Luther King Jr, Gandhi, ect; and like them he was killed for trying to help the world.

[Will]

Even after researching it a lot, I'm still not convinced there's any reliable extra-biblical evidence demonstrating the existence of Jesus (who's name would have actually been Yeshua bin Yoseph, or Joshua son of Joseph). He may have existed, but so might the celestial teacup. The whole thing could just be a work of fiction by Thomas, Mary, and/or John (or a ghost writer).

[Jolly Sapper]

hmm.. I thought there were some pretty serious similarities between Gilgamesh and Jesus's story in the bible.  

[andersbranderud]

myleviathan,

No one can follow two polar-opposite masters â€" the authentic, historical, PRO-Torah 1st-century Ribi from Nazareth and the 4th-century (post-135 C.E.), arch-antithesis ANTI-Torah apostasy developed by the Hellenists (namely the Sadducees and Roman pagans who conspired to kill Ribi YÓ™hoshua, displaced his original followers and redacted the NT).

Any encyclopedia recognized in leading universities (as contrasted with Christian-authored "summaries" that gloss over the apostasy) will provide eye-popping, breath-taking, revelations concerning the birth of Christianity and the Church and how it, and the savior-image it developed, became the arch-opposites of the first century historical Ribi YÓ™hoshua of Nazareth and his original NÓ™tzarim disciples.

Perhaps even more tragically, since the Roman Hellenists usurped the 15th NÓ™tzarim Paqid in 135 C.E., non-Jews have had no opportunity to follow the authentic, historical, Ribi YÓ™hoshua as Mashiakh. Presented with only the apostate (fourth-century Hellenist-redacted) image â€" Jesus Christ â€" Jews have rightly rejected the Christian distortion. For the first time since 135 C.E. , now there is an opportunity for both Jews and non-Jews who wish to follow the authentic, historical, Ribi YÓ™hoshua as Mashiakh to do so.

From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel (www.netzarim.co.il â€" source of above quotes) who are followers of Ribi Yehoshua â€" Messiah â€" in Orthodox Judaism

[myleviathan]

Perhaps even more tragically, since the Roman Hellenists usurped the 15th NÓ™tzarim Paqid in 135 C.E., non-Jews have had no opportunity to follow the authentic, historical, Ribi YÓ™hoshua as Mashiakh. Presented with only the apostate (fourth-century Hellenist-redacted) image â€" Jesus Christ â€" Jews have rightly rejected the Christian distortion.

It sounds like a very interesting theory, and I agree that the majority of the Christian New Testament is a redaction - but, like most here, I'm also an atheist. Is there any more reason to believe the Torah is the inspired word of God over the New Testament? It can be argued that the Torah is a redaction, too.

[Asmodean]

There is no conclusive evidence to prove the existence of Jesus the cruicified prophet, let alone Jesus the son of god. Even if we assume that Jesus did exist, how do we know that he was what he claimed he was and that the whole NT is not a collection of fantasy stories?

[andersbranderud]

Asmodean,

To deny the existence of the historical person Ribi Yehoshua is truly silly.
The historical Ribi Yehoshua was a human; he was the Jewish Mashiakh (Messiah). He didn’t do anything that breaks the natural laws!!

Anyone educated in this field knows that the only sect of Judaism that had rabbis was the Pharisee and even the Christian NT described him as a rabbi. Parkes, Bagatti, Wilson, Charlesworth; all world-recognized authorities in this area leave no doubt that Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee, of the school of Hileil - who was also Pharisee. There is no serious dispute about that among scholars in the field. Ribi Yehoshua taught in "synagogues"; which were a strictly Pharisee institution.

•  The earliest extant Church historian, Eusebius further documented (EH III.xxvii.4-6) that the original NÓ™tzarim accepted only the Jewish Tana"kh as Bible and only The Netzarim ("their own") Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) as an authentic account of the life and teachings of Ribi YÓ™hoshua, never accepting the the 2nd-4th century, heavily gentile-redacted (Greek), NT.

From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel (*link removed*) who are followers of Ribi Yehoshua â€" Messiah â€" in Orthodox Judaism

[andersbranderud]

myleviathan,

You say: “It can be argued that the Torah is a redaction,”
You will find no Scholars in leading universites that argues that Torah has been redacted.
If you compare scrolls of parts of Tan’’kh â€" the Jewish Bible â€" found in Qumran and scrolls found 1000 years ago you will find that is not redacted..
Therefore if you want’ to argue that Tan’’kh is redacted the burden of proof is on you!

Before a proof of that Torah is the Instructions of the Creator of the universe a proof of the existence of a Creator of the universe is needed.

It is NOT merely a choice of belief. Matter exists. Scientists concur that matter is ultimately composed of a combination of pure forces (quarks) emanating from a Prime Force, i.e. a Singularity. Stated conversely, that Singularity is responsible for everything physical in the universe, all matter and all laws governing matter. Nor can any intelligent person escape the conclusion that the universe manifests, at every turn, intelligent design; of an intelligence far exceeding our own. Thus we unavoidably encounter a super-intelligent Singularity. The most eminent scientists, including physicists, acknowledge that even though they're uncomfortable with how theologians distort it.

Moreover, it isn't logically defensible to state that "it is impossible for anyone to completely prove that there is or isn't a Creator." At best, you can only state that you don't know of such a proof. In fact, such a proof exists.
Thus I offer the following proof that there is a Singularity-Creator, the well recognized reductio ad absurdum proof (proof by disproof).

Assume: There is no Singularity (Creator).
Therefore: There is no matter nor physical universe that conform to the known physical laws.
Point of fact: There is matter and a physical universe that conform to the known physical laws. (Contradiction proves the antithesis of the assumption; i.e. proof by disproof).
Therefore: There is a Singularity (Creator)!

To dispute this proof, one must find and prove that the laws governing the universe are, in fact, different from the known laws governing the universe (a daunting task indeed) AND provide an alternative explanation for its existence not requiring a Singularity-Creator.

So, in fact, those who ASSUME there is no Creator, contrary to all evidence (every atom and quark that exists in the universe) and proof, are the ones who are blind ignorant.
This proof also demonstrates that the argument to ignore all of the evidence in the universe that witness a Singularity-Creator is argument ad ignorantiam , the appeal to ignorance and evasion of the burden of proof. The onus is upon whomever would argue to dismiss all of the known laws of the universe and its implications to prove their case, not for those whose views are in harmony with all of the known laws of the universe and its implications to prove the argument ad ignorantiam wrong. Ad ignorantiam is wrong prima facie , by definition as a well-recognized logical fallacy.

Quote from: Paqid Yirmeyahu ha-Tzadiq â€" http://www.netzarim.co.il

From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel, who are followers of Ribi Yehoshua â€" Messiah â€" in Orthodox Judaism

[Asmodean]

Asmodean,

To deny the existence of the historical person Ribi Yehoshua is truly silly.
The historical Ribi Yehoshua was a human; he was the Jewish Mashiakh (Messiah). He didn’t do anything that breaks the natural laws!!

Oh, I did not deny the existence of Yahooshoe, just stated that there is no evidence that can possibly prove that there was ever anything out of the ordinary (except mayhaps some massive schizophrenia or some such) about him and if he was just an ordinary goat herder (or a priest, for that matter), then why should we care if he existed at all?  

Anyone educated in this field knows that the only sect of Judaism that had rabbis was the Pharisee and even the Christian NT described him as a rabbi. Parkes, Bagatti, Wilson, Charlesworth; all world-recognized authorities in this area leave no doubt that Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee, of the school of Hileil - who was also Pharisee. There is no serious dispute about that among scholars in the field. Ribi Yehoshua taught in "synagogues"; which were a strictly Pharisee institution.

...Interesting. When it comes to Judaism, I must say I'm somewhat uneducated.

•  The earliest extant Church historian, Eusebius further documented (EH III.xxvii.4-6) that the original NÓ™tzarim accepted only the Jewish Tana"kh as Bible and only The Netzarim ("their own") Hebrew Matityahu (NHM) as an authentic account of the life and teachings of Ribi YÓ™hoshua, never accepting the the 2nd-4th century, heavily gentile-redacted (Greek), NT.

From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel (ww.netzarim.co.il) who are followers of Ribi Yehoshua â€" Messiah â€" in Orthodox Judaism

So... Christians follow Jesus for uh... Allegedly distilling wine, walking on water, doing some healing and that sort of somewhat-entertaining nonsense. What makes your guy worth following thousands of years after his death?

[Will]

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